Gamma Quadra

[Hitta]

Gamma thinkers use +Ti/-Te and -Ne/+Ne as their dominate functions. Gamma feelers use -Fi/+Fe and +Se/-Si as their dominate functions. Gamma thinkers are usually attached to the concepts of code and loyalty. Gamma thinkers also usually have a love for order and rules. This often leads Gamma thinkers to enter the military. Gamma thinkers tend to follow orders from superior officers or bosses very well. Many Gamma thinkers usually end up with tons of metals and awards for their strong dedication to serving. Gamma thinkers are often hired by companies for their predication skills(-Ne/+Ni). They are easily able to see trends in things and where the trends will lead. Gamma thinkers usually have a compulsive need to own property or to own things of monetary value. Gamma thinkers love to take calculated risks. The +Ti/-Te +Ni/-Ne hybrid often helps Gamma thinkers to predict the market and to take huge risks that have big payoffs. Because of Gammas risk taking abilities, there are usually very few middle class Gamma thinkers. As soon as Gamma thinkers have money, they are thinking of ways to spend it to make more money. Sometimes this pays off, others times it doesn't(though it pays off more time than not because of Gammas predication skills). One misconception about Gamma thinkers is that they are natural leaders. This is simply not true. Gamma thinkers are usually better at taking orders and working for big corporations. They tend to make the places they work for big sums of cash. Gamma thinkers are usually very polite and courteous people.

Gammas overall are not very forgiving people. They believe strongly in their moral and societal values. Usually when someone breaks these rules, they are quick to drop the hammer on them. Both Gamma feelers and thinkers are very defensive. Gamma feelers usually are the Guardians of the world. They will not let anything happen to their loved ones. They are usually extremely protective. They are usually extremely quick to disowning someone for disobeying societal and moral standards. Overall Gamma feelers are very playful as long as they do not find something to dislike about the opposing person. Gamma feelers usually pay close attention to how people word sentence or how they are approached. They usually are waiting to be insulted so that they can defend themselves. When they believe that the person has said something to their disliking, they usually make very characteristic facial expressions to show their dissatisfaction(there jawline usually becomes very rigid and their eyes have a very fierce glow about them). Gamma overall tend to work in very slow paces. This does not change with the Gamma feelers. When cleaning or cooking they usually take their time. They usually don't cook or clean often, but when they do they do an extremely thorough job. Gamma feelers usually do not like to stand out, and usually have a strong distaste for people that do. They believe in loyalty to their superiors.

Gamma ideology: Loyalty

[FDG]

When you copypaste what mainstream socionics says about the types, you are correct; however, whenever you add something of your own invention...everything falls apart.

[Hitta]

When you copypaste what mainstream socionics says about the types, you are correct; however, whenever you add something of your own invention...everything falls apart.

thats a beautiful theory(sarcasm)

[FDG]

thats a beautiful theory(sarcasm)

Not really a theory.

[Hitta]

of course its a theory, and i will say, my descriptions match mainstream socionics descriptions. I don't really care about mainstream though.

[strrrng]

Many Gamma thinkers usually end up with tons of metals and awards for their strong dedication to serving.

how about you just tell us how they wipe their ass?

[Phaedrus]

When you copypaste what mainstream socionics says about the types, you are correct; however, whenever you add something of your own invention...everything falls apart.

Indeed, so it seems to be.

Some of the things you say about Gamma are very true, Hitta, but the main problem is that not all of the general traits that you (or someone else) attritube to Gamma are true, and they should not be attributed to Gamma as a group. Here are some examples:

Gamma thinkers are usually attached to the concepts of code and loyalty.

Very true of LIEs and ESIs, not extremely typical of ILIs and SEEs.

Gamma thinkers tend to follow orders from superior officers or bosses very well.

Very true of ESIs. Totally misleading if attributed to ILIs.

Many Gamma thinkers usually end up with tons of metals and awards for their strong dedication to serving.

Totally incorrect to say about ILIs.

Gamma thinkers usually have a compulsive need to own property or to own things of monetary value.

Not at all true of ILIs, perhaps a correct description of the other Gammas.

Gammas overall are not very forgiving people.

True of LIEs and ESIs, very doubtful if true of SEEs, totally misleading to say about ILIs.

Gamma feelers usually are the Guardians of the world.

In what sense? ESIs are of course clearly Guardians of the world, but SEEs are not Guardians in the same sense. If they are that in another sense, that is also true of for example ESEs, LSEs, and LSIs, so why attribute such a trait to Gamma feelers?

Overall Gamma feelers are very playful as long as they do not find something to dislike about the opposing person.

It is totally misleading to use the word "playful" when describing ESIs, even if they can be playful on some very rare occasions.

