Apparently it's not the 21st century.
Man, are you so surprised? They just stopped beating women to death for showing too much skin in public.
We really need to find a way to stop buying oil from them.Originally Posted by Gilly
In their calendar it is, in my understanding, year 1429.
*growls* Wanna smack some people.
Johari/Nohari
"Tell someone you love them today, because life is short; shout it at them in German, because life is also terrifying."
Fruit, the fluffy kitty.
from ayn rand wikipedia:
Rand supported Israel during the 1973 Arab-Israeli War, which she saw as an attack on a government that supported individual rights: "The Arabs are one of the least developed cultures. They are typically nomads. Their culture is primitive, and they resent Israel because it's the sole beachhead of modern science and civilization on their continent. When you have civilized men fighting savages, you support the civilized men, no matter who they are."[45]
a nice thought.
asd
The Israeli Government is not all that civilized either...
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
How about this one: stop buying oil.
true, but make a rational comparison.
asd
Yeah but when you consider all the facts, the way the US behaves on a global scale ends up looking worse than (and being one of many causes of) terrorism to begin with, so we don't go down that road. Pointing the finger is a little more convenient.
Terrorism is caused by religious extremists, and religious provocation. Why would a Muslim give a shit about Jerusalem unless some really unlikely/stupid religious event happened there?
The United States has set up a legal system based around fundamental human principles rather than books written by unknown sources. Many other European nations have adopted a similar set of ideals, and nations who haven't will always garner my disdain. But considering the legal guidelines of the Qur'an, and four schools of laws which are borne from it(and dominate the Islamic world), there are many parallels between our system and theirs, but as evidenced by the article: there is still a lack of justice in their system. You really need to stop being an American apologist and be more objective. We give suspected terrorists trials in which there is least the ideal of fairness present. consider that.
asd
There are lots of places in the world where savagery and barbarism rule -- in lots of them it's not "the 21st century".
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
I consider the death penalty and torture barbarism and savagery.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I was planning to come here and write a post about how amazed I am that a "Kim intervention" has not occurred yet. Only to find out it has occurred.
Because they LIVED THERE and were forced out; that has nothing to do with the religious significance of their land.
So? The people who laid down the Qu'ran thought that their principles were just as universal as we believe ours to be. The is no "right" way for humans to live. At least their ideals only dictate that they take aggressive action after their homeland has been bodily invaded.The United States has set up a legal system based around fundamental human principles rather than books written by unknown sources.
And, quit using pointless labels like "apologist." Either tell me what it is I'm saying that you disagree with or admit that you have nothing to say.
?
Glad I didn't disappoint!
I admit it was a rather lame attempt at intervening...of course the case is barbaric, but of course it will turn into a Islam bashing thread. Anyway, I haven't got the energy to fully engage right now.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
Any civilized human being knows that the barbarians of the Myddlle Easte are backward; culturally, mentally and physically.
hey i live in egypt
and i've been to palestine
palestinians are unhappy about 500 checkpoints in their own territory that ruin their economy
about being walled out of jerusalem, their capital
about jewish settlements that are designed to push more palestinians out
i've been in jerusalem and a lot of palestinians live there. oh and they have to have different color license plates and drive on different roads because of the color of their skin. and wdait at israeli checkpoints for 3 -12 hours to go to work in a neighboring city within their own territory for no fucking reason. i bet some of you would strap bombs to your chest too.
btw the arabian peninsula is not like the rest of the middle east. its definitely more medieval, but i haven't visited it yet (i'll let you know when i do) there are conservatives in egypt but stuff like that generally doesn't happen here. most people here are self-described moderate. so fuck ayn rand too.
THE BEARD HEARD HIS MOVEMENT AND MADE AN ATTACK RUN BUT DID NOT ACTUALLY ATTACK HIM
viva palestina
I understand your sentiment about current objectivists. Most of the philosophy is valid however, except about where they go into topics such as markets (markets are amoral, not immoral like socialists claim or inherently moral like an objectivist would claim). There are many more things that many objectivists say that is not entirely accurate due to inductive reasoning that can sometimes be invalid.
btw, thanks for the input, coming from someone who has actually seen it over there. I have not.
just my two cents.
"Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
--Theodore Roosevelt
"Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
-- Mark Twain
"Man who stand on hill with mouth open will wait long time for roast duck to drop in."
-- Confucius
Personal opinion: when the world learns about a future shortage of a vital resource that is even already becoming scarce and incredibly expensive, I would think it natural for, if nobody else, the most wealthy country in the world to begin developing a sustainable solution with serious intent. It just seems like a generally good idea to me, regardless of the specifics. I used to know plenty of compelling facts about ozone depletion, water and air pollution, etc, but really, it just seems like a no-brainer to me. I know there are huge problems with infrastructure and so forth, but it's got to be done, and even ignoring the fact that we ARE going to run out of usable amounts of oil eventually, it would help us in the long run economically and technologically to be the first "green" country.
