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Thread: Dual or Individual?

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    Default Dual or Individual?

    the dual interaction seems to be the cause of the absence of the social complex. not danielle herself.

    but hey, just my opinion '-)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    the dual interaction seems to be the cause of the absence of the social complex. not danielle herself.

    but hey, just my opinion '-)
    i can see what u mean by this, but idk if there were more Fe-valuers there if this would still hold water.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    the dual interaction seems to be the cause of the absence of the social complex. not danielle herself.
    no. you're wrong. you're a moron. go away.

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    Thanks for sharing the material, niffweed. You can of course dismiss Jarno and me as much as you like, but at least I understand what you are talking about much better than you might think. What you describe confirms that you are an ILI, and it confirms that you have Asperger. If you want to read more about that phenomenon, here is a link that I personally like, written by a person who in many respects is rather similar to both of us: http://home.att.net/~ascaris1/index.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    no. you're wrong. you're a moron. go away.
    if this is your way of dealing with people, then I might I know the reason why you have no friends '-)

    ofcourse socially inept is a nice excuse to justify insulting... IMO you're just an arrogant idiot.

    I happen to have experienced a lot dual interactions, and I can tell you, those things you describe, you would experience them with all SEE.

    So it's probably not just Danielle, it's a dual thing.

    Hope you understand this. probably not because of your inexperience.
    Last edited by Jarno; 02-17-2008 at 12:33 AM.

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    god what a moron.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    god what a moron.
    You see me as a threat because you try to devaluate me? '-)

    I'll try to see it as a compliment.

    please continue your life in denial.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    what was irritating about rick was his constant focus on Si issues. for example, we moved from one restaurant to another because rick disliked the atmosphere of the first restaurant; the tables and chairs were green, red, and blue, and according to rick we had to leave because there were "too many primary colors." it was annoying how he kept caring about his surrounding environment. but it was tolerable.
    Heh, I guess I was lucky then, since Rick seemed to like the places I picked, both in London and Duesseldorf.

    Something else -- I confess I'm at a loss at the point Jarno is making. The way I see it, niffweed's goal was to present a truthful, accurate description of his experiences in Boston, and as they relate to his life experiences so far. The interactions with Danielle were particularly worthy of reporting and so report them he did. So far, it is not even necessary to include socionics analysis one way or the other -- that can come later, if at all.

    Sure, socionics does provide an explanation as to why, precisely, niffweed felt particularly comfortable when interacting with Danielle, and since they had been both independently typed as ILI and SEE, it confirms that socionics works -- unless they were consciously "forcing themselves" to be comfortable around each other as in "gee, this person is my dual, I have to be comfortable around him/her" - a notion that I mention to illustrate its ridiculousness.

    But, be that as it may, I find Jarno's comment to be a bit of a stretch. The way I see it, he's essentially dismissing the relevance of Danielle and niffweed as individuals, and saying that it would have been exactly the same with any dual. That does sound to me a bit of a stretch. For instance, was reyn_til_runa feeling exactly the same way and interacting the same way as niffweed to Danielle to everyone else? Is every interaction with a dual exactly the same? Do individual personalities and circumstances play no role?

    It seems to me that niffweed's point was:

    "I had this interesting experience to report, with a particular person; this may provide useful information for socionics".

    And then Jarno:

    "The particular person was not important. It would have been exactly the same with any other SEE".

    I see that as two views (and I stand corrected if wrong, but then I'd like to ask why it is wrong):

    niffweed: "I met a person, Danielle, and she happens to be SEE which helps to explains our interactions".

    Jarno: "You met a SEE, which explains everything. She happens to be a person called Danielle, but that's not important".

    Is this an unfair analysis?
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    ...
    Last edited by Suomea; 10-16-2008 at 01:04 AM.
    Suomea

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Do individual personalities and circumstances play no role?
    Sure they do.

    But I'm referring to the effects that he describes, which are the result of being with his dual.

