Which dual couple is this?

[Expat]

Indulge me.

What follows is a disguised interpretation of a historical event, that is, a historian's speculation to explain a few things about which some is known, but not everything. So, the "big" events are historical; the minor things, speculation, but I found interesting that the historian even thought of that speculation.

This is not a test of poster's types; I'm just curious to see which answers will show up. I will give all details later.

So:

A long time ago, a man had ruled a mighty kingdom/empire/whatever for many years, bringing it peace and prosperity after a period of chaos. During all these years, he had the help and support of his dual wife.

The ruler had never had the best of health, and now, in his late seventies, it seemed that this most recent illness would be the last one.

Due to the political situation of the kingdom, it was not certain at all that their son - a grown man - would simply and easily take over as ruler. The dual couple were afraid that the period of transition might encourage rivals for power and plunge the kingdom in civil war.

So, in order to assure a peaceful transition of power from the ruler to their son, as he was in his death-bed they made sure that everything was in place: the son was placed in a strategic position near the armies; possible rivals were put into "check" by trusted allies; messages were sent to key people in all corners of the kingdom. If the ruler died now, everything would happen smoothly.

Then, the unexpected happens: as it had happened before, the ruler started to recover. Even in his late seventies, it seemed that his most recent illness would still not be the final one. It looked like he'd recover, to live longer - but how long? A few weeks, months? A year? Who could now? And would they then be able to "stage-manage" the transition in power so carefully, next time? Would the whole kingdom then risk civil war during an uncertain transition?

The ruler's wife proposes the best course of action to him: he must die now, as "planned". The ruler agrees. He is given poison, he stops recovering, and everything happens as planned - the power transition to their son happens smoothly; the risk of civil war in the whole kingdom is avoided.

Which dual pair would you say they were?

[PotatoSpirit]

ISFj-ENTj?

How about abdicating now, and letting the kid rule with him as a counselor?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

King: ENFj Wife: ISTj

His need for grand symbolic events weak Si for ENFj, his vision of pulling kingdom and people together suggests FeNI

Her uncertainty with future when he dies maybe weak N, reasoned out with Ti and aware of power and control issues giving Se

[Expat]

How about abdicating now, and letting the kid rule with him as a counselor?

He was no "kid", already a grown man; and that had already happened to some extent, since the son was already co-ruler for some 10 years. But in the end, the ultimate guarantor of the regime, while he lived, was the older man.

And why do you think ENTj-ISFj?

His need for grand symbolic events weak Si for ENFj, his vision of pulling kingdom and people together suggests FeNI

Where did you see that? Which symbolic events?

[Expat]

Ah, perhaps you thought that the "stage-managing" of the power transition was "symbolic". Not at all; it was all about making sure that the right people would be in the right places, and ready, the moment the ruler died - all done very discreetly.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Where did you see that? Which symbolic events?

See what you mean, I maybe reading too much into it, looked like lots of pomp and show symbolic events with armies on show and all messengers and everything dispatched and son placed by kings side to tie in with his death - all symbolising he's the king and his son taking over - like a PR campaign!

[Cudcat]

They are likely NI/Se. I'd guess gamma due to all the practical arrangements. The wife is probably NT and the husband SF.

[PotatoSpirit]

He was no "kid", already a grown man; and that had already happened to some extent, since the son was already co-ruler for some 10 years. But in the end, the ultimate guarantor of the regime, while he lived, was the older man.

And why do you think ENTj-ISFj?

Nothing very strong, but:

King:
Starting from a period of chaos: Se ego
Attachment to his kingdom and son to the point of self sacrifice: Fi leading

Queen:
Planning for the optimal outcome: NiTe

Both:
Seems weird they couldn't find another solution, maybe unvalued Ne.
Long period of stability might weakly point towards j.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

See what you mean, I maybe reading too much into it, looked like lots of pomp and show symbolic events with armies on show and all messengers and everything dispatched and son placed by kings side to tie in with his death - all symbolising he's the king and his son taking over - like a PR campaign!

i see you just answered this for me..I was still typing this post up while you put your answer. Ha!

[Expat]

See what you mean, I maybe reading too much into it, looked like lots of pomp and show symbolic events with armies on show and all messengers and everything dispatched and son placed by kings side to tie in with his death - all symbolising he's the king and his son taking over - like a PR campaign!

