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Thread: Psychological disorders confounding type identification

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    Question Psychological disorders confounding type identification

    I know I've brought this up before, and didn't receive much (any) constructive input to the topic. So, let's try again (this time with concrete RL examples)!

    Psychological disorders must confound the typing process, making it difficult/impossible/reducing overall certainty of type. Case in point, I used to be 90-95% sure my girlfriend was ISFj. She has rapid cycling bipolar II, we were in a long-distance relationship for 6 months of our 9 month (ongoing) relationship, and we have been living together for about a month. During the last few months, I've become less certain of her type. It's supremely difficult to differentiate her "normal" state from her hypomanic states, and I'm not sure I've witnessed a "normal" state in her; she was in a depressive episode for the first 5-6 months of our relationship, and has been more or less hypomanic since. Because we started dating during her last depressive episode, I had only that state to utilize for typing purposes. Now that she's been hypomanic, our interactions are not that of activity, but of some unknown interaction (and I'm not willing to attribute that change to the changes in our relationship, i.e. being POSSLQ and no longer in a LDR, because I noticed the change while we were still in a LDR). She's classically hypomanic, she doesn't sleep much, she's very irritable, she makes extravagant/impulsive plans, and seems always on the verge of making a major and unnecessary purchase. She seems very much unlike an ISFj, although I cannot at this time suggest an alternative typing.

    Discuss.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    Psychological disorders must confound the typing process, making it difficult/impossible/reducing overall certainty of type.
    Why? Why wouldn't it make it easier instead? Do you have any empirical ground for the claim you are making here?

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    I used to be 90-95% sure my girlfriend was ISFj.
    Based on what?

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    Because we started dating during her last depressive episode, I had only that state to utilize for typing purposes. Now that she's been hypomanic, our interactions are not that of activity, but of some unknown interaction (and I'm not willing to attribute that change to the changes in our relationship, i.e. being POSSLQ and no longer in a LDR, because I noticed the change while we were still in a LDR).
    How on earth could you be so sure that your relation was one of Activity, even if she wouldn't have changed her mental state?

    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    She's classically hypomanic, she doesn't sleep much, she's very irritable, she makes extravagant/impulsive plans, and seems always on the verge of making a major and unnecessary purchase. She seems very much unlike an ISFj, although I cannot at this time suggest an alternative typing.
    The only thing we can say for sure is that your case for ISFj seems to be very weak. You haven't made a thorough analysis of her type, and you simply don't know what her real type is. You have to start all over again -- from scratch.

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    Not that I'm a doctor but she doesn't sound rapid-cycling. I'm rapid cycling and I alternate between states in a matter of days, sometimes even over the course of a single day. 5-6 months is actually an incredibly long cycle.

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    Not sure what being either ESI or sanguine has to do with rapid-cycling bipolar disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    oops.

    oh those... i score high like on all of them lol. did you see that post of mine where virtually 85% of all disorders on wiki are mine? went to a psychologist recently and he said i'm neurotic or something. wanted to treat me with hypnotherapy which i'm scared of due to a possibility of him implanting poo-poos into my head.
    I still tend to think you just have poor Se and poor Te and this is why you are somewhat detached from reality which causes your paranoias and neurosis. You don't have enough information about the reality and your imaginative mind makes up stuff to fill in the gaps. Your dual is probably an ST type of some sort.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Not that I'm a doctor but she doesn't sound rapid-cycling. I'm rapid cycling and I alternate between states in a matter of days, sometimes even over the course of a single day. 5-6 months is actually an incredibly long cycle.
    yeah I'd think so too

    according to my abnormal psych text: "... qualify as rapid cycling if the person has experienced at least four episodes within the past year."

    But Bipolar II is milder than Bipolar I, so maybe thats why she doesn't souond like she had the rapid-cycling form

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    you aren't even a qualified professional to say such things. what an embarrassment. sorry, your posts kinda hurt as of late, so i'm gonna have to put you on ignore. sorry............
    haha. It wasn't hard to see this coming sooner or later so what can I say. *shrug*. You have adopted a pattern of shielding yourself from painful reality instead of facing it head on. This is the exact cause of your problems. Whether there is a real mental disorder behind it is impossible to perceive from a distance. Sooner or later you HAVE TO face it because it doesn't go away. You _cannot_ put reality on ignore. You really need to have someone stronger than you around to help you heal. It is getting obvious you cannot do it yourself. Perhaps a professional is the best choice. I still tend to think a strong dual friend could be as good or better but they are hard to find.

