What INTjs and INTps are not!

[Hitta]

INTj are not, despite common believes, business idiots. As a matter of fact, INTjs are very economical. One common thing about INTjs is their support for libertarianism. They usually strongly support free trade and free association. INTjs, despite common believes, are not naturally passive people. Though they may be very passive in what they do, like they may stay in bed a lot or have a hard time forcing themselves through things, they are very aggressive and usually have tons of ideas to attempt to implement. INTjs are usually very rebellious and if not for their social anxiety they would be awesome leaders. As a matter of fact, the core of the INTj ideologies lie on their need to lead people to freedom, or start some type of revolution. INTjs at heart are revolutionaries; they usually hate authority of all kinds. Areas of expertise for INTjs are Physics, Chemistry, Economics, Law, Political Science, Philosophy or anything that they can be rebellious or spread their creative wings.

Enneagram type: 5w4

INTps are not, despite common believes, people that strive to be original or creative. Their pleasantries lie in their abilities to make connections between things. They usually have a strong moral compass, and usually have philosophical believes that are along the lines of spirituality and how the human mind connects with an all powerful being. One ability that INTps do better than anyone is prediction. Their foresight along with their ability to make connections between things without evidence allows them to easily predict the future based on small details. INTps are not grumpy or mean people at all. They are usually quite polite. When the INTp finds something that they dislike about someone they are quick to disapprove or quick to disassociate themselves from that person. INTps are extremely defensive. When someone places parameters around them that they disapprove of, they are sometimes quick to lash out. They are usually, though, not the type of people to go against the balance of forces. INTps are usually extreme loyalists. Areas of expertise for INTps are Business forecaster, Business Analyst, Spiritual Philosopher, Religion, or anything that requires foresight or loyalty to their studies.

Enneagram type: 5w6

[Phaedrus]

INTj are not, despite common believes, business idiots.

Who believes that? I have never seen it, if I recall correctly.

As a matter of fact, INTjs are very economical.

Correct.

One common thing about INTjs is their support for libertarianism. They usually strongly support free trade and free association.

That, however, is probably not correct. The type descriptions tell us a totally different story (check Stratiyevskaya's for example), and I would tend to agree with them. My hypothesis is that having as leading function makes libertarianism look alien to you. My real life experiences with INTjs indicate that INTjs are more inclined to adopt various forms of socialist ideas. And I believe that free trade and free association in general is more of a Gamma than an Alpha thing. Please prove me wrong if you can; it's only a strong hypothesis -- not one of my "indisputable facts".

INTjs, despite common believes, are not naturally passive people.

Absolutely correct (but only a person who doesn't understand the types and hasn't read the type descriptions would come up with the idea that INTjs are naturally passive people).

Though they may be very passive in what they do, like they may stay in bed a lot or have a hard time forcing themselves through things, they are very aggressive and usually have tons of ideas to attempt to implement.

That is more true of INTps than INTjs, but maybe both types can be described that way in some cases. If you think that what you describe is true of INTjs but not of INTps you are wrong.

INTjs are usually very rebellious and if not for their social anxiety they would be awesome leaders.

True in a sense.

As a matter of fact, the core of the INTj ideologies lie on their need to lead people to freedom, or start some type of revolution.

I think I have to agree with that too.

INTjs at heart are revolutionaries; they usually hate authority of all kinds. Areas of expertise for INTjs are Physics, Chemistry, Economics, Law, Political Science, Philosophy or anything that they can be rebellious or spread their creative wings.

Nothing entirely wrong about that either, I suppose.

Enneagram type: 5w4

That is highly questionable though, but I am not 100 % certain that you are wrong about it.

INTps are not, despite common believes, people that strive to be original or creative.

Correct in a sense. (But I object to your claim that they are commonly believed to be that way, at least outside of this forum.)

Their pleasantries lie in their abilities to make connections between things.

Correct.

They usually have a strong moral compass

Yes.

and usually have philosophical believes that are along the lines of spirituality and how the human mind connects with an all powerful being.

A common claim that looks highly questionable if compared with reality (= the actual views of real life INTps). Maybe it is mostly a myth that INTps are like that.

One ability that INTps do better than anyone is prediction. Their foresight along with their ability to make connections between things without evidence allows them to easily predict the future based on small details.

