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Thread: Si Hidden Agenda of INFj and INTj

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    Cone's Avatar
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    Default Si Hidden Agenda of INFj and INTj

    What exactly does this mean for INTj/INFjs? I tried to explain to my INFj friend what I've been told this means, as in being physically healthy, but he can't really understand that. I mean, yes, I have seen his "anal retentive" side, i.e. always wanting to be clean, telling me to wash my hands before I touch food, picking out the parts of the food that could be harmful, even though they never cause any illness. But he seems to have another idea about it. He proposes that it may have to do with being not just physically healthy, but also spiritually healthy.

    In the description of Introverted Sensing, one of the adjectives that describes it is "harmony". Thus, it being a hidden agenda, it strives to find that "harmony" through physical and spiritual means. The spiritual means may embody being at peace with one's surroundings or believing in God. Maybe you guys can elaborate on that one.

    Here's the big thing that I've noticed about certain INTjs on this forum: they keep reiterating the idea of imitating other's behaviors. They say that they like to assimilate other people, perhaps in order to find an appearance that they like. Of course, the whole idea is to sort through all of these appearances in order to find your true appearance. Perhaps that's the INTj's life-long goal?

    And another thing: how do you verbally "attack" an INTj's or INFj's hidden agenda? It's very easy to attack an INTp's hidden agenda of "to love" (which must be the worst hidden agenda you can have!) All you have to do is to first find out who his secret crush is, and then threaten him to reveal who it is to people. Also, simply mentioning his crush's name can send his adrenaline into a frenzy. Oh well...

    Anyway, I hope you guys know more about the hidden agenda, "to be healthy", than I do.

    Your Quasi-Identical INTp friend,

    Cone
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    As an INTJ and a Socionist I would say it's extremely hard for me to examine the subconscious aspects of myself or my type or specific subconscious functions considering what is conscious cannot be subconscious. I have trouble with most of the subconscious aspects so I would say this...maybe express emotion(using as a linkage) that you don't care how this person feels...feels as in their mood, state of mind, ability to work, etc. I don't know really.
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    Ahhh yes it came to me now, tell them they are crazy, or crackpots. No, that might be an ego thing. As I said it's always hard to tell.
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    You're a Socionist?

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    My understanding of the "hidden agenda" seems to be that its something a person pays alot of attention to detail on but the details are always exagerated and fragmented since they are filtered through the more conscious functions. So an INTj and an INFj are going to have slightly different manifestations of the same hidden agenda. It seems like the phrase "to be healthy" is very maleable, like the jungian archetypes. one minute you have a solid interpretation in your hand but when you do it immediately slips through your fingertips.

    I actually have been curious about the INTj hidden agenda as well and have questioned an INTj about it alot. Sometimes I don't even have to since, especially under stress, the hidden agenda expresses itself in full force.
    I hate using people I know as examples but I will anyway since i dont have much extraverted feeling:

    these examples are two female INTj's i know, both between the ages of 18 and 21.

    -"subject A" decided not to go away to school because of the way in which the cafeteria prepares the food. the "grilled cheese" among other things "isn't prepared under sanitary conditions". this was the primary reason for this person to not attend this school.

    -Both "subject A" and "subject B" generally refuse offerings of food but occasionally, and with an heir of courage, will take, say, a single peanut and try to very non-challantly eat it in front of me.

    -"subject B", in moments of emotional stress would often go into a lengthy narration about the inability to "feel" and admit to pinching or even burning her arms in order to "feel"(as if out of touch with her body).

    - Both "subjects" discuss how they want to do some sort physical activity such as martial arts or fencing. When they do happen to start it never EVER lasts.

    -Both subjects forget to eat. They also both decide "not to drink cola anymore" When they go a week without drinking cola(BOTH OF THEM) they both express how proud they are that they didn't drink cola for a whole week. the next day they drink cola.

    -when asked to spontaneously exert minimal physical force in order to prevent a low speed boat collision "subject B" became flustered and confused and failed to prevent a very simple accident from occuring and then attempted to put the incident behind them as soon as possible.

    -both brush their teeth many times a day.

    -"subject B" developed bizarre bodily illusions, thought she had asthma(i dont think she did), and used all means at her disposal to avoid running the mile in gym class.

