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Thread: INFj Mirror Advice from ENFp perspective

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    Default INFj Mirror Advice from ENFp perspective

    My INFj friend sometimes gets down about certian aspects of life. As a counter to this, i would reassure him that he is a great person with many admirable qualities etc, which he does. However the same old things just kept comming up and haunting him. My Fi had failed to help him.

    So i thought to myself, what would his dual do?. I dropped off on the Fi and started to be honest and say that all i can offer is sympathy, and that wont help him. Sympathy only admits there is a problem but doesn't offer any solution to it. I started to say that he should not wallow, not to think so deeply. He should try to be active and not feed his thoughts. In doing this, i had to step away from my Fi inklings. In fact it seemed to be a very harsh way in dealing with someone. Did i have to be cruel to be kind? I still do soften the blows occasionally with Fi. Anyway after a few months it seems like an amazing thing is happening. Hes actually more relaxed and less contemplative.

    So my Fi soothing was not the solution. Seems to be a case of "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    ... So i thought to myself, what would his dual do?. I dropped off on the Fi and started to be honest and say that all i can offer is sympathy, and that wont help him. Sympathy only admits there is a problem but doesn't offer any solution to it. I started to say that he should not wallow, not to think so deeply. He should try to be active and not feed his thoughts. In doing this, i had to step away from my Fi inklings. In fact it seemed to be a very harsh way in dealing with someone. Did i have to be cruel to be kind? I still do soften the blows occasionally with Fi. Anyway after a few months it seems like an amazing thing is happening. Hes actually more relaxed and less contemplative. ...
    Good job!!!!!! This is exactly what caring Te-dominants do, and it WORKS. It's not perceived as cruelty, but the best kindness. It helps reinforce the Fi-dominant's inner sense of being able to get up, take charge of the situation themselves, bring it under control and change it for the better through practical actions - b/c this is most what the Fi needs to do, and probably isn't doing because of sinking in inner subjectivity/etc. Or something like that. Anyway, I don't know exactly why/how it works, other than it is refreshing, based on what I've seen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Sounds like something UPD would say.



    UPD probably invented this proverb, btw.
    Perhaps

    Here...
    what meatburger said
    in fact it seemed to be a very harsh way in dealing with someone. Did i have to be cruel to be kind? I still do soften the blows occasionally with Fi.
    what I would say
    in fact it seemed appropriate to be a very harsh in dealing with someone. i have to be cruel to be kind . I still do soften the blows occasionally with a pause in speech.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    My INFj friend sometimes gets down about certian aspects of life. As a counter to this, i would reassure him that he is a great person with many admirable qualities etc, which he does. However the same old things just kept comming up and haunting him. My Fi had failed to help him.

    So i thought to myself, what would his dual do?. I dropped off on the Fi and started to be honest and say that all i can offer is sympathy, and that wont help him. Sympathy only admits there is a problem but doesn't offer any solution to it. I started to say that he should not wallow, not to think so deeply. He should try to be active and not feed his thoughts. In doing this, i had to step away from my Fi inklings. In fact it seemed to be a very harsh way in dealing with someone. Did i have to be cruel to be kind? I still do soften the blows occasionally with Fi. Anyway after a few months it seems like an amazing thing is happening. Hes actually more relaxed and less contemplative.

    So my Fi soothing was not the solution. Seems to be a case of "Give a man a fish and you feed him for a day. Teach him how to fish and you feed him for a lifetime"
    I just don't agree with duality as being the what someone "needs" and what is the best way to be the best you can be. I do see how putting together an INFj mentality with an ESTj, and making it work, produces something that is stable. But, trust me, I much rather prefer to talk to an ENFp about something that is bothering me emotionally than with an ESTj. I like what astralski wrote (I paraphrased):

    "It's not perceived as cruelty, but the best kindness. It helps reinforce the inner sense of being able to get up, take charge of the situation themselves, bring it under control and change it for the better through practical actions - b/c this is most what he/sheneeds to do, and probably isn't doing because of sinking in inner subjectivity/etc."

    I can only speak for myself. People should not worry about not liking them after they tell me a hard truth, in fact, i will like them even more. Because it takes a lot more from someone to blatantly tell me that what they think when it's something hard to say. That's how I know someone truly cares about me to risk me not liking them, which in reality, is hard to happen.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sereno View Post
    But, trust me, I much rather prefer to talk to an ENFp about something that is bothering me emotionally than with an ESTj.
    Could be different personalities. Im not really sure what you are like or the ENFp's that you know. I cant say the same though. I would much rather talk to an ISTp about my emotional problems than an INFj. With INFj's i get words and sympathy, and its really not what i need. ISTp's dont even let me talk about emotional stuff and to be honest it works for me. I was suffering from something for quite a few years and i remember that my ISTp friend was the only one not to say "poor you, i know its hard". He told me what to do and i did it. I find ESTj's to be similar in this regard. They quash some of the INFj's emotions, not feed on them. I was sitting in maccas once and i said to my ESTj friend "im feeling horrible" or something. I cant remember what he said (it wasn't much) but he pulled me out of it quick smart lol.

