Type reconsideration
For quite some time now, seven or eight months I'd say, I've been wondering about the validity of my self typing. Which is IEI. Or at the very least beta NF. Right now I'm ready to have a discussion on it, got some free time and all.
Ok, so what do you people think my type is?
I still think ofOriginally Posted by snegledmaca
when I think of you.
Can you say why?I still think of
It must be the lake metaphor you once used to explain socionics.
I agree with XoX. If you really are an NF type (which I strongly doubt), it is impossible for me, based on the information you have provided about yourself in combination with a sense of strong similarity in attitudes and thinking, to see you as any other NF type than IEI.
Ah, yes, this. What makes you say Ni? Why not something else?
So basically, you think I'm IEI, based on on the information I have provided about myself and based on a sense of strong similarity in my attitudes and my thinking to your own. Could you be explicit and tell me exactly what information, attitudes, thinking patterns are you referring too? (Or at least try)
Why not Ne? The first methaphor suggests Ne rather than Ni, I think. How do you know that you are not an ILE? That would explain why you identify with Keirsey's Rational temperament, why you identify with INTP type descriptions and get such results on tests, and maybe some other things too.
No. I have explained why a lot of things you have said about yourself are inconsistent with IEI, so the only way I can see you as an IEI is to ignore those things or explain them away somehow. But I haven't found a way to do that yet.
I have done that a couple of times already. Basically, you consistently describe your own attitudes, your way of thinking, your test results, your behaviour etc. in a way that doesn't fit the IEI type.
My though as well.
Well, ILE might fit in terms of MBTI and all that, in fact objectively ENTP fits better then INTP, however in socionics it makes absolutely no sense what so ever. I'm not alpha, my mother is ESE and we clash tremendously, I don't have Ti in my ego, I'm not EP temperament.The first methaphor suggests Ne rather than Ni, I think. How do you know that you are not an ILE? That would explain why you identify with Keirsey's Rational temperament, why you identify with INTP type descriptions and get such results on tests, and maybe some other things too.
Could you restate those thing? (If at least by memory)No. I have explained why a lot of things you have said about yourself are inconsistent with IEI, so the only way I can see you as an IEI is to ignore those things or explain them away somehow. But I haven't found a way to do that yet.
Could you do that here? If nothing ask me questions and I will answer.I have done that a couple of times already. Basically, you consistently describe your own attitudes, your way of thinking, your test results, your behaviour etc. in a way that doesn't fit the IEI type.
I would like to know exactly what it is about my attitudes, way of thinking, test results, behaviour etc. does not fit the IEI type. I would like to go over those things, here, and try to make sense of them, explain them.
Okay, I'll come back to it. But right now I am too tired to concentrate.
the broadest I'd go is that you are a type with weak or unvalued Si. For reasons Im not comfortable stating here but they have to do with vibes I get from other types with weak Si.
One thing I think about with you is that you consistently seem to display signs that you have a great imagination.
Very, well.
But to aid you, you could perhaps do the same thing as XoX did, give me somethign concrete to go on, like for example, you said roughly this and that and I'll try to dig it up. Right now general attitudes, general way of thinking, general test results, general behaviour etc. is just too general.
Why do people keep saying that? I'm the driest, most unimaginative person ever. I mean, I almost failed creative writing for being to dry and unimaginative. The teacher begged me to at least try to somehow make it subjective. But I couldn't. I was a god student overall, but for the love of god I just couldn't write anything that was in any was subjective, imaginative. I mean, I can see concepts as they are and describe them with precision, I can get a vision of what is, like with that lake thing, but I utterly lack vision of the unknown. Situations I have not been in, have been exposed to, I cannot envision, describe. I never was able to. I can only reproduce. People seem to be confusing unorthodox reproduction with imagination.
And weak Si, vibes, yeah, could you in some way get over your discomfort? I'd like to know why you think I have weak or unvalued Si. Just stating it is of not use/help to me.
You have managed to get me disoriented with asking this question. I don't know how to answer this. I'm not sure. If I had to answer I'd say your question is inherently flawed as I intact with people on an individual basis and respond differently to different people's expression ofsnegledmaca, do you feel you respond well to?