    -they attempt to "be like everyone else" such as trying to act like a girly girl even though they are clearly not. they'll try to act all sweet and smiley- sometimes do whatever you ask them to just to feel like they fit in.


    But those are just the bad things. The hidden agenda is nature's inherent way of sustaining equilibruim (sorta like osmosis). perhaps it keeps the dominant functions in check and motivates them in a worthwhile direction. There is no doubt, however, of the influence it has one conscious functions. The dominant functions attempt to rationalize the needs and imbalanced conclusions developed by the inferior functions.

    my guess, and its just my guess- but from my experiences i would assume there are alot of more personal elements to the Si hidden agenda. I think an INTj or an INFj would probably go insane if they found a hidden camera in their bathroom, and I'll leave it at that.

    But really, with all their weakness at sensing the IN*j types are great. i hope i didn't offend anyone(i wouldnt want anyone to not like me ).

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    You're a Socionist?
    Yes. Wait, no. Well, first define "you're"
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    Creepy-kaido21

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    F INTjs acting girly is hot? I begun to think about it. INTj has a emotionless face with eyes looking like they are in deep thought and they have this philosophers forehead, what makes them look vey serious. I really can't imagine someone looking like this acting girly.

    Can somone tell me about the dual seeking function? What makes it so special? I seem to be one of those introverted ENTps and that makes as my dual seeking function. But I have no idea, how this is related with dualisation. So could you guys give us A-Z about the dual seeking function.

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    Creepy-Jetto

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    Some Si possibilities in INTjs

    Si can manifest itself in an INTj obtaining an understanding of social norms (the domain of Fe-Si) and trying to pass for a "normal person"-b/c sadly, mainly INTjs feel as if they are eccentric. (ie what's cool at the present time, the hot bars, parties, clothing ect ), even if an INTj doesn't find these things to interesting, he often finds that is necessary to be aware of such things. Or it doesn't have to be well-accepted norm. But often INTjs will identify with a certain group and adopt some of their superficial qualities. Examples include INTjs in high school taking on characteristics of certain social groups (ie preppy, jockish, goth, stoner ect..). B/c deep out these seemingly cold INTjs want acceptance, and yes ultimately love just like other types.


    Peaceful surroundings often rejunivate INTjs and are often necessary for their well being.

    Many feel that working out occassionaly and eating fairly well is key (some do this compulsively) Some INTjs feel weak if they don't take their vitamins-things of this nature.
    One way to really freak out an INTj is for him (or her) to have unprotected sex with someone who he does not know well. While this activity could scare any type, it is especially rough on an INTj's Si. Every mark, every itch real or imagined in that special private area is analyzed for the next week, turning the INTj's life into a living hell.

    Hangovers can also affect INTjs more than other types. If I'm hungover and sleep deprived I become very irritable and generally unproductive. I notice this doesn't happen to INFps, so good chance this doesn't happen to INTps

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    Creepy-

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    Furthermore, if an INTj's neglects his Si, his POLR is absolutely shot.

    Example:

    One day I was really hungover and tired- just not feeling well. A cop pulled me over. Knowing I was dealing with an asshole authority figure (it seems this is the realm of Se, to an extent) and that I had rolling papers in my car and an empty ziplock bag, I just cracked. My hands started shaking, my lips started twiching and my voice started cracking. My nervousness was obvious, and as result, the cop searched my car.

    Had I been physically healthy at the time I would have been able to maintain my self-control. Live and learn.

    Jetto-INTj

  10. #10
    Creepy-

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    Quote Originally Posted by Pedro-The-Lion
    Lastly, when female INTJs act all girly that is super hot.