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    A past girlfriend of mine - ISFj - had borderline personality disorder. While in the high phase she did seem more irritable and extraverted, her type was out of question. You obviously though cannot type her based on intertype relationships because they do not work when the person has a psychological disorder of that kind, especially when you have to interact with them at a very short distance.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    A past girlfriend of mine - ISFj - had borderline personality disorder. While in the high phase she did seem more irritable and extraverted, her type was out of question. You obviously though cannot type her based on intertype relationships because they do not work when the person has a psychological disorder of that kind, especially when you have to interact with them at a very short distance.
    Boderlines do not experience "phases" in moods unless they have some other condition; personality disorders describe persisting traits. You're describing a mood disorder.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Boderlines do not experience "phases" in moods unless they have some other condition; personality disorders describe persisting traits. You're describing a mood disorder.
    Ah, okay. I have not studied the subject thoroughly, maybe she had something else too.
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    I've had a girlfriend who had seen a psychologist a couple of times and they diagnosed that she was close to bi polar.

    The near bi polar disorder didn't make the typing much more difficult.
    She was an ESFJ, although quite shy sometimes. More then the average ESFJ.

    Although I can imagine with totally different states in the case of the ISFJ it would make it hard to type her correctly.

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    im obssesive and my gf is histrionic.

    EDIT:: anyway, whatever im not useful talking about mental disorder and stuff like that.

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    I've actually been probing recently into the notion that chronic personality disorders (not behavioral disorders) correlate to various forms of sociopathy. Although... sometimes I wonder if that's wise.

    Bottom line: personality disorders are, from a logician's perspective, horribly defined. They are vague and general, reflecting that modern psychology really has no idea what the essence of what it is dealing with is, only that it is disruptive.

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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    I know I've brought this up before, and didn't receive much (any) constructive input to the topic. So, let's try again (this time with concrete RL examples)!

    Psychological disorders must confound the typing process, making it difficult/impossible/reducing overall certainty of type. Case in point, I used to be 90-95% sure my girlfriend was ISFj. She has rapid cycling bipolar II, we were in a long-distance relationship for 6 months of our 9 month (ongoing) relationship, and we have been living together for about a month. During the last few months, I've become less certain of her type. It's supremely difficult to differentiate her "normal" state from her hypomanic states, and I'm not sure I've witnessed a "normal" state in her; she was in a depressive episode for the first 5-6 months of our relationship, and has been more or less hypomanic since. Because we started dating during her last depressive episode, I had only that state to utilize for typing purposes. Now that she's been hypomanic, our interactions are not that of activity, but of some unknown interaction (and I'm not willing to attribute that change to the changes in our relationship, i.e. being POSSLQ and no longer in a LDR, because I noticed the change while we were still in a LDR). She's classically hypomanic, she doesn't sleep much, she's very irritable, she makes extravagant/impulsive plans, and seems always on the verge of making a major and unnecessary purchase. She seems very much unlike an ISFj, although I cannot at this time suggest an alternative typing.

    Discuss.
    To my knowledge socionics was designed around primarily couples and also individuals without diagnosed mental conditions, and as such it can only accurately apply to people without personality or psychological conditions.

    I think an example of this, in regards to the example that you supply, is that in such circumstances Model A is fluid.

    What I mean by this is that the order of the functions in the person will change (or even rotate) .. The person will have dominant Fe for a while, then dominant Si etc..

    Socionics only works if the person has a more stable mental state, therefore a stable Model A = stable type and = stable intertype relations.

    As/if the person gets better, you would expect to see a more normalised personality, and hence there Model A would fall into place---more normalised order of functionality. Their type would then become more apparent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cyclops View Post
    To my knowledge socionics was designed around primarily couples and also individuals without diagnosed mental conditions, and as such it can only accurately apply to people without personality or psychological conditions.