    I can only speak for myself. People should not worry about not liking them after they tell me a hard truth, in fact, i will like them even more. Because it takes a lot more from someone to blatantly tell me that what they think when it's something hard to say. That's how I know someone truly cares about me to risk me not liking them, which in reality, is hard to happen.
    And i think thats what i meant. I stopped pussyfooting around and told him the truth. That he had to start taking responsibility for himself.
    Last edited by meatburger; 02-27-2008 at 11:12 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    Could be different personalities. Im not really sure what you are like or the ENFp's that you know. I cant say the same though. I would much rather talk to an ISTp about my emotional problems than an INFj. With INFj's i get words and sympathy, and its really not what i need. ISTp's dont even let me talk about emotional stuff and to be honest it works for me. I was suffering from something for quite a few years and i remember that my ISTp friend was the only one not to say "poor you, i know its hard". He told me what to do and i did it. I find ESTj's to be similar in this regard. They quash some of the INFj's emotions, not feed on them. I was sitting in maccas once and i said to my ESTj friend "im feeling horrible" or something. I cant remember what he said (it wasn't much) but he pulled me out of it quick smart lol.

    And i think thats what i meant. I stopped pussyfooting around and told him the truth. That he had to start taking responsibility for himself.
    Fair enough. People are very different though. I don't really identify with what you say about getting "words and sympathy" though, and I'm guessing it's the only thing you get from INFjs you know based on your wording. I'm always one to "do things" rather than be talking all the time about stuff with someone, finding a real concrete way to help. It doesn't sound right... Usually, I'm the one helping people get out of their ruts. Also, "taking responsibility for himself," that definitely does not sound like me. I take responsibility too seriously sometimes...

    It's good that you find the Socionics theory rewarding, and duality etc. I don't why, but I just don't see how it actually can be used for a good model of society, without having to apply some exception or overlook something that doesn't seem right. To me for example, it's a miracle that I find an "ESTj" that I actually can find some type of connection. Not saying that I haven't at some point, just saying that it's miraculous. This duality thing is just such a cheesy concept to me... The only other reasoning that people might give you here is that "nope, you're just not typing the people right, it works", or "you just have to find a dual that is compatible with your likes."

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    Yeah, i mean im not saying hes exactly the same as every INFj out there. Just that his problems were not being helped by my kindness. Believe it or not i can be very supportive and nice with my words, and quite often he would feel happy having that support. But no lasting change actually occured. He would still ask questions like "Why is everything so hard?, why is everyone else so lucky?, why does no one notice me?". He needed someone to say that these debilitating thoughts weren't helping him and to put the locus of control back onto himself. If you believe everything bad that happens is outside of yourself you will never change.

    It's good that you find the Socionics theory rewarding, and duality etc. I don't why, but I just don't see how it actually can be used for a good model of society, without having to apply some exception or overlook something that doesn't seem right. To me for example, it's a miracle that I find an "ESTj" that I actually can find some type of connection. Not saying that I haven't at some point, just saying that it's miraculous. This duality thing is just such a cheesy concept to me... The only other reasoning that people might give you here is that "nope, you're just not typing the people right, it works", or "you just have to find a dual that is compatible with your likes."
    I understand, and perhaps you're right. My god i will laugh at myself in 10 years time if all this shit turns out to be bullshit. I really will. I will laugh at myself just as i laugh at others for believing in things like Astrology etc. Im still trying to sort out the truth to socionics. I agree that its strange how things apparently worked out with a "Dual" type. All i can say is one of my best friends (an ESTj) has an INFj girlfriend and ive witnessed that relationship for 6 years. She is now very together person, very happy, quite able to logically think through her emotions. From my perspective a lot of it is due to his influence.

    I cant really say much about how hard it is to find your dual. I cant find one either. I dont see it as miraculous though. Ive identified about 5 ISTp women now, just unfortunate things haven't fallen into place yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I understand, and perhaps you're right. My god i will laugh at myself in 10 years time if all this shit turns out to be bullshit. I really will. I will laugh at myself just as i laugh at others for believing in things like Astrology etc. Im still trying to sort out the truth to socionics. I agree that its strange how things apparently worked out with a "Dual" type. All i can say is one of my best friends (an ESTj) has an INFj girlfriend and ive witnessed that relationship for 6 years. She is now very together person, very happy, quite able to logically think through her emotions. From my perspective a lot of it is due to his influence.