    Haha!
    As hot as it was it is it was really awkward for me when I experienced it. It was just so out of character and context. But that's just because of my weak feeling.

    now, as off topic as it is- I have this picture of my INTj ex seductively sprawled out across the back of a giant statue of a bear. I would post it but it would be too wrong and would eventually catch up with me. maybe i will eventually. its the most naive and awkward thing you could ever see.

    perhaps that's why it's so hot?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetto
    Some Si possibilities in INTjs

    Si can manifest itself in an INTj obtaining an understanding of social norms (the domain of Fe-Si) and trying to pass for a "normal person"-b/c sadly, mainly INTjs feel as if they are eccentric. (ie what's cool at the present time, the hot bars, parties, clothing ect ), even if an INTj doesn't find these things to interesting, he often finds that is necessary to be aware of such things. Or it doesn't have to be well-accepted norm. But often INTjs will identify with a certain group and adopt some of their superficial qualities. Examples include INTjs in high school taking on characteristics of certain social groups (ie preppy, jockish, goth, stoner ect..). B/c deep out these seemingly cold INTjs want acceptance, and yes ultimately love just like other types.
    Yes, very interesting. On the INTp's side, I think there's a huge lack of social norms and other things. I think that INTps seek an acceptance by people in a way not by imitating the behaviors of social groups, but rather by adopting an extremely passive attitude to their environment. I agree with everyone and dislike noone, and I think that's why I'm generally accepted by most people. Plus, because I'm pretty much at a higher intellectual level than anybody at my school, even most teachers, they tend to admire me for what I can do. And that is also my curse. I'm very isolated from everyone, and I only have about one friend who truly understands me. I have absolutely no help in the social world, and linked with Fe being the PoLR, it really hurts. I think most people either fear me or think I'm arrogant and unapproachable. I have an unconscious inhibition against showing any form of emotion (except maybe smiling), thus I find it absolutely impossible to be "free" with my emotions. I abhor any kind of surface emotionality in the media. If I'm watching a movie with others and a love scene or light sexual passion comes up, I have to get up and leave the room, or if I can't leave, I divert my eyes away from the TV and sometimes cover my ears until the scene is over. And I also have to leave the room if any type of emotional conflict appears between two people in the room. So I guess that's the Fi-Fe axis in the INTp.

    Here's another question: in what situations do INTjs feel that they have to leave the room? And is this caused by the hidden agenda or the PoLR?
    Binary or dichotomous systems, although regulated by a principle, are among the most artificial arrangements that have ever been invented. -- William Swainson, A Treatise on the Geography and Classification of Animals (1835)

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    Heated arguments over willpower, not emotion, make me leave the room. Physical fights don't really scare me, then again everyone becomes the same when they feel threatened with their life.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jetto
    Some Si possibilities in INTjs

    Si can manifest itself in an INTj obtaining an understanding of social norms (the domain of Fe-Si) and trying to pass for a "normal person"-b/c sadly, mainly INTjs feel as if they are eccentric. (ie what's cool at the present time, the hot bars, parties, clothing ect ), even if an INTj doesn't find these things to interesting, he often finds that is necessary to be aware of such things. Or it doesn't have to be well-accepted norm. But often INTjs will identify with a certain group and adopt some of their superficial qualities. Examples include INTjs in high school taking on characteristics of certain social groups (ie preppy, jockish, goth, stoner ect..). B/c deep out these seemingly cold INTjs want acceptance, and yes ultimately love just like other types.
    I think that trying to keep up with social norms would have more to do with Fe than Si. I dont see what social norms has to do with Si, keeping up with social norms seems like a feeling aspect(trying to relate to other human beings) than a sensing one(picking up the physcal and concrte aspects of information).

    I think that wanting to keep up with social norms might be something that concerns people who live in society, though, and wanting to keep up with social norms isnt really too deeply indictaive of your personality type. I think what your talking about is wanting to keep up with social norms even though you feel you cant, but I think thats a common difficulty among introverts.

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    Ok damit, it logged me out again after I had logged, that was me above, blah blah blah...

