Te is an important IM element

[marooned]

I've decided that is an important IM aspect/element. I have further decided that I won't ignore it any longer.

Please, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

[Suomea]

Is it that you're using Ti to justify why Te is good and not using Te at all? Have no clue....hehe

[marooned]

Allow me to rephrase!

If I decide that my the IM element that is my (supposed) PoLR is a highly important IM element and that I will simply choose to not ignore it anymore... why can't I just do that? What is preventing me?

Could I just decide I'm in love with and stop "ignoring" it?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

What sort of things have you done to try to ignore it?

[Ms. Kensington]

i knew what you meant loki.

You can choose to try to pay attention to it but it won't be like a Te leading.

[marooned]

What sort of things have you done to try to ignore it?

Nothing.

In continuance... one cannot pay attention to the internal dynamics of objects (Fe) and the external dynamics of objects (Te) at the same time... that is clearly not possible for a mere mortal. I mean it would be like looking out of and into the same window at the same time.

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<----------o | o---------->
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But why should I be more naturally attuned to one than the other? And in conscious awareness don't you have a choice what you do and do not pay attention to?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Nothing.

But you've tried ignored it in the past?

[marooned]

But you've tried ignored it in the past?

Well, no. The idea about the PoLR is you just do tend to ignore it... not because you're choosing to or trying to... You simply can't help it.

Unless you're trying to tell me that if I didn't choose to ignore it to begin with I can't possibly choose to stop ignoring it (as it obviously doesn't work that way).

[I changed my last post a bit.]

[Phaedrus]

Allow me to rephrase!

If I decide that my the IM element that is my (supposed) PoLR is a highly important IM element and that I will simply choose to not ignore it anymore... why can't I just do that? What is preventing me?

Could I just decide I'm in love with and stop "ignoring" it?

You can choose to not ignore it, but if it is your PoLR your attempts to master that element will inevitably look inferior to those who are strong in it. And your interest in it will probably fade rather quickly.

[marooned]

You can choose to not ignore it, but if it is your PoLR your attempts to master that element will inevitably look inferior to those who are strong in it. And your interest in it will probably fade rather quickly.

Why?

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Well, no. The idea about the PoLR is you just do tend to ignore it... not because you're choosing to or trying to... You simply can't help it.

Unless you're trying to tell me that if I didn't choose to ignore it to begin with I can't possibly choose to stop ignoring it (as it obviously doesn't work that way).

[I changed my last post a bit.]

I think the weakest concious function is always something we're aware of, we can't ignore it, but one of the ways we try to get round it imo is to try avoid doing things that involve using it too much.

[marooned]

I think the weakest concious function is always something we're aware of, we can't ignore it, but one of the ways we try to get round it imo is to try avoid doing things that involve using it too much.

Hmm... that sounds more like the role-function to me. The PoLR is more that we don't care about it to begin with (or don't know why we should), and flat out don't notice it (ignore it). I don't know if the PoLR is the weakest function... there have been some rather good arguments from time to time that the suggestive function is even weaker.

Oops, sorry, you said the weakest conscious function. Forget that last thing I said then.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Hmm... that sounds more like the role-function to me. The PoLR is more that we don't care about it to begin with (or don't know why we should), and flat out don't notice it (ignore it). I don't know if the PoLR is the weakest function... there have been some rather good arguments from time to time that the suggestive function is even weaker.

Oops, sorry, you said the weakest conscious function. Forget that last thing I said then.

That makes sense. We're more aware of the flaws in our role function, but also, over time we begin to realise how much we suck at our fourth function as well.

I guess then when that happens we can also become more aware that we do stuff that avoids using both of these functions too much.

[marooned]

I guess then when that happens we can also become more aware that we do stuff that avoids using both of these functions too much.

Agree.

[FDG]

You can become an INTp, but not alone, you should also change your environment.

[marooned]

You can become an INTp, but not alone, you should also change your environment.

Or I could become an ISTp.

SEI--------IEI
\--------/
\------/
Te PoLR
Fe PoLR
/------\
/--------\
ILI--------SLI

[Creepy-Cyclops]

Agree.

Over time as we begin to realise the importance of our fourth function, it can cause a little distress that we do suck at it. I think the awareness of this fourth function causes more distress than what an awareness of the third function can cause.

[Ms. Kensington]

That makes sense. We're more aware of the flaws in our role function, but also, over time we begin to realise how much we suck at our fourth function as well.

I guess then when that happens we can also become more aware that we do stuff that avoids using both of these functions too much.

very interesting, i didn't really think of it that way. I tended to think of things I do as applying or seeking HA. I thought of HA activity as what you do to get around the Polr, but I didn't think that polr activities are opposite of what you're doing (like, notice what you're doing with the HA to figure out what you're avoiding). I suppose I don't know what I'm avoiding most of the time; I think people avoid things they aren't good at but also value as well.