No, not at all, it was all done behind the scenes. It was about holding the real reins of power, rather than its symbols.

[Expat]

Nothing very strong, but:

King:
Starting from a period of chaos: Se ego
Attachment to his kingdom and son to the point of self sacrifice: Fi leading

Queen:
Planning for the optimal outcome: NiTe

Both:
Seems weird they couldn't find another solution, maybe unvalued Ne.
Long period of stability might weakly point towards j.

I'm not sure that it makes sense to attribute these functions to them in that order; in the ISFj-ENTj duality, it is the ISFj who says "you must do it now" to the ENTj because of Se>Ni. It is the ENTj who says to the ISFj, "no, not yet".

[PotatoSpirit]

I'm not sure that it makes sense to attribute these functions to them in that order; in the ISFj-ENTj duality, it is the ISFj who says "you must do it now" to the ENTj because of Se>Ni. It is the ENTj who says to the ISFj, "no, not yet".

I guess I see the ideation of suicide as more of an ENTj thing for its valuable TeNi effects, and the action of suicide as ISFj for the Se guts and Fi motivation it requires.

But I'm guessing something else about them makes you think the opposite?

[Expat]

I guess I see the ideation of suicide as more of an ENTj thing for its valuable TeNi effects, and the action of suicide as ISFj for the Se guts and Fi motivation it requires.

But I'm guessing something else about them makes you think the opposite?

Not necessarily; anyway for the moment I'd like to hear people's views on them as couple, rather than on their individual types. So I'll mark you down as saying, "Gamma rational".

[Expat]

I see that the way I phrased it - "she proposes the best course of action" - does make her seem like the Te - Ni person.

Whereas, as Cyclops pointed out, it could also be seen that it was the wife's anxiety about the increasing uncertainty, together with Se, that even made her want to "hurry things up and get it done and over with".

[Minde]

That was a nice story... until the end. I mean, in a way I can understand if they loved their son (and their people) and wanted to give their best to ensure his success in life and thought there wasn't any other way that would do it quite as well. Sacrificial love and all that. But still!

[Expat]

That was a nice story... until the end. I mean, in a way I can understand if they loved their son (and their people) and wanted to give their best to ensure his success in life and thought there wasn't any other way that would do it quite as well. Sacrificial love and all that. But still!

Giving a few more details --

The son was actually the ruler's stepson, so her blood son; but he had adopted him as his own son, too, some 10 years before, and raised him since he was 4. And the son was already in his fifties when that happened.

So I think it was less about the son, as son, than about making sure that the kingdom would not go through a huge political crisis, even war.

[Minde]

Giving a few more details --

The son was actually the ruler's stepson, so her blood son; but he had adopted him as his own son, too, some 10 years before, and raised him since he was 4. And the son was already in his fifties when that happened.

Something's off in that math... How could he be fifty when ten years before he was 4?

So I think it was less about the son, as son, than about making sure that the kingdom would not go through a huge political crisis, even war.

I thought of that possibility, which is why I added "and their people." Especially if they had worked really hard to make things peaceful.

Even in that situation, it would be natural for the queen at least to want her son to do well. Though, I suppose in royal families the inter-familial bonds can be somewhat messed up at times, so even that might not be too steady a supposition.

Sorry I have no socionical input - just my reactions.

[Expat]

Something's off in that math... How could he be fifty when ten years before he was 4?

He married his wife when her son by a previous marriage was 4; but he only adopted him, as his own son, when he (the son) was 45 - so ten years before the ruler's death, as the son was 55.

Sorry I have no socionical input - just my reactions.

That was perfect.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Giving a few more details --

The son was actually the ruler's stepson, so her blood son; but he had adopted him as his own son, too, some 10 years before, and raised him since he was 4. And the son was already in his fifties when that happened.

So I think it was less about the son, as son, than about making sure that the kingdom would not go through a huge political crisis, even war.

Nothing more socionico from my initial observation yet, except perhaps to make a presumption of the queens loyalty. I'm sure if she really wanted her son to have power earlier she could have found a way to 'bump' her husband off. She seems more concerned with the logic of the situation than the people at hand. I'm still leaning to towards T in her ego with Se for the mo., with a loyalty to maintaining the system.

[Expat]

Nothing more socionico from my initial observation yet, except perhaps to make a presumption of the queens loyalty. I'm sure if she really wanted her son to have power earlier she could have found a way to 'bump' her husband off.