    But Niffgod is making an error to adress these effects to an individual, instead of "a dual".

    For example:

    "Interacting one-on-one with Danielle was as comfortable as it was for two main reasons. One of these reasons is that Danielle is a highly kind, trustworthy, individual. The other reason... she took the initiative"

    So I just wanted to point that out.

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    apparently jarno can look at the same situation as me, derive the same exact conclusion, and be wrong anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    apparently jarno can look at the same situation as me, derive the same exact conclusion, and be wrong anyway.
    Nice to see you making such effort to prove my points about you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jarno View Post
    Sure they do.

    But I'm referring to the effects that he describes, which are the result of being with his dual.

    But Niffgod is making an error to adress these effects to an individual, instead of "a dual".

    For example:

    "Interacting one-on-one with Danielle was as comfortable as it was for two main reasons. One of these reasons is that Danielle is a highly kind, trustworthy, individual. The other reason... she took the initiative"

    So I just wanted to point that out.
    You do realize that not all ESFps are highly kind and trustworthy, no? This interaction could have taken place with a kind and trustworthy XXXx. It is perfectly reasonable to emphasize the individual over type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    It is perfectly reasonable to emphasize the individual over type.
    Not in this context. For example, if Danielle would have been an ESE, niffweed would not have felt as comfortable as he did. In that case the type would have been more important than the individual, at least after a couple of hours. That is inevitable.

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    I think in order to feel that comfortable, she needed to be at least a compatible type, and a dual worked very well for that obviously. But I don't think a person would be equally comfortable with any dual. A dual with very strong and contrary political or religious beliefs, etc., wouldn't be that great a match no matter what types the people are. They'd just argue very effectively.
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    .

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    wow this is the most retarted, useless thread i think i've ever read. first of all to anyone who cares- r u kidding?!?!?!?!
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    Quote Originally Posted by liveandletlive View Post
    wow this is the most retarted, useless thread i think i've ever read. first of all to anyone who cares- r u kidding?!?!?!?!
    Stick around a little longer and I guarantee you that you'll see worse.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Stick around a little longer and I guarantee you that you'll see worse.
    wow... pretty sad.
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    Am I missing something here? This was part of another thread and now it's all on it's own? How did this happen? Why was I not informed? [Edit: checked out the original thread, ?'s answered]

    Also, fwiw, I think this whole issue is completely overblown. Socionics rests on the assumption that certain types will generally find themselves more easily compatible than others. True. But the distinction between people of the same type can't be overstressed enough. Every type has flaws and every type has people who embody these shortcomings tremendously.

    That a dual is the most compatible type guarantees nothing. At best it's probably more of 70/30 type dealie, but it falls all on the particulars of a specific set of interactions between two individuals of the respective types. Personally, I'm not so sure you're trying to make the case that this isn't so. More like you're just focusing intensely on that (presumed) 70%. I've met (lived with, even) an LSE with whom I never became too close. That doesn't merit that one of us is not the type in consideration (though maybe the flaws fell more on my side than his).
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    Their Eyes Were Watching God was really good. You might look into it.

    Whatever you do, though, don't ever watch the Oprah made-for-tv version of it. I mean, ouch! Seriously, if you read the book then watch that, you'll throw up a little in your mouth.
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    In my opinion, the issue is this --

    Gamma NTs, with in the super-id, long for establishing connections with, yes, specific individuals, but are often insecure about it. In fact, even if it may look otherwise due to their IP temperament and PoLR, ILIs are more confident of the status of an established relationship than LIEs (ILIs have as hidden agenda rather than dual-seeking).

    So, niffweed was confident - probably rarely for him - of having established a connection with, yes, a particular individual, Danielle. That Danielle is SEE helps to explain how it happened; but that does not diminish the importance of the individual connection.