Correct.

INTps are not grumpy or mean people at all. They are usually quite polite.

Correct.

When the INTp finds something that they dislike about someone they are quick to disapprove or quick to disassociate themselves from that person.

Probably correct in most situations.

INTps are extremely defensive. When someone places parameters around them that they disapprove of, they are sometimes quick to lash out. They are usually, though, not the type of people to go against the balance of forces.

No objection.

INTps are usually extreme loyalists.

What does that mean? Examples, please.

Areas of expertise for INTps are Business forecaster, Business Analyst, Spiritual Philosopher, Religion, or anything that requires foresight or loyalty to their studies.

Mostly correct.

Enneagram type: 5w6

Again that is questionable. But we are talking about the wings of a type in a theory that is much worse than Socionics, so what's the big deal really? It's for the most part a waste of time to debate whether it is the INTp or the INTj that is the best fit for 5w4 and 5w6 respectively. Let's focus on how those two types are described in Socionics.

[Hitta]

if you think that libertarianism is a gamma belief and that socialism is an alpha belief you are wrong, i can tell you that much

[Phaedrus]

if you think that libertarianism is a gamma belief and that socialism is an alpha belief you are wrong, i can tell you that much

That is an interesing subject that is worth discussing. I am basing my hypothesis on the socionic type descriptions (especially the LII ones) and my real life encounters with representatives for each quadra. What are you basing your claim on?

One way to go is to discuss the types of famous people. I have asked you several times to join such a debate, and now you have the chance again to share your opinions.

Take someone like Milton Friedman, for example. I think we can agree to put him in the libertarian camp, don't you agree? Which type do you think he is (most likely)?

Can you name a famous libertarian LII (I am not suggesting that they don't exist, but I like to know which people you think are examples of each type and each economic view)?

[Hitta]

Friedman was probably an ENTp. The Iconic figure of INTjs was a libertarian: Thomas Jefferson. INTj have an incredibly strong need to be free. This is probably the most defining characteristics of INTjs(I've read this from tons of descriptions). An INTj would not like socialism because it is limiting, restrictive, and regulated. INTjs usually believe in spontaneous order. If you think like this Phaedrus you probably aren't INTp.

[Phaedrus]

Friedman was probably an ENTp.

Why? Some hints?

The Iconic figure of INTjs was a libertarian: Thomas Jefferson.

He might have been an INTj, but I haven't studied him.

INTj have an incredibly strong need to be free. This is probably the most defining characteristics of INTjs(I've read this from tons of descriptions).

I don't disagree with that. It is also clearly stated in the MBTT INTJ type descriptions. But some INTjs have the incorrect belief that freedom is compatible with socialism, as for example in collectivst versions of anarchism (Kropotkin, Proudhon, syndicalism).

An INTj would not like socialism because it is limiting, restrictive, and regulated.

Unless they adopt it for the reasons I mentioned. And how do you explain Stratiyevskaya's explicit linking of LIIs with socialism?

INTjs usually believe in spontaneous order. If you think like this Phaedrus you probably aren't INTp.

My father is an INTj of the collectivist anarchist kind. He does not believe in capitalism. We share the individualism, but I am more of an individualist in my thinking than he is, whereas he might be more of an individualist than I am in practice. I defend the view that freedom is only compatible with a free capitalist market, and that no freedom is possible if you don't have the right to private property. He doesn't understand that, because he hasn't studied national echonomy enough (or misunderstood the basic concepts).

And what do you think of the types of such figures as Jeremy Bentham, Adam Smith etc.? What about John Locke?

[Hitta]

Why? Some hints?


He might have been an INTj, but I haven't studied him.


I don't disagree with that. It is also clearly stated in the MBTT INTJ type descriptions. But some INTjs have the incorrect belief that freedom is compatible with socialism, as for example in collectivst versions of anarchism (Kropotkin, Proudhon, syndicalism).


Unless they adopt it for the reasons I mentioned. And how do you explain Stratiyevskaya's explicit linking of LIIs with socialism?


My father is an INTj of the collectivist anarchist kind. He does not believe in capitalism. We share the individualism, but I am more of an individualist in my thinking than he is, whereas he might be more of an individualist than I am in practice. I defend the view that freedom is only compatible with a free capitalist market, and that no freedom is possible if you don't have the right to private property. He doesn't understand that, because he hasn't studied national echonomy enough (or misunderstood the basic concepts).