    I cant really say much about how hard it is to find your dual. I cant find one either. I dont see it as miraculous though. Ive identified about 5 ISTp women now, just unfortunate things haven't fallen into place yet.
    lol, well, I don't think that this is bullshit in itself. I do think that it offers a very general model of the personalities in society, and that it can help people understand others better to an extent. However, I get the feeling that people might, in some unconscience way, want to change more into their "type" based on the "description," in order to have a better identity (even though it actually becomes the opposite).

    I do know that Socionics is just a theory, but you need to have the right mindset in order to treat it as such. Personally, I find it hard to do that, since for me the idea of categorizing people and predicting behaviors based on a model is difficult and actually uncomfortable. I don't know how to convince myself of a certain line that can't be crossed between the theory and real life, what things do and don't apply, or better yet, should or shouldn't. This is why I might just let Socionics go, but I definitely don't see it as bullshit, it's just something that must be used in a healthy way, which I still haven't figured out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    I would much rather talk to an ISTp about my emotional problems than an INFj.
    Me too. It's incredible how you can attain the full attention of an SLI by sincerely telling them about a big misfortune. They feel instantly compelled to do something about it, it's like they can't stand the Fi drama.
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Me too. It's incredible how you can attain the full attention of an SLI by sincerely telling them about a big misfortune. They feel instantly compelled to do something about it, it's like they can't stand the Fi drama.
    Yeah don't abuse it! We feel too. Somewhere deep... deep deep deep deep inside. Generally though the only solutions i can come up with is practical stuff (which surprisingly a lot of people hate) or comforting shit like a hug or something.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Yeah don't abuse it! We feel too. Somewhere deep... deep deep deep deep inside. Generally though the only solutions i can come up with is practical stuff (which surprisingly a lot of people hate) or comforting shit like a hug or something.
    Who would hate something like that? Practical and comforting - how can you get better than that?
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    Trust me, ive run into those people..

    (it kinda hurts too, the 'dont give me that practical crap, just LISTEN TO ME')
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by LokiVanguard View Post
    Yeah don't abuse it! We feel too. Somewhere deep... deep deep deep deep inside. Generally though the only solutions i can come up with is practical stuff (which surprisingly a lot of people hate) or comforting shit like a hug or something.
    Maybe you're joking, but I knew you would say that. All SLIs I know are very afraid of being abused. Why?
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    You are an exemplary ISTp, then. The ones I know would probably go jump off the edge of a cliff before giving a "comforting hug".
    I only do that when it's like a real big wound, like someone dying or if someone's freaking out about their brother getting shot or something.


    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Maybe you're joking, but I knew you would say that. All SLIs I know are very afraid of being abused. Why?
    No, i wasn't joking.
    I feel like it's easy to take advantage of me, and nothing pisses me off more than when that happens.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    [from an ISFp's POV]
    I can see how this is useful for an all-over-the-place ENFp who is reassured and grounded by a generous helping of common sense. But usually the little common sense lecture is not welcomed or wanted by me, because I already know the right course of action and just want some sympathy or humor to lighten things up.
    [/from an ISFp's POV]
    I tend to feel weak when i want sympathy, and humour will rarely get me out of a funk. I tend to feel like my problems are so serious that its no laughing matter. lol. I have a strong need to try to heal myself. (not saying im good at it) just that i want to be. The thing is ENFp's shouldn't often feel trapped emotionally. Theres always so many ways of looking at something, always so much potential out there. I just want to tell someone im having a problem so they know why im acting down, but then i want to work through it myself. To be honest one of the only thing im confident and proud at myself for is my arsenal of coping mechanisms ive developed.

    Thats why i just want someone to know that i have a problem but not make a big fuss out of it. This could be just me though im not sure.

    EDIT: But im not to say this is the same for INFjs. Being an Fi dominant would be a turbulent ride i would imagine. My emotions feel to invasive as it is and they aren't even my first function..
    Last edited by meatburger; 03-03-2008 at 11:18 AM. Reason: 5th damn edit lol. INFjs..
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex View Post
    Me too. It's incredible how you can attain the full attention of an SLI by sincerely telling them about a big misfortune. They feel instantly compelled to do something about it, it's like they can't stand the Fi drama.
    I must be living in another world then... Reading all the posts in this thread makes me think that my perception of SLI and IEE I've gotten in real life is way different from the people here. This is the cheesiness I was talking about. Maybe it's because American types are different than ones in other parts of the world, I don't know... What I do know is that I can't relate this to real life.