    I think an example of this, in regards to the example that you supply, is that in such circumstances Model A is fluid.

    What I mean by this is that the order of the functions in the person will change (or even rotate) .. The person will have dominant Fe for a while, then dominant Si etc..

    Socionics only works if the person has a more stable mental state, therefore a stable Model A = stable type and = stable intertype relations.

    As/if the person gets better, you would expect to see a more normalised personality, and hence there Model A would fall into place---more normalised order of functionality. Their type would then become more apparent.
    Thanks for providing a constructive and coherent reply. I was thinking somewhat along the same lines of Model A being fluid in the case of mood/personality disorders (because it seems like she's undergone a j/p flip, or something).
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    ISFjs apparently Are very "sanguine".
    *eyes* My ISFj sister is a Melancholy. We _N_ps in the house are Sanguine.
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    Quote Originally Posted by drd252 View Post
    Thanks for providing a constructive and coherent reply.
    Your welcome
    I was thinking somewhat along the same lines of Model A being fluid in the case of mood/personality disorders (because it seems like she's undergone a j/p flip, or something).
    Yeah I think your right.

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    I have had problems with my mental health. I'll try to give a model to describe my experience. And what I can say from my experience is that when my libido (not sexual, but the psychic energy overall) falls down, the psychological structures will fail to work. The libido comes in from the 5th function and makes two rings working. So when the energetic input is gut off, the model A falls apart. So it will start to collide (hope there's a word such). The information inside the functions, will start to vanish. The mental activity becomes distracted because of that. And the libido runs into the painful function, where all the complexes are. So when the painful one has become the dominant function, my mental activity is filled with bad thoughts and I'm very vulnerable.

    That's how schizophrenia goes on in me.

    To start treating myself, I have always tryed to get suggestive input back. And when that has happened, I'll try to enter into the enviroment what supports me with the right information, so I can tank my model A. When I'm fulled enough, I'll be feeling better. And trying to live normal life again.

    But I also go to psychotherapy to get rid of the problems. So if others want to know, you can't do with out it. And I'm using socionics to find theories with the right informational aspects to understand myself. The last one has helped me a lot. And also taught how to act like a socialized person.

    And that's why I have dicided that my recovery plan is to find the permanent socionics enviroment . I personally can't see any other way to get things back into normal.

    So that's one way to solve the mess in your life. And perhaps the model will help someone.

    End of the monologue!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    *eyes* My ISFj sister is a Melancholy. We _N_ps in the house are Sanguine.

    Yeah, I like the sanguine people. You 'll never know what comes next with them. Specially with ENFps. Like singing in streets. Doing some really crazy philosophy based on Terry Pratchet and ending up talking about how well her new clothes feel.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i think this is really good... i wonder if you could post your thoughts on how model A works and any similar thoughts for consideration by the intelligible socionics community registered or not, on this forum. i mean it might really add to socionics. of course i hope by doing it, you will not put excessive strain on yourself.

    Good that my self centered theory didn't feel cold and autistic.

    The model A? Actually I can't explain what it is. Perhaps like this: your type has it's own informational channel to live in and you'll be given the information into your psyche, where it rings, from dominant to the last. F.e your ENFp, then one of your channels might be studying psychology and teaching others (the ring).

    Actually, let's get further. The channels are like social roles. So it's healthy to have good roles. For ENFp, the psychologist, poet, actor, organiser of some events. And when the channel is interupted, problems will come. F.e Ti critics to counseling ENFp. And one's goal is to change the channel back to normal. Like asking ISTp friend siting near by to answer the questions instead.
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    dee: I have met both sanguine and melancholy ISFjs. Of course melancholic and choleric people are worse, both types should be erased from the planet earth, as well as all negativist types.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    no, not at all. it's interesting to learn about new perspectives as it might further add to socionics, typing, comprehension of the essences of how things human work, etc.

    channel, huh? so it's like switching to different dominants and creatives? perhaps any type can fully be any type, but just some types feel more natural?
    I like new perspectives.

    I'll try to explain my channel theory slightly better way.