The US will never catch up to Europe at this point. But at least now there is an effort to go green here. Thanks, Al Gore!
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
.
With Barack Lolbama at the helm we will hope our way to a greener future.
Fuck Hillary.
I have been wondering why Hillary bashing has been so trendy lately. Especially among liberals.
“Life shrinks or expands in proportion to one's courage.”
― Anais Nin
I'm wondering why someone who claims to be a Liberal Democrat in the United States of America votes to go to war then turns around and tries to point the finger of blame for said war on a fellow senator who didn't, and vehemently opposed the war even before earning a seat in the senate. Obama may not have had a vote at the time, but at least he didn't fall for Bush's bullshit like the dumber 70% of our population.I have been wondering why Hillary bashing has been so trendy lately. Especially among liberals.
Sorry Gilly, but this is all sheer nonsense, absolute rubbish.
There is no danger - none whatsoever - of running out of oil. Or yes, of oil itself, technically speaking. So? The United States alone has untapped coal reserves whose energy content dwarf those of Saudi Arabia's oil reserves, and if you add the coal reserves of China - and then South Africa - the horizons are suddenly expanded beyond belief.
And I'm not talking of burning coal -- I'm talking of converting coal into fuel. Yes, gas, diesel, kerosene, feedstock for plastic, everything you get today out of oil. It is a perfecly feasible process, technologically and economically (especially at today's oil prices), which already accounts for 40% of South Africa's consumption of "oil". It's a process known as Fischer-Tropsch, known since before WWII, and the company doing it in South Africa is called Sasol. You can check it even in Wikipedia, or in endless other sources.
I don't need to consult Wikipedia because I actually worked in R&D in that field in South Africa for two years, and this kind of stuff is part of my resume.
Moreover, there is also the alternative of using natural gas instead of coal, and guess what, it's also already being done. In several ways. New Zealand had a plant built, in the 1980s - which later was mothballed - that would have converted natural gas into gasoline, to supply 30% of their needs.
All the major oil companies in the world know this, and have access to the technology. And yes. there is enough coal and natural gas.
Now, of course there are two issues:
1) In terms of CO2 emission, those process are worse than using oil;
2) It can be argued that this only postpones the problem since coal will also run out some time - well yes, but that applies to everything in the world, doesn't it?
Anyway, even if those issues remain vaild for worrying about oil, what IS sheer rubbish is the panic about "oil running out", at least for any foreseeable future. Viable solutions already exist. And everyone in the field knows that.
Last edited by Expat; 02-16-2008 at 09:44 AM.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/7248201.stm
It is the 21st century, apparently...
Beijing athletes allowed to blog
Blogging will be allowed, but there will be restrictions
The International Olympic Committee is for the first time permitting athletes to write blogs.
The IOC has set out guidelines for blogging at the Beijing Games to ensure copyright agreements are not infringed.
They include bans on posting any audio or visual material of action from the games themselves.
The move follows the increasing use of unofficial blogs by athletes in previous Games, including Athens in 2004 and the Turin Winter Games.
"It is required that, when accredited persons at the games post any Olympic content, it be confined solely to their own personal Olympic-related experience," said an IOC statement.
'Personal expression'
Posting confidential information about other people is also outlawed.
"The IOC considers blogging... as a legitimate form of personal expression and not a form of journalism," the Olympic authority said.
"Blogs should be dignified and in good taste."
The IOC guidelines follow concern that the games could become highly politicised, with China's human rights record, its treatment of dissidents and links with Sudan becoming major issues.
Some national Olympic committees in Europe found themselves at the centre of a row after being accused of trying to prevent athletes from speaking out on issues such as Darfur.
Posts I wrote in the past contain less nuance.
If you're in this forum to learn something, be careful. Lots of misplaced toxicity.
~an extraverted consciousness is unable to believe in invisible forces.
~a certain mysterious power that may prove terribly fascinating to the extraverted man, for it touches his unconscious.
i was referring to the quote that was posted by her. that mentality, represented in that quote, which is blatantly racist and ignorantly pro-israel, is far too prevalent back home.
THE BEARD HEARD HIS MOVEMENT AND MADE AN ATTACK RUN BUT DID NOT ACTUALLY ATTACK HIM
viva palestina
.
I don't think oil will run out anytime soon, and yes it's because of the coal, but as I understand that's fairly expensive, which means that we'll pay even more for oil and things that use oil (including food.) And man-oh-man are grocery prices high even now. So we'll be able to drive but we'll all be too poor to go anywhere.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
It's not more expensive than oil at present rates, on the contrary.I don't think oil will run out anytime soon, and yes it's because of the coal, but as I understand that's fairly expensive, which means that we'll pay even more for oil and things that use oil (including food.) And man-oh-man are grocery prices high even now. So we'll be able to drive but we'll all be too poor to go anywhere.