[FDG]

True of LIEs and ESIs

On the top of my head, I cannot think of any theoretical reason on why it would be so, nor I can back it up very well with real life information. I think being unforgiving is generally an unhealthy trait that is shown by unhealthy types of every kind (and no, not in a particularly higher frequency among LIEs and ESIs over SEEs and ILIs).

It is totally misleading to use the word "playful" when describing ESIs, even if they can be playful on some very rare occasions.

That's not a type trait either. Some ESIs are playful some others are very serious, indeed there are also rather serious LIEs and also playful ones, the dimensions touched seem to be neuroticism (not type related) and extraversion, thus an ESI that is introverted but around the middle of the distribution on the E-I axis and is on the left tail on the neuroticism distribution can be playful, the opposite being true for an ESI which is on the right tail of the neuroticism distribution and on the leftmost part of the I-E distribution.

[Phaedrus]

On the top of my head, I cannot think of any theoretical reason on why it would be so, nor I can back it up very well with real life information. I think being unforgiving is generally an unhealthy trait that is shown by unhealthy types of every kind (and no, not in a particularly higher frequency among LIEs and ESIs over SEEs and ILIs).

I'm not sure how to explain it theoretically, but I have seen "the unforgiving attitude" in real life LIEs and ESIs to a greater extent than many other types. They both tend to talk and behave from such a (moral) perspective. At least the ESI is also described that way in the type descriptions.

Some ESIs are playful some others are very serious

I would never describe ESIs as playful. All of them are more serious than playful -- that's how they are described in the type descriptions, and that's how every real life example I have met has been. If we are going to use the word "playful" in relation to some type(s) it should not be in relation to to ESI, because then that word looses its meaning.

[FDG]

I've yet to meet a playful ESI male, I will agree with that. I've met some playful ESI females (Fi, because that's the empowering function - no such a thing as a playful Se-ESI). I've even met playful and stereotypically "funny" LSIs that were definitely LSIs.

Now, though, I agree with you that if we want to create a "ranking" of playful types, then we will never place the average ESI at the top, if that is what you mean.

[Phaedrus]

Now, though, I agree with you that if we want to create a "ranking" of playful types, then we will never place the average ESI at the top, if that is what you mean.

Yes, I would place the ESI at the bottom half.

[Hitta]

For starters the Russian descriptions all explain the personality types like I have described them(review filatova description and a couple of others, just check out socionics.org)

The problem that yall have that I do not understand in the least bit is the fact that you keep saying that LIEs are loyal but ILIs are not. To me this does not make sense in the least bit. How is it that an LIE can be one way but an ILI can be another if they are using the same functions? This is simply never ever ever going to be the case, and I would advise yall to analytically understand things instead of just assuming that a type is a certain way. What you are doing is both illogical and misinformed.

[Phaedrus]

The problem that yall have that I do not understand in the least bit is the fact that you keep saying that LIEs are loyal but ILIs are not. To me this does not make sense in the least bit.

I am not saying that ILIs cannot be loyal, but they are not loyal in the same sense and for the same reasons as, for example, ESIs. ILIs often have rebellious tendencies, and they can have difficulty following orders if they don't find them rational. They don't see loyalty to persons as an end in itself. Principles are generally more important than persons, especially the principle that you should seek the objective truth. ILIs are knowledge seekers, and loyalty can sometimes conflict with the objective truth, in which case the ILI sees the truth as more important than to be loyal. He is loyal to his principle, though.

How is it that an LIE can be one way but an ILI can be another if they are using the same functions? This is simply never ever ever going to be the case, and I would advise yall to analytically understand things instead of just assuming that a type is a certain way. What you are doing is both illogical and misinformed.

You are wrong about that. You are simply assuming things to be true without checking if they correspond with reality. If you study the type descriptions and real life examples of the types, you will find that there are many clear differences between LIEs and ILIs. The live in different life rhythms, and that difference reflects itself in different attitudes towards life in general.

The loyalty seen in LIEs and ESIs is, to at least some extent, a manifestation of their rationality. They are both rational types, whereas the ILI is an irrational/perceiving type. The general differences between J and P types are very important, and they are reflected in their views on society and politics as well in different attitudes towards work and discipline, to name a few things.

ILIs are "terrible partisans. They slip off and do not confess", as some socionist put it. They don't want to subordinate themselves to groups. The same thing is misleading if said about LIEs, and false if said about ESIs.

[Hitta]

I am not saying that ILIs cannot be loyal, but they are not loyal in the same sense and for the same reasons as, for example, ESIs. ILIs often have rebellious tendencies, and they can have difficulty following orders if they don't find them rational. They don't see loyalty to persons as an end in itself. Principles are generally more important than persons, especially the principle that you should seek the objective truth. ILIs are knowledge seekers, and loyalty can sometimes conflict with the objective truth, in which case the ILI sees the truth as more important than to be loyal. He is loyal to his principle, though.