    Channels have types. F.e with ENFp integral type in psychology. So it's good to live in channels which have identical types to you. But if they can't be identical, they should at least be semidentical. Like ENTp channel for ENFp. But some channels are harder to live in. F.e ESTp channel for ENFp. So one should know wich channels to choose. Don't choose a channel with type of ISFp to yourself when you're ENFp. At least, if you choose, know that you can't be as good as it as you can be in ENFp channel.

    And channels are like lifestiles and you live them by having the right role. F.e confident role in counselling, but keeping it quiet role in math.

    And the model A.

    Perhaps it's like this: if the integral type of the channel is ENFp, then the info circles: Ne- Fi- Se- Ti; Si- Te- Ni- Fe .

    And you use different functions to process the info.

    Dominant Ne has processed the info. Then the creative Fi starts it's work and the ENFp might organize some meeting to teach something, f.e yoga. And so it goes on and on. Untill the cycle has ended and starts again from the dominant.

    That's how I see it. But i just expromt made the whole theory up.
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    Quote Originally Posted by discourse View Post
    Yeah, I like the sanguine people. You 'll never know what comes next with them. Specially with ENFps. Like singing in streets. Doing some really crazy philosophy based on Terry Pratchet and ending up talking about how well her new clothes feel.
    I get onto my mother for bursting into song in random places; worse, it's her own spontaneous compositions. -_- The sad thing is I've just realized I do the same thing, only with already-existing songs. I think I'm more quiet about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    dee: I have met both sanguine and melancholy ISFjs. Of course melancholic and choleric people are worse, both types should be erased from the planet earth, as well as all negativist types.
    Negativist types are necessary. If everyone was allowed to go on with his/her half-baked schemes and do who-knows-what, where would society be? Someone's got to add a dose of realism. Really, I tend to dislike cholerics, but they serve a purpose. No, not skeet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ryene Astraelis View Post
    Negativist types are necessary. If everyone was allowed to go on with his/her half-baked schemes and do who-knows-what, where would society be? Someone's got to add a dose of realism. Really, I tend to dislike cholerics, but they serve a purpose. No, not skeet.
    Disagree. Positivists can absolutely understand when a plan is not good, negativists only reiterate it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Disagree. Positivists can absolutely understand when a plan is not good, negativists only reiterate it.
    Do positivists see the possible problems along the way? That's a pessimist's specialty; many just take it too far.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    wow.

    so do you think that "information flow/hapenning circles" can only be of certain 16 sequence arrangements and that's it?

    Well, when to think about, then yes.

    Crazely postmodern, isn't it?
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    Well, that's how I see the model, not how socionists do.

    I got more ideas to describe my understandings of the model. So you'll need a source of an information to work in. F.e ENFp source. And all the information comes momently into your psyche. But because it's ENFps, all the aspects are not presented equally. And to work in that channel, you will need the energy. The energy is libido , the dual energy. And it flows in yourself all the time. And it's either active or passive. So to step into the channel and start working, you'll switch the energy on. And your psyche processes the information. You do your ENFp cycle. Like explaining the psychology. When that is done, you'll step out and are in passive energetic state. The last one is the dual's channel. You're in your dual's state. So we need dual's around. But they are not batteries, which is absurd. But rather co- channels around to suplement us. And they can give us energy to build a dual channel, which can express culturally very high ideas. F.e ENFp dual channel of religious love.

    But another idea is actually insane, it's that duals can actually create an integral channel and express together symbolically (in Jung's sense) some psychocultural phenomenons, f.e in high level it can be something humane. They together will create the source from the Self and through the cultural phenomenons they express jungian symbolic meanings, like the Wilberian Gaya spirituality, when they are higly intelligent. The last sentence might be absurd, but I can't explain why I see things that way.

    Well these are my ideas. And I really really hope that ENFp examples don't insult Rick. Specially because he's the only real socionist in here and to him my theory might seem really absurd. Specially cause of the pseudosientific way of explaining.

    To illustrate my idea, I'll give you for the end an example. What ever was the name of that main character in the ''Prison brake'', he is a good example of my understanding. When to dualize well, you can live your ''channel life'' in that way. Harmoniously in your natural channel.
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    One thing started to bother me. Perhaps there are people who should know this.

    The function is a describing term, not cognitive.