    What Jarno then did was essentially pooh-pooh this (and therefore directly touch on niffweed's HA), saying that niffweed wasn't understanding it, and it had nothing to do with the individual, it was the dual; any other dual would have "done the job". Which niffweed (rightly imo) saw as offensive.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    What Jarno then did was essentially pooh-pooh this (and therefore directly touch on niffweed's HA), saying that niffweed wasn't understanding it, and it had nothing to do with the individual, it was the dual; any other dual would have "done the job". Which niffweed (rightly imo) saw as offensive.
    But it wasn't. And here you misunderstand what Jarno was doing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Gamma NTs, with in the super-id, long for establishing connections with, yes, specific individuals, but are often insecure about it. In fact, even if it may look otherwise due to their IP temperament and PoLR, ILIs are more confident of the status of an established relationship than LIEs (ILIs have as hidden agenda rather than dual-seeking).
    Are you certain about this? I haven't observed anything that points in one or the other direction, and the theory-based motivations can lead to different conclusions:

    - The creative function is more "valued" and thus also the corresponding function of the axis will be more valued, thus for example an INTp will tend to put more thought into Fi than an ENTj
    - The creative function is weaker than the base function and thus the corresponding function of the axis will be less prominent
    - Subtypes can account for both of the possibilities listed above, but also can't if you don't believe strongly in subtypes
    - Jung said that the hidden agenda (he did not call it this way, instead saying that "the subconscious function of the auxiliary is more repressed", the substance is however the same) tends to be more repressed than the suggestive. However, this again can lead to two different conclusions: more repression might mean more outward appearance ("leakage") of the function, or less.
    - Compatibility with the dual: Depending on which side we prefer in the first two points above, either an ESFp gives more importance to Fi than an ISFj, or less, or depends on subtypes. So, looking at the problem from this angle does not solve the issue.

    (nothing to do with the point Jarno was making, btw, which I don't agree with personally)
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    *shrug* you're making it too complicated imo -- I was anyway referring to "mainstream" ILIs and LIEs, as per a simple model A structure, without getting into subtypes, and anyway my personal observations so far confirm what I've said, and it makes sense imo.

    On Jung, I make a point of not mixing Jung's typology with socionics.

    But as for compatibility with the dual -- at one point I also wondered which subtype combination is most favorable for duality; more recently I have inclined to the view that individual variations are at least as important, regardless of the validity of subtypes.

    And yes, I can see that it has nothing to do with Jarno's point
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    For the people who still think the experience of interaction is more based on individuals then types, I might have a nice example.

    Igor Weisband told he checked the type of person A by putting him in a room with a person B (of which he knew the type 100% sure) which he knew would create a very comforting atmosphere when they would interact.

    If afterwards the interaction was comforting, his typing of person A would be right, if the interaction wasn't comforting, his typing needed extra attention.

    So this example clearly shows the confidence of Igor that the experience of interactions are mostly dependend on people's types.

    And IMO this is especially the case when someone describes the relationship with details according to how Socionics predicts it, like in the story of Boston.

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    The effect of type on relationships is similar to the effect of type on overall personality. It models (key word is models, not defines) certain aspects of the relationship based on the types involved, however:

    a) It does not cover absolutely every aspect
    b) There is still much room for individual variation

    I'm lucky enough to be working with 4 SEEs in my current job; three female and one male. Though there's clearly friendship between us in all four cases, the level of closeness between me and each one varies because each one is different as an individual. Reminds me of an SEE I used to work with in my old job (back then I knew absolutely nothing of Socionics) and although we were good friends, I wouldn't trust her with sensitive information because I knew that while her intentions were genuine, she was terrible at keeping secrets. However, other SEEs I know I would quite happily tell them something I don't want anyone else knowing. It doesn't prevent us from being close in any way, but there's a basic example of differences within the same type of relationship.
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    Quote Originally Posted by BLauritson View Post
    but there's a basic example of differences within the same type of relationship.
    sure, i will never dispute that.

    But duals have also got similarities. And especially those were described in the boston paper. Therefor my remark, not to emphasize the individuality of the person.
    Last edited by Jarno; 02-19-2008 at 11:30 AM.

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