In what way/manner/form am I not aware of it?I could be wrong, but whenever I've talked to you it's like you don't seem aware of it at all. Of course, you could be different in rl, but still...
lol @ not being able to answer the simplest of questions.You have managed to get me disoriented with asking this question. I don't know how to answer this. I'm not sure. If I had to answer I'd say your question is inherently flawed as I intact with people on an individual basis and respond differently to different people's expression of
sneg: what kinds of things are important for you when interacting with other people? what kinds of things put you at ease in an interpersonal or group interaction? what's the most successful way to talk to you? what should one talk about in trying to talk to you? how would you describe your role in social or interpersonal situations?
examples, anecdotes, etc. are encouraged.
I'm opting for correctness here. I can't answer that question correctly as it requires subjective judgment on my part. If I had a concrete situation to analyze I might be able. Or at least some way of it not begin "how do I feel I respond to...". Actually, if one were to just kick out the "feel" part I could respond.
Nothing really. I have no conscious preferences in interaction, I just interact to the best of my abilities.
No force, lightweight atmosphere, absence of hierarchy, open-ended discussion where I can freely and randomly contribute what I find relevant to the discussion, the people/person acknowledging my contribution, no bounds, where I can leave if I chose to do so with no questions asked if I desire to not be asked any questions about why I am leaving (This can get especially frustrating with some people and them "plowing away" at why I'm doing what I'm doing makes me close up even more and give them even less information and the cycle can escalate), things I can't think of right now.what kinds of things put you at ease in an interpersonal or group interaction?
I'd say be normal. But what I think is normal might not be so for somebody else.what's the most successful way to talk to you?
I'd say, first and foremost place no demands on me, "You have to do this", "You will do this" and the like. That is the moment I just turn around and walk away. And I don't say goodbye, I just walk away. I desire no further interaction with this person. Have basic communication skill. Something for example that my mother doesn't have. When she talks she is listening to the sound of her own voice. And when you try to contribute she automatically raises her voice to drown you out. That feels especially inhibiting and irritating. It angers me every time. It's like she is automatically sending a message that what I have to say, my contributions, have no value before she even heard them. Which feels as if she is sending a message that anything I say has no value, basically that I have no value. If she were somebody else, not my mother, I'd walk away like I described above, but I can't do that as she is family. Which just results in conflict between us.
So over all I'd say to let me be myself.
It's not what but how that matters. It's the manner in which they present themselves, carry the discussion, convey information that causes problems. With that in mind I'd say anything.what should one talk about in trying to talk to you?
I would say I have no role other then being myself. However, in certain situations I can become a shallow caricature. And with certain people as well.how would you describe your role in social or interpersonal situations?
I notice that we are rather similar in some ways based on some of our previous posts.
god. when you speak, do you realize that the goal is to communicate some kind of information? and, hopefully, information that is in some way relevant to the topic.
what does "being yourself" entail? these roles must manifest themselves in some way. tell us about them. how do you go about interacting with other people? what does it mean for you to interact with other people?
Have you considered the possibility that I was doing it on purpose? You just assumed I was deficient in it because I did not respond how you wanted.Well, it's just the descriptions of using
I have humor. I fact, IRL I'm "known" for my joke telling.I know
Actually no, no I don't. Not ever. Now that I think about it. In fact, displays of interpersonal feelings make me cringe and extremely uneasy. I get an instant urge to inhibit it/get away from it fast. Like say, when the class break out in spontaneous applause. That seriously makes me uneasy, makes me squirm in my seat wanting somehow to make it stop or drown it out.And in rl, do you ever display interpersonal warmth? I don't think I've ever seen you do that on here.
This might be relevant to what you are getting at.Idk, I just get this "feeling" (lol) that you think you're good with
Also perhaps I depersonalize it? If I an a Ni type, further more a Ni subtype, depersonalization would what I would be about. Just think of those buddhists and their depersonalization aspirations. Perhaps I can depersonalizing a part of my psyche? Like a snake unhinging it's jaw?
