ISTp-ENFp duality and implicit perception of emotional needs

[Kim]

Originally Posted by Slacker
Have you ever seen the Neil Simon play "Plaza Suite"? In the third part of that, there's this bride freaking out worried about getting married who locks herself in the bathroom. And her parents are freaking out about her being locked in the bathroom while the guests are arriving. This goes on for ages, with her parents getting more and more upset and getting nowhere with her. So finally, the groom comes up, and they begrudgingly tell him what the problem is - that she's anxious and crying, and she's locked herself in the bathroom and won't come out. He shows no emotion, walks over to the bathroom door, pounds on it and says "cool it". And that's all she needed - she comes out of the bathroom ready to get married. The anxiety of her parents wasn't helping her anxiety. She needed someone without all that extra emotion to relax her.

That is the best thing about ISTps.

Absolutely. Nothing like an entirely calm "chill out babe" to snap me out of neurotic hysteria.

Edit: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MuBwxePS-s0

<3

@Park

[Park]

@Park

What?

[Kim]

What?

How to deal with unbearable IEEs. The wisdom that is this forum.

[Park]

I want an SLI bride.

[mikemex]

An example of IEE-SLI duality:

Really? If I were to bet I'd say both are IEE but since Drew is a girl she's far less constrained emotionally.

[Kim]

I want an SLI bride.

Snap out of it.

[Galen]

Okay so I've been living with two SLIs for the past few months SO I KNOW WHAT TRUE DUALITY IS LIKE



With one of them (Si-SLI 9w8 sx/sp???), I find myself in a constant struggle trying to inject some sort of emotional maturity. He tends to put on a front where he becomes oblivious to all problems around him, and passes them off by laughing and making funny noises and speaking in funny accents. He types as ENFP, but he seems rather oblivious to other people's emotional reactions and perspectives, and he rarely ever expresses his own deeper sentiments unless pushed to do so by myself. We actually used to be best friends: there was a rather engaging boyish charm to him that I found easy to connect with. But, living with people and getting to know more about how they operate tends to change relationships, and we've since dissolved into nothing more than roommates at this point.

The other (Te-SLI 6w7 sp/sx) is much more emotionally grounded than the other and ultimately easier to connect with. He says he likes to talk to people, which can be refreshing since I don't often initiate conversations with many. He's a bit more worldly experienced and tends to have interesting things to talk about and share with others, and I find myself very receptive to it. He's notably dryer in terms of overall affect than the other guy, but he still knows how to have fun and be a stupid goof when he feels like it (apparently I'm not particularly fond of the "stupid goof" side of people, guess I'm fucked). Definitely more emotionally and intellectually mature than the other one as well, we get on rather well.

[Cyrano]

Galen, Is it rare to find two SLIs? How did you types them as SLI? A SLI that likes to talk to people, and another who makes funny noises and speaks in funny accents? Not sure that's SLI behavior. What did you see?

[consentingadult]

As someone reminded me of this post by putting a 'like' on it, I think I can now, after ten years, say something more significant about the matter.

As I explained in the first post, SLIs do not project unspoken and unwanted expectations on an IEE. Conventional Socionics wisdom explain this as IEEs having a need to keep their freedom, happy-go-lucky as they are, or so they claim. But this is not the case. The most important aspect of SLIs not projecting expectations on IEEs, is that this more or less frees IEEs from emotional 'contamination'. In contact with SLIs, IEEs reach a state of emotional neutrality (largely in terms of Fe) which causes the storms in their brains fade away, figuratively speaking of course. They are, in fact, 'contaminated' with Si, their dual seeking function. And this in turn is a precondition for becoming truly productive and creative and do something good with their lives. Si is a precondition for IEEs becoming their true and best selves.Without Si in their lives, IEEs are just wandering in the desert:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html

Likewise, Ne is a precondition for SLIs and SEIs to becoming their true and best selves.

[Hope]

This.^

Thats exactly how it works in my case. I think in interpersonal relations I never project or push others to anything and absolutely I dont want others to fulfill my expectations because I don't have any (more than basic respect). I take things as they come. I'm a very easy going and accepting person, in the same sense I don't accept a different treatment for myself. So I think that actually the freedom goes also in this sense, IEEs dont feel like they have to fulfill expectations so they feel comfortable and at ease, SLI resist to fulfill expectations for no good reason even if they are told. Both enjoy having certain level of freedom in their relations.

[at sirac son of sirac]

As someone reminded me of this post by putting a 'like' on it, I think I can now, after ten years, say something more significant about the matter.

As I explained in the first post, SLIs do not project unspoken and unwanted expectations on an IEE. Conventional Socionics wisdom explain this as IEEs having a need to keep their freedom, happy-go-lucky as they are, or so they claim. But this is not the case. The most important aspect of SLIs not projecting expectations on IEEs, is that this more or less frees IEEs from emotional 'contamination'. In contact with SLIs, IEEs reach a state of emotional neutrality (largely in terms of Fe) which causes the storms in their brains fade away, figuratively speaking of course. They are, in fact, 'contaminated' with Si, their dual seeking function. And this in turn is a precondition for becoming truly productive and creative and do something good with their lives. Si is a precondition for IEEs becoming their true and best selves.Without Si in their lives, IEEs are just wandering in the desert:

http://mavericksocionics.blogspot.nl...stive-and.html

Likewise, Ne is a precondition for SLIs and SEIs to becoming their true and best selves.

