It's currently neck and neck with the Beta team currently kicking the Delta's asses in number of posts. It's a narrow margin, but its enough to win!
Barack Obama 2008!
Super Tuesday
It's currently neck and neck with the Beta team currently kicking the Delta's asses in number of posts. It's a narrow margin, but its enough to win!
Barack Obama 2008!
Lefty
ENFJ
"I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.
not intending to patronize the maker of this thread in any way, but this demands further explanation.Originally Posted by glamourama
I think Obama can "fight" and hold his ground... or recognizes the importance of that. It's not his strong suit, but I think he can "rise to the challenge" so to speak. No one is perfect... it's whether they can effectively manage their weak areas that is more important to me.
Clinton's weakness seems to be that she tends to be rather inflexible and narrow. I doubt her ability to see past her own convictions.
Then there's McCain who I perceive as borderline fanatical... wanting to turn things into some epic battle between "good" and "evil." Ugh. Not what we need.
i vehemently disagree with every word of this argument. that hillary clinton is a typical, self-serving politician is a bad thing, not a good thing (though not that there's much tangible difference between hillary and obama). but obama has been able to run a stunningly clean campaign as of yet, and it has helped him infinitely more than it has hurt him.
Yes, but if she's acting according to how she may be perceived (i.e. as a "flip-flopper" or not one), then she's creating an image. Everyone creates an image to some extent... but the more a politician seems to be a contrived image than a real person, the more I don't like them. (Just in general... I realize it's difficult to entirely avoid this, if not impossible to do so. All of them do it to varying degrees.)even if she is "inflexible and narrow", what else would you want her to be? you DON'T want a president with strong convictions? if she wasn't, the bastard republicans would call her a "flip-flopper" or some nonsense.
I didn't say I didn't want a president with strong convictions... I just don't want a president (like our current one) who is wed so strongly to his/her convictions that s/he cannot conceive of anything beyond or outside of them. Clinton seems too narrow in her views... (though not as narrow as Bush is). I need to know the president is able to have convictions but also able to consider points of view that are not his/her own... I think that is an important leadership quality.
The history of the Clintons is a history of triangulation. Neither can be trusted to do anything other than cover their own asses. They do what is best for the Clintons - not what's best for America. Do I trust Obama 100%? No. I don't trust any politician 100%. But I think he's more trustworthy that Senator Clinton who has proven over and over again what a sellout she is. I'd rather take a chance on someone new than put my stake in someone who has proven not to have the best judgment.
Also, I think Hillary is simply too much of a liability. If she wins this primary, I think we can look forward to another Republican presidency.
At times like this I kind of which I was a Democrat.
Last edited by Animal; 02-06-2008 at 11:40 PM.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
♥ Kucinich 2008 ♥
D-SEI9w1
This is me and my dual being scientific together
i think that the democrats would have to promise to nuke america to lose this election. provided that it's conducted fairly, which is not a given.
That's what we thought in 2004... then look who we got... again. While there's less chance of that this year, I'm not sure the Democrats are a shoo-in just yet.
"How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
-- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet
For some reason, I'm not feeling very good about the democrat's chances currently...
I miss the law and order candidate.
ha
Obama strikes me as incisive, thoughtful, and sincere. Is he uber-experienced in the way of politics as they are? Is that bad? No.
I would trust him to seek for and be a good judge of the advice given to him (to which I think he'll resort to a wide variety of sources). At the very least he seems worthy of my vote. Hillary just seems to me to be a shift in power and, merely in a superficial sense, direction.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
Do you think it's an act? Or just that he can't win?
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
Only ~50% of people thought that... and I don't think that was the reason for a lot of them...
However, I remember during the first Bush election, when I helped out in an old people's home, a lot of the old women there would stare all glazed over at their TVs, and then turn to me and say "you know, that George Bush, he's really something, I like the way he talks" or "I was impressed when his father was in office," etc. It was, in a word, frightfully disturbing and scary! I do have to give Bush credit for near-blinding charisma.