Well... I don't really say more then what I was asked. This was a problem in certain exams during my education because I would answer in the shortest and most concise way possible. I learned that even though it may not be asked of me I was suppose to talk about other things as well. Although I couldn't really see why as that was not part of the question, or as I saw it, it was demanded of me despite the fact that it wasn't demanded of me.
Though some people can engage me in long, drawn out conversations.
I don't know. Myself?what does "being yourself" entail?
Not really sure how to properly answer this one. Could you ask somethign more specific, like does this and this mean being yourself. You know, so that I can grasp on to it and contrast and compare.
What roles? Are you talking about interpersonal roles? I'm not sure. In interaction I'd say my "role" is that of either comic relief, when I am being expected to fulfill some one-dimensional caricature, or the interaction administrator. But the second doesn't feel like a role, or obligation. It's just me being myself.these roles must manifest themselves in some way. tell us about them.
For the most part they go about interacting with me. But when I do approach people I approach them head on with no reservation. I use to joke with a friend of mine, he was no sympathy and I have no shame.how do you go about interacting with other people?
Uhm, exchanging information? Again, not sure. Just, talk with them I guess. Or perhaps when both people have an impact on each other.what does it mean for you to interact with other people?
Do you know in what ways exactly?
what you said is something my infp boss could have said. you can't create things out of thin air yeah. but you can imagine something well enough to describe it yeah?
no, can't really get over it, i just tried to state the reasons why i thought you had weak Si, and the reason was vibes. but part of it has to do with the imagination bit. seems that you could describe something in your head much better than a sensation. you give me the impression that you'd be grossed out by extensive descriptions of them.
Actually, as I described here, I don't imagine at all. I see concepts in my mind. And they feel as real as me touching something with my hand. And as independent.
You are correct. For example BulletsAndDoves grosses me out tremendously. Or when my mother wants me to look at her wounds. Or medical shows. Cause me serious discomfort.no, can't really get over it, i just tried to state the reasons why i thought you had weak Si, and the reason was vibes. but part of it has to do with the imagination bit. seems that you could describe something in your head much better than a sensation. you give me the impression that you'd be grossed out by extensive descriptions of them.
Perhaps you have somethign here. But how does it show weak Si? Why does begin squeamish mean weak Si? Does that mean it is impossible for somebody with strong Si to be squeamish?
So, at this point,
I am also interested in this.
I don't buy that at all. My ISTp husband can be pretty squeamish. And there must be people in medical fields of all types who deal with that kind of thing.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Sneg, what do you think about ENFj? How does that fit you if at all? Why did you initially chose INFp over ENFj?
i think this is all highly relevant; you are absolutely incapable of answering or even understanding my kind of question. i don't know what that means; one might be inclined to suggest that it has something to do with Fe, but i think i'd be able to at least give you something in terms of describing my interaction with others.
here's how i would go about answering the question: i tend to be a very secluded and isolated individual. however, most of the people i know are casual friends or casual acquaintances who i'm not really all that close with. i find it difficult to establish any kind of deep connection with anybody, and the result is that i have mostly superficial acquaintances, with whom i often seem to be discussing school-related topics or other topics pertinent in some way to mutual experiences that are going on.
this is only a brief summary. can you describe your interactions in this kind of fashion?
So, at this point,
speak for yourself, would ya?
i knew that word "squeamish" would be causing trouble. You remember when reyn was curious about her type and everyone said that she was very comfortable with sensual descriptions, and this led people to think that she might be strong in Si. There are trends that indicate weak and strong functions, but they are not true in every case, obviously.
in general I do find Ni types to become rather bored of taking pleasure in such descriptions simply for their own sake (they must serve something else). Makes sense to me because I am a Ti type, in the description of Si/Ne as more short term than Ni/Se. Focusing on such things require slow dwelling in sensations and I could see why that would be quite boring for Ni types.
so sneg, i must have lied when I said that I wasn't willing to divulge information. all i know is that you rated your sexual interest or something similar at all of 2 on a scale of 10 and most of your posts in the whole of your being here seem to involve complex, detailed ideas-- complex not necessarily in that they are logical or whatever, but that you seem to consistently take/have to take more than a few sentences to describe them.