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    Default It's me! I'm the INFj in the OP!

    I posted here once, some time ago, under a different name. I'm sorry to say that I came across as a bit of an ass. I was going through some stuff at the time, and although that's no excuse, it really didn't help matters.

    Anyway, for anyone who is curious, I'm the INFj in the OP. Meaty, may I say, a big thank you. You should probably know that I would come to the same conclusion eventually, and I did, but you did help accelerate the process with your psuedo Te (or whatever it was -- the whole stop moaning and do something about it schtick), and I'm grateful that you would go so far to help me as to post for advice in this forum! Funnily enough I wanted to do the same for you a while back, but then I remembered my last attempt to converse here and thought better of it.

    Needless to say, I'm a lot better now. In fact, I'm pretty much happier than I've ever been. I feel like my life is my own now, and that yes, I actually CAN do something about things that bother me. Which is pretty much everything.

    Now, I may just bugger off again, or I may lurk for a while. The people in this sub forum at least strike me as being pretty pleasant and civil, and I'm interested to share my own perspectives and unique insights on things.

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    Hey man, i honestly want to help in the best way i see fit. I mean im not gonna be an ass and never compliment you your good qualities, but i think on the inside you already know them.

    Seems to me in this over complicated theraputic world were taught that we should all be stars, and perfect at everything. The thing i realised is that we are already cool the way we are and it shouldn't always be this neverending journey of self improvement by analysis. Live life, think later and the self improvement will take care of itself. So After years of soul searching and reading shit, the only real lasting solution i have came up with is a version of "dont worry, be happy".

    Will talk to ya later about the garden of unearthly delights. Its almost beer o-clock.
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    And by the way, i dont mean to bag Fi. Being a person dominant in it myself lol.

    I think kind words should not be over done or they loose all meaning. Compliments and kind words should be a weapon used at the perfect time, that goes straight to the soul.
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    Really? Why wouldn't you? I still think Fi sucks to be brutally honest. I often feel like I'm on a rollercoaster, only there are no brakes and I can't get off! It's pretty frustrating and even hurtful at times and doesn't seem terribly useful for someone at my age either! On the other hand, Ne is controllable and continually useful. Anyone want to trade Fe for Fi? I'd happily trade in my INFj for a shiny new INFp. The only problem is that I would attract ESTp's and I'm none too fond of them as a rule. Herzy's posts make my eyeballs bleed.

    I'm still waiting for someone from either MBTI or Socionics to give me an answer about why Fi is good, when it has so many downsides and can easily overwhelm an INFj if they aren't careful.

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    Are you sure that you understand what Fi is?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FiNeAussie View Post
    Really? Why wouldn't you? I still think Fi sucks to be brutally honest. I often feel like I'm on a rollercoaster, only there are no brakes and I can't get off! It's pretty frustrating and even hurtful at times and doesn't seem terribly useful for someone at my age either! On the other hand, Ne is controllable and continually useful. Anyone want to trade Fe for Fi? I'd happily trade in my INFj for a shiny new INFp. The only problem is that I would attract ESTp's and I'm none too fond of them as a rule. Herzy's posts make my eyeballs bleed.

    I'm still waiting for someone from either MBTI or Socionics to give me an answer about why Fi is good, when it has so many downsides and can easily overwhelm an INFj if they aren't careful.

    hmm...well I think this isn't so much about Fi as much as feelings in general. I think feelings are there for a good reason -- it's not a useless rollarcoaster with no purpose. I think all feelings are like the warning lights on a car dashboard. They're there to either alert you to a problem (bad feelings), or remind you that everything is going well (good feelings) and to keep doing those things. Feelings are very useful if you see them this way and take time to notice what the rollarcoaster is telling you. Being aware of your feelings, rollarcoaster or not, seeing the value in them, puts you in control. It's sorta like weather. Rain, wind, etc -- you can't control those things. You can get upset that it's raining and you don't want it to, but it will keep raining. And we all have times when we get a little rainstrom inside you that will soon clear up. The longer you ignore the feelings, the more intense the "rollarcoaster" gets. It's like ignoring a toddler -- do they just move on and forget you? No they get louder and louder until they're screaming! Your feelings are alerting you to a problem, so listen to them. Take time to just sit quietly and notice what the heck is going on inside of you, whether or not you "want" to be feeling that, you Are. So accept it, notice it, and then you can deal w/ it and you will feel better. I found this worked well for me and I have lots of Fi, so hope that helps.

    Fi is as good as anything else. It has pros and cons like any other function. It makes you incredible at handling many situations that others can't. A lot of people need what you have to give, so don't disreguard it like that.
    Hi! I'm an ENFP. :-)

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