I don't think it's quite the case, if socionics relations are true, then it's my experience that SLIs don't have expectations of IEEs because the IEE uses their creative function - Fi in such a way that the SLI doesn't have a need for expectation.

They have enough freedom to come and go as they please whilst being aware the relationship is solid.

A lot of this comes down to situations, an SLI-IEE who are 20 will have a lot less expectation than a couple who are say, possibly late 30s, as expectation may be the norm - money to pay the bills, a family to have, if not started yet.

I'm not convinced enough of ITRs being true. Sure, my best relations appear to have been with delta NFs from what I can tell, but i've seen many relations and not just relations, but people getting on who should not get on, according to the theory.

But then, this is a socionics forum, so I am aware i'm on the fringes so to speak, with my observations not being in line with others on here - or at least the expectations of observations.

[Bertrand]

I feel like its the sort of thing you absolutely cannot put in a box because as soon as you tell these types what it should look like they'll find a way to make it work in exactly some other way (if they're so inclined) [1]. a better way to look at is theyre not playing the same game as anyone else, so they can look like anything whereas the underlying reality is something as dual irrationals is something they uniquely perceive (particularly along Ne Si lines, i.e.: the outer situation as they understand it, combined with Fi) this makes their outward manifestation, their words, the way they look, the way they describe things, totally idiosyncratic. at the end of the day though its precisely that dynamic that "speaks" to them, its like their unique form of dogwhistling to one another. if you told these types "oh you don't have expectations" that's not quite right, its true in some sense, but its more that the expectations sort of explode what we traditionally think of as "expectations in a relationship", but they are nevertheless there in some other sense. this is the dyad, I think, that could "play" at any sort of dynamic, one with tons of "expectations" or none at all, because they operate on a level where those labels and signs and concepts even are just a "thin ethical game." their mutual inner outer understanding (FiNe) is privately shared and outward they care not for (Fe Ti polrs)

[1] this could lead to "alternative" arrangements, or even hyper conservative forms of relating. the point is they choose

[Rebelondeck]

I doubt that there's implicit perception of emotional needs among duals because most needs are a result of environment, experience and upbringing. Some types are better at reading emotional needs like perhaps IEEs. Duals can fill in some of gaps in each other's information processing but individual needs have to be discovered by the other partner. Duals cannot totally provide for each other's emotional needs although they will likely come to understand them intimately. I find that duals tend to give each other elbow room so that each partner can deal with their own needs - often providing a safe base from which to do this.

a.k.a. I/O

[wasp]

@Rebelondeck I think that's missing the point of OP's observations tho

it's easy to argue that every type can do anything and nothing is type related (which isn't exactly what you're doing here, I know, but it feels similar)

IEEs have the most useful tools for psychoanalysis. Ne-Fi is literally about entering the heads of other people, it's about shifting perspectives, it's about analyzing intentions, it's about identifying hidden insecurities and attachments, especially in the case of IEE-Ne, anyway I think it was bertrand who said that IEEs are notorious for managing fears in other people, so if they have an average capacity for empathy then it means that they're usually worrying excessively about how their words/actions are being perceived by the outside world, which inhibits their natural expression because they're not thinking from intrinsic motivation anymore, so instead it morphs into high social neuroticism ("how can I say/do [x] without accidentally hurting [y]?") especially IEEs who have formed friendships where they sincerely want to do best by their friends, but it's extremely easy to take advantage of them in those circumstances because they'll forgive a lot from people they've formed attachments with, if only because they're social creatures by nature, then over time it becomes near impossible for them to relax without feeling like they gotta manage everybody in their environment i.e. secondhand neuroticism

that doesn't mean IEE is the pinnacle of morality because sometimes the reverse happens where they think "how can I say/do [x] to get a reaction from [y]?" because Ne is still their lead function - even if it's lighthearted usage, it still has the potential to get under people's skin, if taken to an unreasonable degree - BUT true evil is hard to come by, so IEEs usually fall into the position of inadvertently helping out their friends (and strangers alike) at the direct expense of themselves, in socionics terms that's like forcing them to use their creative instead of their leading function, which turns "helping people" into a chore instead of a fulfilling pastime, but SLIs are literally self-sufficient by nature, which doesn't mean that they don't need some "psychoanalysis" from time to time, even if they're some of the most low-maintenance people I've ever met, it just means that they won't expect it from IEEs in the same way that other types might, which ironically enough makes IEEs want to help them even more, but this time it's enjoyable for them because it's a choice

therefore SLIs don't project their emotional needs onto IEEs because they know how to take care of themselves, that's literally the foundation of their calmness, so instead of IEEs absorbing secondhand neuroticism, they end up absorbing secondhand calmness, and so they can finally act naturally

[Rebelondeck]

@Rebelondeck I think that's missing the point of OP's observations tho

it's easy to argue that every type can do anything and nothing is type related (which isn't exactly what you're doing here, I know, but it feels similar)..........