You are wrong about that. You are simply assuming things to be true without checking if they correspond with reality. If you study the type descriptions and real life examples of the types, you will find that there are many clear differences between LIEs and ILIs. The live in different life rhythms, and that difference reflects itself in different attitudes towards life in general.

The loyalty seen in LIEs and ESIs is, to at least some extent, a manifestation of their rationality. They are both rational types, whereas the ILI is an irrational/perceiving type. The general differences between J and P types are very important, and they are reflected in their views on society and politics as well in different attitudes towards work and discipline, to name a few things.

ILIs are "terrible partisans. They slip off and do not confess", as some socionist put it. They don't want to subordinate themselves to groups. The same thing is misleading if said about LIEs, and false if said about ESIs.

Lol, you aren't ILI. ILIs aren't rebellious, that would be LIIs.

[Phaedrus]

Lol, you aren't ILI. ILIs aren't rebellious, that would be LIIs.

Nope. Even though both can be rebellious. You seem to understand some aspects of the types, as you make some correct statements about them. But since you admit that you only repeat what you have found written on them, one has to start to wonder if you really have compared what you have read with reality. It seems as you haven't.

You can't name one single clear real life example of an ILI, can you? I seriously doubt that you can. If you insist on keep silent on that, I take that as a proof that you don't know how to spot ILIs in real life.

I have recently mentioned Schopenhauer as a rather obvious example of an ILI. If you have a correct understanding of the types, you must agree with that typing. And now I want you to name another example of an ILI yourself. Do it now, please.

[n00bula]

I found the following from wikisocion (ILI description):

Moreover, ILIs are confident in following their own personal ethics, code of honor and principles, not seeing the need to make compromises regarding how they are presented to others.

Perhaps a sign of rebellion?

or am I wrong?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Gamma overall tend to work in very slow paces. This does not change with the Gamma feelers. When cleaning or cooking they usually take their time. They usually don't cook or clean often, but when they do they do an extremely thorough job.

I agreed with some things, but that part is BS. Gammas on a whole appreciate effort more than the desired result. They get bitter about people like me, that don't put much work in, but when we do- we tend to kick ass and take names. They don't think we deserve our power. They cook and clean a lot, and are on their toes a lot.

mixed with is an interesting combo to say the least.

[Warlord]

ILIs aren't rebellious, that would be LIIs.

lol Didn't you just say that you have read the russian descriptions, maybe you should read them again.

Just one example:
Logical version in the contact frequently manifests activity, energetic nature. It is sometimes even emphasized by rough and vulgar. = rebellious, to most of people.

[Phaedrus]

Perhaps a sign of rebellion?

or am I wrong?

You are right.

[Joy]

Gamma thinkers are usually attached to the concepts of code and loyalty.

Code, no. Loyalty, yes.

Gamma thinkers also usually have a love for order and rules.

Order is good when it makes something more effective and efficient. Rules? They're necessary to some extent, but I would not say that Gammas "love" rules. They're more likely to do what they feel is right than to simply follow the rules. And they think that other people should make their own decisions about right and wrong as well, not simply follow rules. For this reason, any type of "rule" put in place from Gamma is more so a matter of procedure for the purpose of making things run smoothly. Rules are at best a necessary evil.

This often leads Gamma thinkers to enter the military.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

Gamma thinkers tend to follow orders from superior officers or bosses very well.

Depends on the situation. Different people may have different roles within a group (including leader), but this is only for the purpose of effectively and efficiently completing an objective. Gammas are extremely unlikely to just simply "follow orders" due only to the fact that they're from a "superior" though. How on earth would we stand up to Beta if such were the case? We'd be Beta's little bitches.

Many Gamma thinkers usually end up with tons of metals and awards for their strong dedication to serving.

This idea is rather foreign to me. It sounds more like something Beta would be concerned about than Gamma (most of the description so far has, actually). Keep in mind that Gamma contains SEE's (the type most resistant to subjugation under a hierarchy's system of rules) and LIE's (who are often Enneagram 8's and have a Se Hidden Agenda).

Gamma thinkers are often hired by companies for their predication skills(-Ne/+Ni).

Should we add that to our resumes?

They are easily able to see trends in things and where the trends will lead.

yep

Gamma thinkers usually have a compulsive need to own property or to own things of monetary value.

It's about freedom, not materialism.

Gamma thinkers love to take calculated risks.

Yep. Much more so LIE's than ILI's.