    Anyways another thing that was brought up was imitating others... I think that has more to do with Fi and wanting to connect to other people, or maybe even Ti and wanting to understand. Si is not about finding your "true self", that would be a job for a rational function, at least thats how it seems to me. Finding an indentity is about drawing conculsions about who you are and would be done by a rational function, albeit sometimes after taking in lots of information and sometime later changing your ideas about who your are. :wink:

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    Quote Originally Posted by Cheerio
    Anyways another thing that was brought up was imitating others... I think that has more to do with Fi and wanting to connect to other people, or maybe even Ti and wanting to understand. Si is not about finding your "true self", that would be a job for a rational function, at least thats how it seems to me. :wink:
    Your interpretation is a refelction of how you interpret reality based upon your strong and weak points. As far as my interpretation goes you can't, individually really ever know what a person is being at any given time.

    for example- what am i doing right now? am i being Ne? am i being Ti, or Fi? where, in all the time and the space that we occupy, do the functions fit? the truth is the function don't operate independently of one another. Whatever decision we make is brought upon by, and blended with all of the other functions. All you can decipher is the strength of certain functions and the weakness of others in any given situation. This is why you can have five people in a room stand around someone and each person will describe the person differently depending upon their types. Each person is using their strong functions in order to measure the situation, yet their weak functions affect their decision making as much as the weak functions affect the person they're observing. So an ESTp is going to look at an INTj and go "she's trying to be this, but is totally just looking like that" whereas an ENTp will look at the INTj and be almost totally oblivious as to what the ESTp sees and will see something very different. You could even say that the ENTp and INTj exist in one another's futures since the order and frequency in which they digest information are reversed.
    Its all like a hologram.

    So to get to the point- just because you can't see a manifestation of the hidden agenda doesn't mean it isn't there.

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    Creepy-Guest

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    One day I was really hungover and tired- just not feeling well. A cop pulled me over. Knowing I was dealing with an asshole authority figure (it seems this is the realm of Se, to an extent) and that I had rolling papers in my car and an empty ziplock bag, I just cracked. My hands started shaking, my lips started twiching and my voice started cracking. My nervousness was obvious, and as result, the cop searched my car.
    Couldn't you have told the cop that you deny him permission to search your car, and he would have had to comply unless he had a good reason (more than just your nervousness) to believe that you are doing something illegal?

  17. #17
    Creepy-celery seed

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    i'm a female intj who is involved with a male intj.

    i think i hurt his feelings when i said that i was very indifferent on our first date and wasn't expecting much at all.

    i also hit a soft spot when i said his responses (in our "emotional"/how do you feel about me conversations) were formulaic and predictable. (this probably relates to some latent inability to express emotions/experience the world without inhibiting and thinking things out beforehand.)

    and i have reacted similarly and been just as hurt when he has pushed for me to "experience" more. i imagined he was asking me to let go of my baseline! introverted intuition! how dare he! (; "experience" in the physical sense (extroverted sensing,) total loss of control and pure experience, can be a horrifying thought for me.

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    i think of Si as various mental associations with tangible real world things. this is why intjs give excellent gifts and can be romantic in a weird roundabout way (at least i think so.)

    for instance, say my best friend has a love for birds or we had some funny experience once involving birds. if i saw a set of parakeets or a book about birds that reminded me of her/our experience, i would buy that for her. it's really taking something that the person projects about themselves (possibly unconsciously, or a trait that is normally overlooked) and giving a tangible representation of your appreciation of that?? i think.

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    I haven't understood the functions, but I think that having Si coming into conciousness might make you feel something like this: imagine you are in a room where are people in different sexes, looks and atttitudes. Seing them by your Si is something like: ''This kid makes me feel ugly being next to him, that older woman is making me feel ugly and giving to my body the reaction of throw up, that woman makes me happy just by watching her, that man is making me feel that he is very strong.''

    Now Fe is something like this: imagine you are in a company of people. You will feel something like:'' I am so happy just by hearing this saying from that
    person; I am so sad when I hear him talking about his divorce; I want to laugh with that girl when she makes a new joke.'' As you can see, Fe is very feminite function.

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    Creepy-kaido21

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    to Pedro. I don't know actually why my portraits of the came out so negative as I am actually what we could say the fan of . But this whole thing in my self is so weak that I can't concendrate well into its level of existence.

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    this was taken from another socionics discussion

    Si as a Hidden Agenda (Tertiary Si) in the INTj and INFj

    In Socionics, the Mobilizing Function or the Tertiary in MBTI-based models has a quality attached to it called the Hidden Agenda (HA), a term coined by Sergei Ganin. As I understand it, the Hidden Agenda isn’t synonymous with the function, but rather is a sort of complex associated with the function, not unlike the Puer Aeturnus in the Beebe Model.