I do think that people are born blank slates and type determines how one goes about filling the slate; type determines the perspectives and processing that will likely be taken toward all information and experiences so in that way, type influences everything. However, a type raised in a middleclass home in a western society will likely have much different emotional needs than an identical type raised in a squalid, crime-ridden refugee camp. It is very difficult to separate baggage from type and many on this site seem to have trouble doing that........

a.k.a. I/O

[Kernel]

That does seem to describe how my IEE friend is around her duals. She comes up with zany little comments all the time and they just don't blink, and roll with whatever she says. They also don't make a big deal out of it, like call attention to it being a joke, but rather 'accept' the reality of it and play it deadpan. Umm, maybe I'm explaining this badly. I'll try to give an example.

It happens frequently too. Another time we were at lunch with a(nother) SLI and SEI. The IEE made some comment about something someone told her about monkey brains, and the practices people engage in while eating it. I immediately chimed in about seeing monkey brains in the grocery store, and then the SLI jumped in with this elaborate explanation of a family practice of his that basically validated the seemingly outlandish original statement of the IEE. The words he was saying were clearly taking the piss, but he said it completely deadpan and very convincingly, and all three of us were presenting it as if we were having a serious discussion and all the mirth was very much kept below the surface, though easy to recognise in each other. The SEI was completely lost and had no idea what we were all on about.

I've never seen a SLI sort of cut my IEE friend off because they are uninterested in what she's saying. I mean, yeah, she is a very interesting lady. But more than that, they do always seem genuinely interested - in person. And SLIs react to her very differently to the way they react to me, and to others as far as I know. They seem...lit up and brought out of their brusque exterior with her, playful and willing to joke.

I think it's cute. Really really cute.

This is a great observation. It sounds very much like how me and SLI interact. They really seem to like that wackiness. I remember once, me, ESI, SLI were talking about how the moon was red that day, then I came up with a very strange/stupid reason for the moon being that color, the ESI was like WTF but SLI laughed (in a way saying he is not judging you) then continued talking about it.

Sometimes, I will try to explain something, but I don't find the right words, so I keep saying very vague words here and there, others usually stop listening to me but SLI always pick up something from what i was saying and we continue talking without me feeling uncomfortable. It's not with words only, from time to time, I unconsciously do some weird movements, then I turn and find SLI laughing so hard somewhere, like once, it was very cold so I started (unconsciously) jumping in my place and I thought no one was watching but SLI was there all along and he started laughing, then he told me that next time I should wear warmer clothes.

It's very great and refreshing to have someone around who doesn't judge you for being your stupid self haha.

[aixelsyd]

Looks like I'm not the only one who had no idea an SLI was interested. I met my wife via an online dating site and she was the first to message me. We mostly talked about our respective work and what have you. She proposed a meet up after a few weeks. I reluctantly went (was over dating at that point but had no real reason to say "no" when she seemed decent granted not my type). I was surprised to find her attractive and familiar from the get-go. She wasn't at all what I expected. I expected a rather feminine woman but her hair was cropped shorter and her mannerisms matched that of two other women I had had crushes on in the past whose types eluded me. Had her pegged as SLI from the get-go, though I was inclined to go for ILIs, at the time, and finding much disappointment in the process.

In any case, it was the first date that I truly had a good time: at a bar right off the beach and less than five miles from where I lived, then. Her own apartment was right around the corner. We simply hung out until sunset. She had explained she had forgotten that she agreed to meet me and so threw an outfit on last minute. I thought nothing of it.

We texted sporadically for the next couple of months. I actually had no inkling that she liked me liked me, really. Even after the second time I met up with her, months later, where she was rather drunk and started kissing me only to pass out shortly after, I didn't think there was anything there, rationalizing it that she was merely drunk and desperate. After all, I was still not over another girl I was talking with but no longer. I told her that after the fact. She didn't mind.

It wasn't until after a few weeks of hanging out (her feeding my malnourished ass) that I had started falling for her that I learned the truth. Even from the first time we met, she revealed she was thinking of fucking me right then and there at the bar. Hell, even before that, I'd discover many months later when we started talking about marriage, that she knew I was the one. Here I thought we were just friends when she was already planning on marrying me. And here we are.

Type related? Maybe.

[Bethanyclaire]

I doubt that there's implicit perception of emotional needs among duals because most needs are a result of environment, experience and upbringing. Some types are better at reading emotional needs like perhaps IEEs. Duals can fill in some of gaps in each other's information processing but individual needs have to be discovered by the other partner. Duals cannot totally provide for each other's emotional needs although they will likely come to understand them intimately. I find that duals tend to give each other elbow room so that each partner can deal with their own needs - often providing a safe base from which to do this.

a.k.a. I/O

@Lady Leviathan

Could be helpful to read..