Last edited by Ms. Kensington; 02-21-2008 at 04:56 PM.
First you explain why it is unanimous and if your turn out to be correct I'll think about the second part.So, at this point,
Actually, now that I think about it, no.
Because I have an activity relation with a person who I think is an introvert. That is primarily the reason why I chose IEI. And the whole Ti as HA thing. I was confident in my people skills but I was also confident in being an E5. The IEI type nicely explained away all of that. EIE doesn't fit behaviorally.
OMG, I just remembered something! God I'm an imbecile! I actually kept track of what "being myself" is ever since I started doubting this stuff! Much like you say, I simply don't know how to answer your question. Basically, now that I think about it, the only way for me to learn anything about myself is through observation of myself. Like I expressed earlier, for the most part I lack subjectivity. Or at least an awareness of it. In any case, because of it I kept a log of whenever I identified or not and were repulsed or not by things and so on. Kind of kept track of personal preferences. I'll post it here when I compile it. Again, I can't believe how I actually forgot about that as the very purpose of it was to gain insight into myself.
to me that is just a stronger argument that you are an Ni type. someone who is actually an Ni type can correct me if this sounds really off.
my conclusion -> INFp. Some sort of introverted ENFj I could have seen but his counter argument against ENFj points to INFp. INFpINFpINFp.
One thing that bothers me about this is, how do you know all that stuff? Have you bothered to check it, if those are your impressions? How do you go about checking them/know they are true? What if it turns out that your entire conception/perception concerning those aspects of reality is wrong?
I ask this because I've actually had that happen. My entire conception of reality was wrong. Looking back I can't even imagine how such a thing could be true, that is, how I could've believed the things I believed, how I could've though some things were true when it was obvious they weren't, and worse yet, sometimes I actually knew they weren't true but I saw them as true anyway. It was like I was brainwashed and then I suddenly, for some reason, woke up from it.
Ahhh, yes, that. I rated it so low because for the most part lack an interest in sex. I've never had sex nor do I see that changing in the future. Thinking about it I actually find the idea repulsive.
You are true in that my posts on a whole focus on trying to convey complex ideas. However, how do you determine usage from mere focus? I mean, would you call an EIE overcompensating for the Se HA by focusing on Se aspects like his power, influences, size of body parts and so on a sensor? What if I am merely overcompensating for a lack of such things in my life?
the only thing i can say is: what the fuck are you talking about? seriously?
these are my descriptions of my social interactions. they're not even all that subjective. they're pretty simple observations for the most part. in what way could you possibly argue that they're wrong?
seriously, you've 100% lost me.
Ok, so this is a compilation of some things I wrote about myself over (The stuff under quotation marks are my unaltered sentences from when I wrote them, made the observation) the last 8 months or so:
- "I'd love to just ramble on incessantly and let my mind wander in the process totally ignoring context"
- I apparently have a tendency to avoid groups of people, group events, and then feel sorry for not belonging with such people, in such situations.
- I apparently utterly despise group mentality of any kind. Specially cited examples are sporting events and their corresponding behavior, "hood" mentality (The "gangs" and stuff, in essence the urban tribes) and it's corresponding behavior, the "american" (For lack of a batter word) party mentality and it's corresponding behavior.
- "I'm an anti improviser. Nothing I do, ever, is improvised."
- "Never take any risks. Ever."
- "My pitfall is my trustfulness of authorities on matters. I always think later on, when I realize how obvious it was that they were wrong, how could I have been so foolish to accept so easily those things as true. Truth to be told It doesn't even cross my mind that it could be false information. Mostly because they present themselves as authorities, as if what-they-say-is-how-things-are. Also related to this, when I do get "betrayed" like this, I do not care, don't even bother to make a distinction whether it was accidental or purposeful deception. All I see is deception. My stance on the matter is that being wrong has nothing to do with ones internal convictions, whether or not somebody was doing it on purpose or it was accidental, it's just incompetence. But I do make a distinction for the future." NOTE: by authority here I don't mean the government or the like, but generally people I "trust". I mean it in a personal manner.