    So when you analyse yourself, you see yourself doing something. So you see yourself functioning. But that's just self awareness what observes you doing something: thinking, feeling, having a bad memory. So when you have problems with that ''functioning'' you can get help from the cognitive psychology, f.e .

    Socionics function is a describing term. You can see others functioning. F.e you see a man stepping into the restaurant. He starts to explain logically. He speaks rhetoricly well. Knows facts. You momently understand that he is using he's Logic. And that it's natural for him. So it must be the program. But then he gets offended. You see him defending himself. But he feels vulnerable and can't do it in very scilled way. So you know that he is using he's PoLR. Then he understands he's mistake and acts politely. But he knows very little about the ettiquette. It seems like he's playing a role. So you know that he doesn't understand well and deeply the information about the politeness. And then he starts to speak about the things he has the most information, so you can see, he is being in the program again.

    And the more naturally you feel yourself doing something, the more you are in your socionics type ''suit''.
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    You're right, I'm timid, but that's also a cultural difference between us. We Estonians behave politely in strange situations. Like in a foreign webpage. And we like to keep in silent a lot when we are strangers. Saying a lot of things that are polite, but don't attract attention to us. Until we are taken as one of them. Our culture just has very much ISFj in it. But we're not ''saints'' due to that, actually, behind the ''nice face'' we gossip others a lot and we have some times a double face, we act like a friend, but at the back, we hate that person. Estonians have a bad side to web the silent intrigue. But the good thing is that we value culture very much. And perhaps speak one of the oldest languages in Europe. But let's end the monologue. It's end of the week. I'm about to smash some metal!
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    pleasure.

    Sry for not answering to your questions. I know actually nothing about the psychodynamics and neither about the translative theory, pluss neither can I unite them into one explanation.

    The goal of the human is to become socionized. That's the way I see it. But socionisation is not something marcante in psychology. Socionisation is the same thing what other psychology talks about. Basicly it's becoming into who you are. Discovering your weaknesses. Creating an accurate and working Ego and living harmoniously in the world, by self actualisating. I like the Maslow theory the best for that. So any good and accepted psychotherapy can lead you there. Specially under evolved therapyst. And since there is no socionical therapy in the west, for becoming into evolved and healthy person, they are the only way. So ironically to be socionized, you don't need socionics at all. You have all the time had the teachings to realise the goal it's talking about.


    Though trying to build the theory on is still fun and interesting thing to do.
    Semiotical process

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i fully agree and am amazed at the depth of your insight. however i also believe in higher purpose for a man, which is to become a self-sustaining image of God - going by the conscience every choice, and thus finalizing His creation.
    The last post gave me the final kick and shaped the things into the right order. So basically psychology describes different phenomenons, including types of people who are happy and matured. Socionics just gives us one interpretation of some phenomenons with the methods to achieve the results. And off course it has it's own mistakes, so it isn't perfect. And with the other theories you can have the same results, if not even better ones. So the whole ''project socionics'' is over for me and ironically it was useless, I just needed to walk a long road to discover the truth. But I can still use socionics methods to achieve some goals. And value my experience it gave.

    I like your idea! I'm a personally follower of a transpersonal psychology. What do you think of Ken Wilber?
    Semiotical process

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    so far i can say though that i did mean exactly what i said about God and i do not want any misinterpretations of what i said.

    also, ya man appears to be quite questionable so far from the article that i'm reading on him. of course it's a criticism article i'm reading as this is the only sensible way to start on anything i think.

    back to you in a bit hopefully.
    The videos at the youtube are also great. Though it's hard to understand him, cause he is very intelligent.
    Semiotical process

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    In jung's book the tavistock lectures, he mentiones that functions get swapped in person's who have bi polar disorder. He has had these patients.

    So typing should become confusing, according to jung.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    in the mean time, check out this thread:

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=17146
    I looked the theme. I think we're just one type: continium of traits switching on and out all the time. Some times you're extroverted, then have high ethics and so on. You're never solid and you are always bringing out something from your personality.


    It's time to leave this forum for a while. There's a life outside and I really need to live it. But I gladly answer to others private messages.



    Head aega! Mu head sőbrad.
    Semiotical process

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