[aestrivex]

I've decided that is an important IM aspect/element. I have further decided that I won't ignore it any longer.

Please, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

nothing whatsoever, except that in practice you may have difficulty achieving such a goal.

[FDG]

Or I could become an ISTp.

You'd need to change the Ni too for that though.

[Joy]

They're all important.

[XoX]

I've decided that is an important IM aspect/element. I have further decided that I won't ignore it any longer.

Please, tell me what is wrong with that statement.

The problem is that people seriously dislike it if they are _required_ to use their PoLR and negatively judged based on their inability or unwilligness to use it. If their "human value" is somehow tied to their ability to use their PoLR function. If they can learn to use it on their own terms and not criticized or harshly judged about it then it can even be fun.

[mm]

I agree with XoX. I'm currently thinking, whether you can be good at it or not, that PoLR is also something where you seek to be independent from others. You want to do it all on your own. You don't interact with others very well on PoLR aspects, don't seek or even accept input from others and so the amount and quality of information/knowledge/conclusions is entirely dependent on what you can come up with on your own. I guess you can learn to appreciate input from others, but it tastes bitter and is counterintuitive.

I think this would also explain why getting a compliment on something PoLR related is particularly enjoyable. It's because you yourself on your own did something good. A PoLR critique on the other hand makes you feel ashamed, miserable and inadequate, you've missed something that appeared to be plain obvious to someone else. I guess that's why it's often difficult to admit mistakes you've made regarding PoLR. It touches the perfect image you have of yourself. And recognising that is probably a part of growing up ... Gah, yuck, *spits*, I hate this half-arsed pseudo-wisdom.

Signing off.

Oh, wait, I just realised, independence from others is not necessarily a bad thing. For those who have read "The Wisdom Of Crowds", it's a pretty important aspect for a group/crowd to make good decisions, so evolution may have hardwired it into our brain not because it made us smarter, but because it made the group smarter. ?

EDIT: Also, one of the reasons you can get along so well with your dual is because they don't judge you on your PoLR. In fact, they tend to want to train your PoLR by feeding you the right HA bits when you need them.

[Logos]

They're all important.

Except . I just hate that function.

[Expat]

Except . I just hate that function.

Do you? I don't, I think it's a very useful function -- when it recognizes its proper place under its master, .

[marooned]

Do you? I don't, I think it's a very useful function -- when it recognizes its proper place under its master, .

This made me smile.

[Logos]

Do you? I don't, I think it's a very useful function -- when it recognizes its proper place under its master, .

But the problem is that it never does. I wish someone would just dissect Ti into a million indiscernible pieces the way it tries to dissect everything else and then just throw those Ti-ny pieces to the fishes.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

But the problem is that it never does. I wish someone would just dissect Ti into a million indiscernible pieces the way it tries to dissect everything else and then just throw those Ti pieces to the fishes.

Ouch. We all have our sunglasses that we need to wear.

[Elro]

But the problem is that it never does. I wish someone would just dissect Ti into a million indiscernible pieces the way it tries to dissect everything else and then just throw those Ti-ny pieces to the fishes.

You mean the Fi-shes?

[Logos]

You mean the Fi-shes?

Thank you for the correction. Yes, throw those Ti-ny pieces to the Fi-shes.

[force my hand]

Allow me to rephrase!

If I decide that my the IM element that is my (supposed) PoLR is a highly important IM element and that I will simply choose to not ignore it anymore... why can't I just do that? What is preventing me?

Could I just decide I'm in love with and stop "ignoring" it?

The only thing that would be stopping you is an irrational adherence to an as-yet unverified (and potentially-unfalsifiable?) model in favour of making a conscious choice to exercise your thoughts and attitudes to achieve a better end through simple practice.

...though given that this is a Socionics forum, that's probably not going to be the most appreciated advice.

[marooned]

The only thing that would be stopping you is an irrational adherence to an as-yet unverified (and potentially-unfalsifiable?) model in favour of making a conscious choice to exercise your thoughts and attitudes to achieve a better end through simple practice.

...though given that this is a Socionics forum, that's probably not going to be the most appreciated advice.

beyond the walls of model A...

[force my hand]

beyond the walls of model A...

Socionics is interesting, and can be extremely accurate (in the opinion of someone I recently typed as ESE who mentioned that the description made them blush and feel like they were 'naked'), but you gotta be reasonable.

[marooned]

Socionics is interesting, and can be extremely accurate (in the opinion of someone I recently typed as ESE who mentioned that the description made them blush and feel like they were 'naked'), but you gotta be reasonable.

I want to say something in response to this, but I simply do not know what to say.