- "I always, always regret voicing my opinion. Even when I do. I don't know, I somehow feel that other people know more and better then me so why would I compromise knowledge with my corrupt opinions. I feel as if there is nothing I can contribute. When in a discussion I primarily listen and internally build a coherent picture of what ever it is that is going on around me. But I never hesitate to correct people if they are mistaken on facts. Although I don't participate in it by voicing my opinion I still want to ensure that the discussion is "proper". NOTE: To add to this, if my "opinion" is a correct fact then I will voice it.
- "In matters where I'm suppose to do something, learn, show ability, I want somebody to hold my hand, to treat me like a child and offer me guidance and protection."
- "I'm afraid of being incapable. That someday, someway, all the effort I invest will not be enough to keep up. This is a constant fear at college where I stress at each new subject I get. I dislike new things for this very reason. I like to stick to what I know I can do and not fear whether or not I will be able to understand something, whether or not I will become useless."
- "I want concrete examples. In everything. Explaining will not cut it if you want me to perform in a preconceived manner. You have to show me in order for me to copy. I comprehend things in my own manner, which differs form other people."
- "I am unable to be an authority on anything personal or subjective. So I'm not able to discus topics like religion, or anything involving a stance. The matter is entirely different involving objective matters like taste." NOTE: I can discus topics like religion and so on if it is from an objective standpoint, like, whether something is valid within a given context and so on.
- I apparently cannot stand the following things: "fan behavior", "Believing things like thinking a frog jumping can somehow determine your destiny and other void indicators", " For example being totally in awe of crappy music because something about the performer's personal life is appealing to you and that automatically makes them crap gold" NOTE: This extends to other things as well like doing the same to family members or generally being in awe of something and placing something on a pedestal, " When people mindlessly follow something based on others input rather then personal judgment ".
- "I also can't stand people mindlessly repeating things they've heard or seen. Showing a thinking clearly defined by outside influences. Lacking individuality. I find that self derogatory, self defeating. I experience first repulsion, then at a safe distance shame and disgust."
- "I find that if I am comfortable, have all the right conditions, I am able to do a lot. Even to overcome my natural impulse to do nothing unless pressured to do it."
- "I expect other people to take care of my comfort. To do things for me. I get internally upset if a person "misses" my "needs". And this attitude caries on onto other things. Like for example I like to be spoon fed information. I'd much prefer if another person sat down with me and addressed my problems hands on, as I state them they show me a solution. Hands on solution. Not a theoretical explanation. I get annoyed when people offer me direction in stead of taking my hand and "solving the problem with my hands". I get lost in all the possibilities and never end up doing things by the book. But this is not something I intentionally do. I simply follow my way of thinking which seems to differ from common sense. Not to mention that I have sporadic perception, sometimes I see something, sometimes I miss it. When I miss it I fill in the gaps with my interpretation. Actually, this whole issue can be explained by my gaps in perception and me trying to fill them in with what I think should be there."
- "I'm super sensitive to whether I am upsetting someone. Like if something I am doing will cause somebody somewhere discomfort. I cannot bare discomforting anyone. Or in some way damaging someone. I'm always careful of others that take no heed and impose themselves upon others with no regard for them. For example I'm afraid to voice my opinion because I'm worried I might upset someone if I do. I just merely wait for the other person to ask for my opinion, presence, action, otherwise I try not to infringe. I also hate it when other people infringe upon my comfort. Like for example, listening loudly to music. I'm also annoyed by people that do not take steps to ensure not infringing upon other people's comfort, state of mind."
- "I consider other people's opinions, contributions as more valuable, valid then my own so I try not to upset/interfere with the development of things, with the functioning of environment by offering my influence opinion. I'm very bad at feedback, and offer it only when it is demanded of me."
- "I seek equilibrium. Everything I do, all the time. I seek consistency of trends, actions, beliefs, states but not thinking and perception. It's like I desire my life to be a television set merely to observe from the safety of my recliner."