Last edited by marooned; 02-07-2008 at 05:33 PM. Reason: typo
FWIW, since I'm not an US citizen, that makes sense to me.
I must say, though, that from a historical perspective, it's a funny year for the Democrats -- neither Hillary nor Obama have much of a resume, come on. Hillary is a senator for a state she had no connection to whatsoever, and she got elected because she had been Bill's first lady. Obama at least had to forge his own political path.
, LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
I disagree and agree respectively. I think Hillary would not be as strong with independents as Obama would be and would be far more of a standard for conservatives to rally against than Obama. I think the interesting thing to be on the look for is whether or not the religious right will show up to the polls in support of McCain.
In any agenda, political or otherwise, there is a cost to be borne. Always ask what it is, and who will be paying. If you don't, then the agenda makers will pick up the perfume of your silence like swamp panthers on the scent of blood, and the next thing you know, the person expected to bear the cost will be you. And you may not have what it takes to pay.
If people were led by charisma alone they'd vote for the most charasmatic candidate every time... Bush was very charasmatic for instance, but about half of the votes went for Gore instead (in spite of his negative charisma). I feel like you're saying anyone who supports Obama>Clinton thinks Obama is a saint and is misguided by his charisma and superior acting abilities. Although that may factor in, I don't think it's fair to say that's what all of his "supporters" are doing.
Frankly I don't care who's ahead at present. I'll take either of them over that fruitloop McCain in the end.
Last edited by marooned; 02-08-2008 at 02:45 AM. Reason: add'n
Okay. But I mean some people just are that way regardless. For instance I know someone who thinks that Hilary is "scary" and that Obama "has Muslim roots and therefore is also scary" and won't vote for either of them for these sorts of reasons. This person prefers "god-fearing" republican candidates. Even my dislike of McCain... it's because I think he's fanatical-ish and "scary" and a great way to increase international animosity. So really I'm not any better, which is the annoying thing. Anyway. Sigh.
While I note your point, the level of deception you credit him with seems to me stunning. I've read his personal bildungsroman in 'Dreams of My Father' and then his political hopes in 'The Audacity of Hope'. If these are all lies and obfuscations, I could hardly consider him human!
It just doesn't seem possible to me that someone could feel that much, communicate it in print, and it all be a farce or a will to power. I could always be wrong in that, but he would honestly have to be like the lord of the flies for that to be. I mean, he would need to have manufactured a genuinely sympathetic, relatable persona out of thin air. I have numerous doubts about myself, but I can't think I have erred so much.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
I would be pretty happy either way between McCain and Obama. I've had some doubts about McCain at times, but I ultimately think he's a pretty reasonable guy. Pragmatic, maybe a little too much so. Obama's a little too much idealistic, but I think the two of them are probably the best in their respective fields.
Moonlight will fall
Winter will end
Harvest will come
Your heart will mend
Glamourama...calm down.
"To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"
"Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."
I agree with Glamourama. Obama is an empty suit, one that has a scary amount of fanatical support. Goes to show you that good communication skills trumps everything else.
she does have a degree in law from yale just like bill, though, which is where they met. also he never won any political office until she agreed to come and live with him an arkansas.
barack was in the illinois legislature for 7 or 8 years in addition to the senate since 2004 and has many academic accolades.
Lefty
ENFJ
"I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.
if barack is an ENFJ as i believe he is (and michelle obama an ISTJ) then yes he could be considered an actor but also a genuine idealist (its not just rhetoric) and he's also very concientious (the conscientious personality type...its not an act) and he does feel compelled to inspire people to heal them and to heal the world. I relate to him so much and people might think i'm full of shit too but we enfjs are a rare type in the world and we believe in the human spirit.
Lefty
ENFJ
"I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.
Oh reeeaaaaaaalllllllllllllllllyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyyy? So are all ENFjs fountains of benevolence then?
nothing at all.
from socionix:
way to completely ignore the present political map.
gee, the last poll held in montana was in april of 2007 and it featured hillary crushing obama 73% to 12%. these numbers are irrefutable; hillary's going to kill him.
and montana's a red state: obama's supposed to be popular among republicans; if he can only garner a smidgeon of support from montana, think of how poorly he'll do nationwide.