Very good point.

She seems more concerned with the logic of the situation than the people at hand. I'm still leaning to towards T in her ego with Se for the mo., with a loyalty to maintaining the system.

She might also be equally concerned for the people, especially if she knew how much her husband wanted his life's work to remain after he was gone.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Thoughts I had on initial reading:

Would it have been impossible to transfer leadership while he was still alive, under the premise that he wouldn't live much longer? Why was his death a necessity?

I thought about this, like if he abdigated the throne. Even although the wheels were in motion for his apparently inevitable death. Maybe it's a job for life? But then the son's got his work cut out because it's possible he'll be in the same situation at one point also. Interesting!

How did the queen feel about the king? Was it a loving marriage, or more of a contract - working relationship, kind of thing? IOW, was his the only sacrifice? Quite a love of country/countrymen to go through with it. Makes me think "Greater love has no man than this, that he lay down his life for his friends."

Out of interest, would you have been able to make that sacrifice?

[marooned]

I can understand why they chose that course of action, but I don’t agree with it. I’m a believer in ‘if there isn’t a way, or doesn’t seem to be one, then find one.’ I would be more willing to sacrifice myself than ever ask another to sacrifice themselves (which isn’t to say I’d happily sacrifice myself either). Especially if it’s my husband… I mean there is no freaking way I would ever ask or want someone I love to kill themselves for anything. Period.

I think if they’re ENTj/ISFj, that the king is more likely ENTj and the queen ISFj. She proposes a singular best course of action. She’s the one more focused on the power structure itself and the possibility of revolt. He’s the one more focused on a smooth transition. He does as she asks. He follows her lead.

Adding on... her decisive powers seem greater than his... I can relate to him more than to her. I could say... this is what we're facing... this is where it's going... this is where it may go if this or that happens... But I don't know what to do. I need someone more practical and more decisive to propose a course of action.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[discojoe]

I haven't read any of the responses in the topic, but it sounds like either ISTj/ENFj or ENTj/ISFj. I don't know more about the couple, so it is hard to say which is which, but I'd guess the wife was the ISxj, because the idea of suggesting suicide in that situation strikes me as an beta/gamma ISJ "duty" decision, and/or something done out of love for the successor to the throne, their son (though in those days it might have been an adopted son or something, but still).

[Expat]

Would it have been impossible to transfer leadership while he was still alive, under the premise that he wouldn't live much longer? Why was his death a necessity?

He did associate the son with him in power 10 years before, but the reality was that, regardless of what he actually did, even if he retired, etc, the political reality would be that, as long as he was alive - even if officially retired - he would still be the ultimate guarantor of the regime, and the son would be seen as merely his sidekick. Only with his death would the son be seen as the true ruler, and only then could it be tested whether his rule would really be accepted. It wasn't a situation where the son would be able to establish himself no matter what.

Also, you can transfer power, but not really leadership -- I mean, it's not the same thing, but even in established democracies -- I don't think that any historian would question that Andrew Johnson was politically far weaker than Abraham Lincoln (would Lincoln have ever been impeached, for instance?) despite having the same constitutional authority. In the situation I described, the personal political element was far heavier.

How did the queen feel about the king? Was it a loving marriage, or more of a contract - working relationship, kind of thing? IOW, was his the only sacrifice?

It's impossible to know what they actually felt, but they remained married for 40 years, despite (for some reason) not being able to have children of their own. He had a daughter from one previous marriage, and she had two sons from a previous marriage.

[Expat]

I thought about this, like if he abdigated the throne. Even although the wheels were in motion for his apparently inevitable death. Maybe it's a job for life? But then the son's got his work cut out because it's possible he'll be in the same situation at one point also. Interesting!

He was, and that also had its consequences - of a different sort.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

He was, and that also had its consequences - of a different sort.

I kinda remember a story of some king who got all his alchemists to search for the elixir of life

[Mariano Rajoy]

The queen bitch is beta Fe.

I say ENFj-ISTj.

[Expat]

The whole situation seems odd, like they should have been able to come up with something else.

They had had other plans - usually based on having more than one close trusted younger person in a position of power - but they were nullified by circumstances.