I've read otherwise, but I don't know if the source was biased and I'm not an expert.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
A more pressing problem, but perhaps less publicised, is our dwindling rare and heavy metals which are essential in just about all modern technology from lcd screens to mobile phones to computers. Even aluminium is finite. I do not have the exact figures but at present rate of consumption the UN estimates most of these metals will be 'gone' in the next twenty years.
More specifically as to what I read - I was looking for the article but I don't remember just where it was (but I think it was from some environmental source, which is why I thought it might be biased). I don't remember the cost numbers exactly.
OK so the article said something like current estimates to get oil form coal are somewhere around $40/$45? dollars a barrel. Oil is around $75/$80 a barrel. So when you look at it like that, it's cheaper.
But:
1. The estimates for processing coal are influenced by people who want this to happen and therefore the estimates are low.
2. The estimates are for the cost of getting the oil from the coal, not selling the finished product, and the cost it's compared to - our current method of getting oil - is the cost that we actually buy it at. The private companies that get oil from coal and sell the oil would expect a profit. So it isn't fair to compare those two numbers.
3. The cost is based on the current cost of coal, but as there is less oil straight from the ground available, it's safe to say that the cost of coal will go up. Perhaps substantially.
4. It doesn't take into account the environmental problems, which will have a cost involved too in some way or another. (Like I said, this was from some environmental source. I thought grist but I couldn't find it so maybe it was somewhere else.)
I read it ages ago and my memory isn't great, but that's the basic argument as I best recall.
It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.-Mark Twain
You can't wake a person who is pretending to be asleep.
Yeah, she wants it.
I don't appreciate being told that my opinions are "nonsense." Besides, I think you've misinterpreted me.
My only assertion here...
...is that it's foolish of the US to keep buying energy from OPEC countries when there are alternative methods available.
However, I do still disagree that refining coal and natural gas is an acceptable solution. There are huge problems with usage of natural gas. CNGs are many times more volatile and explosive than the oil we currently use, even when refined. This causes huge potential problems extraction, transportation, storage, and usage that, should we begin to be even marginally dependent on it, would cost gobs of money to be addressed if we are to keep the same standards of safety that we do with use of petroleum.
You yourself mention the increased CO2 emissions. I won't address directly how much of a big point against its usage this is, because that's just too easy and a really long debate, but think rationally: what are environmentalists going to think of this? Our solution to the use of a resource that depletes the ozone layer is one that's even WORSE? I can't but hope you see how foolish this is. The fate of our planet and environment is perhaps the most pressing issue facing the modern world, and you're willing to ignore it for cheap energy and maintained infrastucture? Where's your Ni, Expat? Do you plan to use CNGs to fuel your plan to rebuild the ozone layer or provide ultraviolet protection to every living being on earth? Do you think people will go for that after all the increased attention that the environmental movement is getting here in America? There's going to have to be a lot more propaganda and brainwashing done by somebody if the American people are going to be convinced to use an even dirtier source of energy now, when so many infinitely cleaner and safer ones are just a step away. It's time to get out of the Dark Ages of Energy, already; the US is way too rich and advanced to make sense of plodding along like this any longer.
And yes, it will all run out eventually. But thermonuclear, geothermal, wind, and solar power will never be short in their basic needs to produce energy. You act like long-term sustainability is a moot point, but do you know how long the human race is going to exist? I think not. You could make the excuse that "the people of the future will do it when it's necessary," but admit it, that's a fucking lazy copout. How about this: if you were still a student, and you had to turn in a paper that was late, would you turn it in ASAP and get as few points off as possible, or keep dicking around until the very last minute that you would fail if you didn't pull it off and then just be glad that you got away with it? That's basically how I've lived my life up until now, and if it creates so much stress and works so poorly on such a small scale, I'm hardly up for seeing it be the attitude of the greatest superpower in the world towards sustaining our sources of energy and protecting our environment. The ice caps are melting, the weather is getting ever more and more insane; why not fucking do something about it already?
Your position is well-informed, but I think, overall, horribly naive, Expat. If nothing else, the US should remove itself from the CURRENT petroleum market mess and use coal resources to develop something sustainable. That would be probably the best currently available plan, in my view.
That's the clearest indication of valuingover
Very briefly: as I mentioned, oil is not just about energy, it's about lots of things, including plastics. There is no alternative to replacing oil - and similiar - as yet. Even things like methanol, ethanol, etc, are variations. It is perfectly possible to use ethanol - that is, simple alcohol - to replace gasoline, in fact, ordinary cars in Brazil - I mean normal cars that everyone can buy - already run on gasoline, or alcohol, or any mix of the two. It is not clear, however, whether the overall energy balance really makes sense.
The use of coal, natural gas, etc, is a feasible alternative to today's dependency on oil. It is a way to keep the world we know running. There is no alternative that can fully replace oil equally - and if someone know that there is, please tell me.
As for environmentalists, I will take them more seriously the moment they provide workable solutions - and when most of them stop being the first to whine when having to pay more to fill up their tanks.
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