    The following is a summation of various expressions of this complex as it relates to introverted sensing.

    Ganin simply puts the Si Hidden Agenda as “to be healthy”, but how does this play out in the behavior of the INxjs? Elsewhere in Socionics theory, the dimensionality of the Mobilizing function is said to operate at a peak of personal norms with the lower level dimensionality of personal experience. The content associated with this functional perspective mostly relates to your personal code of standards experienced in a sort of "child-like" or "childish" manner. This is an area that you truly want to be more proficient in, but you don’t interpret the information concerning this area of life accurately, so you tend to look to others to model your behavior upon them, and for direct assistance in handling this part of life. Also implicit in the term Hidden Agenda is that it is something that is hidden about yourself from others and somewhat hidden from your conscious awareness.

    The definition of “To be healthy” for Si HA does not literally mean what it actually means to people of INxj types who are consciously aware of this desire in themselves. “To be healthy” is characterized by a warped, uneven, inconsistent interpretation of what this means and how to achieve it. A common characteristic of lower level Si is a poor body image or disconnect with bodily perceptions. There is often over-compensation in all matters related to this function as well. The first aspect that we can consider here is that HA Si looks to others to model and imitate other’s behavior and appearance to a certain degree, but it just can’t. INxjs are often not imposing of physical built (with some exceptions) and may feel inadequate due to this, and wish to bulk up (men) or slim down (women) by exercising and lifting weights. Another problem arises here is that they feel awkward, uncomfortable, and sometimes down right horrified by the prospect of stepping into the foreign area of a gym, having to use new exercise machines without anyone's instruction or help, and exposing themselves and their body to the on-look of others. This hits them in several ways from an Si perspective. First there is the issue of having to handle and organize this new space and objects in it. Then there is the issue of doing it in an unfamiliar environment, and the difficulty of building and sticking to a routine despite feeling inconvenienced and awkward. An INxj is more likely to buy some dumb-bells from a self-checkout line and find a work-out routine from YouTube videos and do it in the privacy of their own home, or go out jogging in the mornings when everyone is asleep, until they give up a few weeks later still feeling a disconnect from their bodies and the Si discomfort that the exercise has caused them.

    In the matter of appearance, there is this odd contradiction here as both types are fiercely independent when it comes to their dominant Ti or Fi, yet they have a desire to blend in and assimilate in sensory respects with their appearance. They may take on the exercise methods developed and recommended by others to them. They may act like a chameleon when it comes to appearance, mimicking the way others dress, maybe trying to be a little more put together than quite a few other types. It is as if they are hyper-conscious of dressing appropriately for how they wish others to see them and what function they need to play. Developed tertiary Si types would be mortified by wearing sweat pants in public or a short-sleeve button-up shirt with a tie, as they were once told that it makes them look like Dwight Shrute (under-developed types may not have this awareness, but I think that is more pertinent to 1D Si of ENxps). Maybe it is a strict personal code that you never wear white socks with black shoes, because someone made fun of you for doing so once years ago. All of this is ultimately motivated by one’s inferior function.

    Keeping up with the times and current events may become a matter of importance for these types. For example, Keeping up with the Kardashians or Game of Thrones may not particularly interest them in itself, but the desire to keep up with and understand culture and recent social developments is. They do not want to be left out of the "stream of information" as well as being able to follow along and feel connected to sensory impressions of the outside world. They may also want to know the “places to be” in town, such as the best bars and clubs and restaurants, even if they don't have much desire to sit around there themselves. This comes back to a desire for an awareness of their environment and mirroring the perceptions of others.

    INxjs may also have an odd relationship with their sense of health. They may develop certain habits of washing hands religiously, brushing teeth with the most advanced toothbrush known to man (that is also the most practical), or may form an aversion to certain additives, while ignoring others. The latter may be the sort of thinking that I may smoke a pack a day and never exercise, but at least I don’t put Splenda and soy in my seven cups of coffee. That shit will kill you. Did you know that Splenda was originally developed as a pesticide and soy can make a man grow breasts? How could you put that into your body? This is the irrational side of an otherwise rational person. These quirks stand out like a sore thumb, especially to a higher level Si user.

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