I haven't read any of the responses in the topic, but it sounds like either ISTj/ENFj or ENTj/ISFj. I don't know more about the couple, so it is hard to say which is which, but I'd guess the wife was the ISxj, because the idea of suggesting suicide in that situation strikes me as an beta/gamma ISJ "duty" decision, and/or something done out of love for the successor to the throne, their son (though in those days it might have been an adopted son or something, but still).

It was her own blood son, and his stepson/adopted son.

[Expat]

The queen bitch is beta Fe.

I say ENFj-ISTj.

Sooooooooooooooooo -- nobody is going to suggest anything but a Ni-Se rational couple??!!

[Expat]

I think if they’re ENTj/ISFj, that the king is more likely ENTj and the queen ISFj. She proposes a singular best course of action. She’s the one more focused on the power structure itself and the possibility of revolt. He’s the one more focused on a smooth transition. He does as she asks. He follows her lead.

Adding on... her decisive powers seem greater than his... I can relate to him more than to her. I could say... this is what we're facing... this is where it's going... this is where it may go if this or that happens... But I don't know what to do. I need someone more practical and more decisive to propose a course of action.

Your understanding of ENTj-ISFj is close to mine, except for this -- in those situations, the ENTj does know what to do. But like -- "I think I should do it -- but perhaps not yet -- " and the ISFj is like, "no, there is no time to waste, do it now!" and the ENTj is like "yes, you're right" or "no, we have to wait to see whether this or that happens -- " but the course of action is arrived at together.

[Mariano Rajoy]

ESI poisoning her husband? Really? I would think the ESI would forsake the kingdom for her king.

[Expat]

ESI poisoning her husband? Really? I would think the ESI would forsake the kingdom for her king.

But what if forsaking the kingdom would lead to political turmoil, even war, and wreck everything they had worked for?

[Mariano Rajoy]

But what if forsaking the kingdom would lead to political turmoil, even war, and wreck everything they had worked for?

It sounds like those are things that the LIE king worked for, but she was always there fulfilling the expectations and supporting the king. For her, in the end there is no kingdom without the king, so taking his life is the last thing on her mind.

Just a guess.

[marooned]

Sooooooooooooooooo -- nobody is going to suggest anything but a Ni-Se rational couple??!!

They are at least Ni/Se quadra, IYO yes?

[aestrivex]

without having read any of the other responses in this thread, i'd say EIE-LSI. this is probably a pretty arcane excercise, but here's my reasoning: they ought to be rational types to not be able to deal with the changing situation, and presumably Se values would make sense in terms of favoring duty to the outside world over oneself. beta > gamma is a judgment call, if for no other reason than i don't tend to think a gamma type would see a rapid and clean succession as being quite as important or as acceptable a solution if the king must die as might beta types.

[Expat]

They are at least Ni/Se quadra, IYO yes?

Yes.

[marooned]

Your understanding of ENTj-ISFj is close to mine, except for this -- in those situations, the ENTj does know what to do. But like -- "I think I should do it -- but perhaps not yet -- " and the ISFj is like, "no, there is no time to waste, do it now!" and the ENTj is like "yes, you're right" or "no, we have to wait to see whether this or that happens -- " but the course of action is arrived at together.

If I were in the queen's position I wouldn't know what to do because even if it looked like the king should die for the betterment of the kingdom and the future, I wouldn't be able to do that. My emotions would get in the way there. I'd be left looking into other options, and would never even voice the option of the king poisoning himself because I wouldn't want that to even drop into his mind (if it hadn't already). Even if it was clearly the best course of action, I wouldn't be willing to consider it except as a passing thought met quickly with a "no. we're not doing that. find another way" sort of response in my mind. I would continue to search for an ideal solution even if none existed... and if I knew none existed... I wouldn't know what to do because I wouldn't be able to do the one thing that would be "best."

The thing about the wife/queen is she is so certain about this. That's why I think she has to be the Se one.

Is it common of both Beta and Gamma Ni/Se rationals (duals) to arrive at courses of action *together* or is this more Gamma?

[Expat]

Is it common of both Beta and Gamma Ni/Se rationals (duals) to arrive at courses of action *together* or is this more Gamma?

I think the ENFj (and a good example is Barack Obama's latest book) is more like "I see this around me, and I see this happening -- this is important, this means something, within this bigger context" -- waiting for an ISTj to analyze the information and say, "I know what it all means, what we have to do is this!"

So, in a way, it's similar.