And what do you think of the types of such figures as Jeremy Bentham, Adam Smith etc.? What about John Locke?

I'm 100% certain that John Locke was an Alpha. Bentham and Smith were most probably Alpha too. Where exactly did you see where INTj was linked with socialism lol? Thats pretty much the opposite of what I've read.

[Logos]

if you think that libertarianism is a gamma belief and that socialism is an alpha belief you are wrong, i can tell you that much

You can tell us that much, but that does not mean that what you tell us is necessarily correct.

I'm 100% certain that John Locke was an Alpha. Bentham and Smith were most probably Alpha too. Where exactly did you see where INTj was linked with socialism lol? Thats pretty much the opposite of what I've read.

Hitta, what type do you think was Karl Marx?

[Hitta]

ENFj or INFp

[Logos]

ENFj or INFp

Why?

[Hitta]

because from the personality queues in communist manifesto and looking at his lifestyle and ideologies, ENFj or INFp is the most logical philosophy.

[Suomea]

....

[Logos]

because from the personality queues in communist manifesto and looking at his lifestyle and ideologies, ENFj or INFp is the most logical philosophy.

That's a non-answer. So once more: Why an ENFj or INFp?

[Hitta]

Ugh..... just ugh.

DIAF

[Hitta]

That's a non-answer. So once more: Why an ENFj or INFp?

What exactly do you want me to tell you? He believed in Collective Liberalism, which I believe is a Beta Philosophy.

[Phaedrus]

Where exactly did you see where INTj was linked with socialism lol? Thats pretty much the opposite of what I've read.

"The social ideas Of robesp'era better and the more successfully realize the weaker the contradiction between its theory and conditions actually existing in the society. History shows: than higher level of the mother Alni welfare of the society, the more easily are inoculated in it the ideas of universal (robesp'erovskogo) equality and validity (as an ex­ample it is possible to compare "robesp'erovskiy socialism" of the times of great French revolution and period of "war Communism" in Russia with socialism, accepted in modern Sweden, which today can be considered the model of the realization of robesp'erovskoy social theory) the logical pro­gram Of robesp'era more successfully realizes, the more successfully goes the search for possibili­ties in each concrete situation that it is reached because of flexibility and manipulativeness of the robesp'erovskoy "intuition of possibilities", which creatively uses such "tools" as the "method of in­dividual approach" and the "method of the levelling off of the possibilities", which are reduced to the coordination of individual possibilities."

As a sidenote, Sweden is typed as INTj by some socionists, and I fully agree with it. That the typing is correct was convincingly demonstrated in a very good series about Swedish mentality that was sent in Swedish TV some year ago.

[Jarno]

I have to agree on the INTP part.

Although I don't know if they are all that spiritual/religious.

@Phaedrus: extreme loyalist;
- Yes, to friends, helping out etc.
- No, to keeping a job.

[Logos]

What exactly do you want me to tell you? He believed in Collective Liberalism, which I believe is a Beta Philosophy.

Telling me that he is because he is happens to be a very non-INTj answer. You are just doing a very poor job of telling me why exactly I should believe that he is an ENFj or INFp.

[Phaedrus]

Hitta! Have you looked at the relevant passage in Stratiyevskaya's LII description? What do you say about it?

We seem to agree on many things when it comes to how to describe INTjs and INTps, but in order to determine with more certainty whether we interpret the type descriptions the same way or not, I think it is necessary that we try to reach a consensus on at least some famous person's types.

I am still waiting for an example of a famous INTp. Now, please provide at least one example so we can see whether we agree on that or not. We should continue until we find at least one person whose type we both agree on.

Do you think that Kant was an INTj? Can we agree on his type or not? What do you think of Schopenhauer? What about Wittgenstein? What do you think of Vladimir Putin (his type is very important, I think)?

[Brilliand]

I believe that socialism is the best system when chosen freely - that is, it is the best system to choose freely, but choosing freely is more important than being socialist. Capitalism is the best system to force on people, because it leaves plenty of wiggle room without being lawless. Since I am INTj, my opinion is relevant.

[MysticSonic]

Edit- You know what...nevermind.