- "I can't do things if everybody else is doing them. I need for them to be private indulgences. If one of my private indulgences becomes a public necessity then it loses all appeal." NOTE: An example of this is computer programming. It's become a public necessity in college now and it's just not a private indulgence right now and it's lost all of it's appeal and pleasure.
- "I don't like violence. I can't even think about it. The though/concept of serious injury seriously upsets me. I am the person who is very careful not to injure themselves." NOTE: I have never broken any bones nor have I even willfully engaged in an activity that might cause me displeasure in some way.
- "I can't face my own mistakes. I'd rather go to great lengths then have to have to deal with being wrong."
- "I have to have things clearly conceptually defined otherwise I just get lost."
- "I need to be winded up. I can't just "up and go". I need to slowly gather my momentum and once I have it I can keep going and going and going. Also slowing down can sometimes be a problem. Also switching heading, doing something else suddenly. I just don't function on impulse, I function continuously."
- "I require (demand) people's undivided attention. Only then can I engage in real discussion."
- "I'm the kind of person that goes to a lot of doctors until they hear what they want to hear. But this is a metaphor as I'm not a hypochondriac." NOTE: By this I meant that I search for an alternative opinion until I get one that I want to hear.
- "One thing I live by is that the system is not supposed to fail. Ever." NOTE: By this I meant that the system is supposed to be ideal, perfect, and if it is not we should strive to perfection. I didn't mean that the system is never wrong.
- "Do you like to be challenged? I most certainly don't. I want to take things my way."
- "I don't like receiving new things all the time, I like for things to remain still so that I can master them, perfect them, so that over time I can get better and better and they will become easier and easier. I don't like challenges and I don't like changes, I don't like anything with a time frame on it." NOTE: Very true. Very, very true.
- "I feel really guilty if I betray my obligations. This burning sense of guilt keeps haunting me until I do what ever I am suppose to do." NOTE: But only to people I hold to be of "value". That's value as in nobility, integrity not "how can I use them" value.
ok, here's the quote
"here's how i would go about answering the question: i tend to be a very secluded and isolated individual. however, most of the people i know are casual friends or casual acquaintances who i'm not really all that close with. i find it difficult to establish any kind of deep connection with anybody, and the result is that i have mostly superficial acquaintances, with whom i often seem to be discussing school-related topics or other topics pertinent in some way to mutual experiences that are going on."
and here are my questions when I look at it
How do you know you are secluded and isolated? How do you go about determining that? How do you know that you know most people casually? What is casual? What does it mean to you? What does it mean to them? Perhaps you think it's casual but it really isn't, you're just not recognizing it for what it really is? How do you know you are not close to these people? Can you with certainty say that tomorrow if something happened to some of them you would not realize that they meant more to you then you realize? How do you know you have or have not established deep relations with people? How do you know your perception of the relation is correct?
In the past I've thought it was probable that you weren't Beta based on conversations with you, but I've witnessed more of your interactions on the forum since and at this point think Beta is most likely. If not Beta, than Alpha.
I'm not really interested in delving into this matter though. I'm just letting you know what my current impressions are.
i think that most of these questions are completely specious. how do i know my relationships are casual? well, in short, most of the acquaintances i'm describing i only talk with at school or in other formalesque situations, and mostly only about school-related or other superficial situations; whereas i'll talk about deeper subjects with other people whom i trust more fully. can i say with certainty that tomorrow if something happened i wouldn't be sad? no, of course not. how do i know my perception is correct? uh...
i mean, come on. are you serious?
sneg, this is really really good. i think i have a good idea what type you are.
two more questions: how old are you? what do you do/study?
Well, for casual, I've had deep conversations with people I've never seen before, or with people whom I've know for some time but never got the opportunity to enter a lengthy discussion. That's why I said how can you be sure. Perhaps the truth is just beneath the surface, is a hidden potential. And you just don't know it because you've never experienced it.
Well, 19 and computer science. But the college is electro engineering, information technology and computer sciences. I say this because I was attracted by them all when I chose it.sneg, this is really really good. i think i have a good idea what type you are.
two more questions: how old are you? what do you do/study?
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