Gamma thinkers to predict the market and to take huge risks that have big payoffs. Because of Gammas risk taking abilities, there are usually very few middle class Gamma thinkers. As soon as Gamma thinkers have money, they are thinking of ways to spend it to make more money. Sometimes this pays off, others times it doesn't(though it pays off more time than not because of Gammas predication skills). One misconception about Gamma thinkers is that they are natural leaders. This is simply not true.

Yep.

Gamma thinkers are usually better at taking orders and working for big corporations.

NO NO NO NO NO NO NO

There's a reason LIE is called the Enterpriser, and it's not because LIE's are content to work for someone else their whole lives, never getting out of the rat race. Financial independence is of tremendous importance to LIE's, and it is impossible to be financially independent while you're dependent on a job.

They tend to make the places they work for big sums of cash. Gamma thinkers are usually very polite and courteous people.

Sure? Complaints that we're too blunt are common though (this also applies to Gamma SF's).

Gammas overall are not very forgiving people.

SEE's are probably too forgiving. With ESI's, it depends on who did something wrong, what they did, and how they acted afterwards. ILI's are probably too forgiving as well, and with LIE's it can go either way.

They believe strongly in their moral... values

Yes.

societal values.

No.

Usually when someone breaks these rules, they are quick to drop the hammer on them.

This often applies to ESI's, but not so much to other Gamma types.

Both Gamma feelers and thinkers are very defensive.

Everyone can be defensive about something. Over defensiveness, however, is a sign of insecurity and is not type related.

Gamma feelers usually are the Guardians of the world.

The world? That sounds more like a Delta NF thing. Gammas are more concerned with their families and friends.

They will not let anything happen to their loved ones.

Yes.

They are usually extremely protective.

Well, they value productivity in any case.

They are usually extremely quick to disowning someone...

Depends. See what I said earlier about forgiveness.

for disobeying societal and moral standards.

Ugh I'm beginning to feel a need to start a thread about this "societal" shit.

Overall Gamma feelers are very playful as long as they do not find something to dislike about the opposing person. Gamma feelers usually pay close attention to how people word sentence or how they are approached.

Sure?

They usually are waiting to be insulted so that they can defend themselves.

See what I said above about insecurity.

When they believe that the person has said something to their disliking, they usually make very characteristic facial expressions to show their dissatisfaction(there jawline usually becomes very rigid and their eyes have a very fierce glow about them). Gamma overall tend to work in very slow paces. This does not change with the Gamma feelers. When cleaning or cooking they usually take their time.

I don't know.

They usually don't cook or clean often, but when they do they do an extremely thorough job.

This is true of me, but

Gamma feelers usually do not like to stand out

I dunno, SEE's generally seem not to mind drawing attention to themselves.

and usually have a strong distaste for people that do.

Depends what you mean by "stand out". How someone stands out is important to whether they're annoying or not.

They believe in loyalty to their superiors.

No.

They believe in loyalty to their loved ones.

Gamma ideology: Loyalty

Loyalty and freedom (particularly financial freedom).

[Joy]

I've yet to meet a playful ESI male, I will agree with that. I've met some playful ESI females (Fi, because that's the empowering function - no such a thing as a playful Se-ESI). I've even met playful and stereotypically "funny" LSIs that were definitely LSIs.

Now, though, I agree with you that if we want to create a "ranking" of playful types, then we will never place the average ESI at the top, if that is what you mean.

Every ESI that I have ever been close to has been extremely playful. People who they're not close to though would never guess that they are.

[FDG]

Every ESI that I have ever been close to has been extremely playful. People who they're not close to though would never guess that they are.

We agree on that then. Probably not "every" (I've met male ISFjs that were not playful even when close). In any case, probably there are types that are playful both when close and when not close, and phaedrus was thinking about them when making a list. Maybe the fact that he lives in a scandinavian country plays a part, too.

[Joy]

How so?

[Phaedrus]

Maybe the fact that he lives in a scandinavian country plays a part, too.

Maybe, I don't know. But we surely have many ISFjs here. It might be one of the most common types in my country. And I know them quite well -- I have for example lived with a female of that species for many years now. They can of course be playful in the right circumstances, but they are definitely seen as more serious than the average person in most situations. That's why I think the word "playful" should not be used in ESI type descriptions of any kind.

[FDG]

They get bitter about people like me, that don't put much work in, but when we do- we tend to kick ass and take names.

Uhm? If the result is good, it doesn't matter how much work you have put into it (and the opposite is true too).

Maybe, I don't know. But we surely have many ISFjs here. It might be one of the most common types in my country. And I know them quite well -- I have for example lived with a female of that species for many years now. They can of course be playful in the right circumstances, but they are definitely seen as more serious than the average person in most situations. That's why I think the word "playful" should not be used in ESI type descriptions of any kind.

Well, I'm not disagreeing, because I have seen a lot of variation among them. Some are very serious, some others are more playful, etc