Last edited by niffweed17; 02-10-2008 at 05:09 AM.
idealists aim to be benevolant and you know it.
Lefty
ENFJ
"I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.
i would have been happy to debate you on all the removed parts of your posting and im sure the person just responded innocently. however since you removed the stuff then i dont think anyone is going to debate you about it and if they try to and you dont agree then i'd just ignore the comments and respond to what you are interested in talking about.oh and I had edited that part out of my post here for a reason
it'd be nice if you would remove it, thanks (:
Lefty
ENFJ
"I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.
Oh reallllllllllllllly? How would you know what I know?
what partoh and I had edited that part out of my post here for a reason
it'd be nice if you would remove it, thanks (:
you really don't have a clue, do you?
honestly, if there's some stats or something that I'm missing and should be considering, please link me to them.
i don't know that i have the patience to argue with you over this; wait three weeks and i'll get back to you.
For me Tuesday is one of my seven most favourite days in the week.
and what is your reason for removing it?
This is the belief of some democrats but it is simply wrong. Hillary Clinton is a polarising figure - independents and Republicans are for Obama but would rally around McCain since he is considered a moderate Republican. Polls have consistently shown that Obama does better against McCain than Clinton. The latest polls have shown that Obama would beat McCain by 8% (CNN) and 7% (Time) whilst Hillary would beat him by 3% (CNN) and 0% (Time), which are both within the statistical margin of error anyway. Obama does much better amongst men and contrary to what you might expect, does better amongst white voters as well. Here is a link: http://www.cnn.com/2008/POLITICS/02/...der/index.html
So, on the contrary, democrats would be shooting themselves in the foot if they voted for Hillary Clinton.
And on another note...go Obama!!
LII
Voted for Hillary cus I just think she's more real than Obama. Obama seems really fake to me. I don't really trust his 'vision' because I don't think it's thoguht out. He doesn't push for specific issues as much as he just says "it's time for change." I don't know what specific change he wants because he both says it's time for change and paints himself as a middle ground guy which seem somewhat contradictory. (I can understand the middle ground change argument a little bit but am not that persuaded by it) I feel Obama's a little soft, and I don't think that's what America needs right now. I think America needs to get a good swift kicked in butt and told that they are fucking up shit now and that all the corruption that exists in government needs to be taken care of. Obama I think would be a little too compromising... not hardass enough.
I like McCain as a person, and I think I would get along with him well in real life. I actually helped work on the McCain campaign a little bit in 2000 because I really didn't like Bush campaign and thought McCain was a decent fellow and would make a somewhat decent president (at least better than Bush). Policy wise I think McCain is misguided though and I really wouldn't trust him to make the right decisions right now(or what I think are the right decisions) unless I was there to help him. I feel like he would listen to me in such an event though if we were in a one on one situation.
Last edited by Suomea; 02-10-2008 at 05:13 PM.
Suomea
People who call Obama an empty suit are being irrational. If you go to his website you can read detailed plans, explained in layman's terms, for every major issue. The root of this accusation isn't from an actual lack of substance, but from a disdain for his Fe-focused campaigning.
Obama speaks to people's passions, not their reason, and wisely avoids speaking about policy specifics in most public rallies. When he finally does speak on his political agenda, it's typically at a victory celebration where the attitude of the crowd and of observers is more open to hearing it, because in their minds he has "won" and so his plans are "the winning plans", and anything the winner says will sound good.
It's an interesting example of the power of Fe in politics. Of course, Fe politics can be empty, hostile, or downright evil, but in this case we're seeing a decent example of it. I think he's definitely going to get the nomination and go on to claim the presidency. I think it might actually be a landslide victory.
Also, seeing Hillary fail at her master plan to become president makes me feel really good.
I think this is actually why people see Obama as a phony. He DOES have real policies, but when it comes to presenting a personal image, he generally avoids them, so people hesitate to take him seriously.
Of course some people won't like it, but I think it helps him more than it hurts him.
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