Difficulty explaining your beliefs + Ne HA

[UDP]

I have a hard time talking about my beliefs to other people, and whenever I do it gets weird, and I feel very uncomfortable. I tried speaking with someone today about how the civil rights movement of the 60s can be forgotten easily if you don't really remember the effort people put into it. And yet I think I just came off sounding like I was trying way too hard, and sounded rather foolish. I felt nervous and it was kind of bad. I realized that it was not just Ne HA, but it was Fi dual seeking, because I was having a hard time really saying what I felt wrong or not. So I left things vague, but, being a good listener, the person I was talking to was asking good questions. I wanted to respond but felt like I didn't know the person well enough to really do it right. I felt like I was sort of hoping that the person would "take the ball and run with it", but rightfully so they asked me for understanding. It was just uncomfortable and I think I sounded foolish.

[marooned]

I can definitely see that being connected to Fi dual-seeking. Why do you think it's realted to the Ne HA though? (having difficulty seeing it)

[UDP]

When I try to creatively demonstrate I am talking about or connect things, unless I am really secure with someone and know them well enough, I am not very good at it. Expat wrote a thread a while ago about the pathetic hidden agenda or something, and it was pretty much that sort of feeling. Like it was just kind of backfiring when I was trying to do it, and for a few moments I actually knew that what I was saying was just going to sound awkward when it came out.

Maybe it is more an Fi dual seeking thing.

It was just bad. I am actually tempted to try to explain myself to the person, to try to clear things up.

[UDP]

PS: it didn't help that I felt like I had to hurry up and say things, so I was rushed, and it screwed up my delivery even more. So maybe even some polr shots. I just didn't have everything planned out before I said it, or saw where it was going, so it was sort of awkward sounding.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Doesn't sound like Fi dual-seeking sounds like....what's it called, Fi ego? You went from INTj to a fucking ESTj.... a big leap imo, yet you clearly behave like an introvert. ((Before you sic Expat on me I know, a socionics introvert isn't the same as a blablabla...but still, you just don't really act ESTj-ish much at all.))

That is like SUCH an INFj thing to do though. Like, kinda kill the discussion by saying one really pure and strong thing all at once. All the INFjs I know do that. It is indeed very powerful. It makes people either shut up or hate you (or be in awe of you) - or do something, but it's like the INFj doesn't realize their own strength. It's a weak thing definitely. It's why you have a mana bar, not a rage bar. You exhaust your power in big bursts instead of all the time....while spending most of your time conserving/restoring your energy for those big burst moments.

You seem like you're lonely and that you're your own best friend sometimes (not that there's anything wrong with that), so I think it's easy for you to confuse dual-seeking with what you're actually good at. You seem to be saddened in the real world because you're not around people of your own quadra. You just seem upset that you had to go through a college experience with sooo many betas. ;D

Maybe it is more an Fi dual seeking thing.

No, it's Te-dual seeking. You need somebody to organize and formulate your thoughts so that they can be better appointed to the public. Otherwise you will socially exclude yourself for dropping a moral anvil on people all at once. You are either INFj or INTj still- why you insist on being an ESTj is just beyond my comprehension sometimes because I never really saw you as that.

Just in another thread, and more example of your weak Se: Instead of fighting me about it like others would, you basically say 'fine you can think what you want to think.' Sorry but that points to your weak Se. You don't know how to quite maneuver the conversation where you want it to go, so you just kinda have to isolate and give up easily.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

If I may add one last thing:

I understand it can be frustrating if you have as your polr. Especially in American society, it tends to be quite obvious and ...it does make you a target for all the social awkwardness that you want help about. It's like, one of the most obvious weakness that shows right away, and all I can say is that I understand that it must be very difficult for you. But you can't not be who you are just because you don't want to have a polr. I don't know if you're really doing this, but imo - I think sometimes people avoid those types because they don't want to be associated with having a lack of power. As your quasi-identical, I can relate to this for slightly different reasons.

[UDP]

So you think that an dominant would have trouble talking about what they see as right and wrong.

at your entire line of reasoning.

[UDP]

Just in another thread, and more example of your weak Se: Instead of fighting me about it like others would, you basically say 'fine you can think what you want to think.' Sorry but that points to your weak Se. You don't know how to quite maneuver the conversation where you want it to go, so you just kinda have to isolate and give up easily.

LOL

[Ezra]

Doesn't sound like Fi dual-seeking sounds like....what's it called, Fi ego? You went from INTj to a fucking ESTj.... a big leap imo, yet you clearly behave like an introvert. ((Before you sic Expat on me I know, a socionics introvert isn't the same as a blablabla...but still, you just don't really act ESTj-ish much at all.))

I agree with you that he's not LSE, but you need to develop your reasoning. If you recall, UDP embarked on a massive discourse to prove he was serious about his single type change.

That is like SUCH an INFj thing to do though. Like, kinda kill the discussion by saying one really pure and strong thing all at once. All the INFjs I know do that. It is indeed very powerful. It makes people either shut up or hate you (or be in awe of you) - or do something, but it's like the INFj doesn't realize their own strength. It's a weak thing definitely. It's why you have a mana bar, not a rage bar. You exhaust your power in big bursts instead of all the time....while spending most of your time conserving/restoring your energy for those big burst moments.

You seem like you're lonely and that you're your own best friend sometimes (not that there's anything wrong with that), so I think it's easy for you to confuse dual-seeking with what you're actually good at. You seem to be saddened in the real world because you're not around people of your own quadra. You just seem upset that you had to go through a college experience with sooo many betas. ;D

Poor reasoning. Nonetheless, UDP, have you ever thought about EII? The only reason I ask is that I've had a sudden intuition; the way you talk sounds almost identical to Minde (but in man form, obviously).

No, it's Te-dual seeking. You need somebody to organize and formulate your thoughts so that they can be better appointed to the public. Otherwise you will socially exclude yourself for dropping a moral anvil on people all at once. You are either INFj or INTj still- why you insist on being an ESTj is just beyond my comprehension sometimes because I never really saw you as that.

I disagree. I think he's perfectly adept at organising his thoughts.

Just in another thread, and more example of your weak Se: Instead of fighting me about it like others would, you basically say 'fine you can think what you want to think.' Sorry but that points to your weak Se. You don't know how to quite maneuver the conversation where you want it to go, so you just kinda have to isolate and give up easily.

At first I thought, "no". But fair point.

[bibliophile8]

It's why you have a mana bar, not a rage bar.

I love this forum.

[implied]

Poor reasoning. Nonetheless, UDP, have you ever thought about EII? The only reason I ask is that I've had a sudden intuition; the way you talk sounds almost identical to Minde (but in man form, obviously).

tbqh, i was thinking this earlier when i was reading some of their posts. really odd, but i caught that a bit, too, hah.

[implied]

ahem.

CARLA WHY DID YOU DELETE THAT EXCELLENT POST!!!

[UDP]

? yeah, sure - post away.


As for people asking me about EII - look, it obviously doesn't matter what I say about things, so why are you asking me? It's like a joke. Until there appears to be an actual reason or sincere interest in "what I have to say", then it seems to be a waste of time to put effort into discussion.


Why don't you first deal with your own assumptions about why I am not INTj or ISTj, and INFj - then I'll actually discuss things. You sort it out, I am not really interested in dealing with your wide list of assertions. I've considered my type a lot more than anyone else here has, so when you put some effort into dealing with your own multiple assertions, I'll get back to you.

Does that make sense?

[UDP]

What conclusion do you draw from all of those past threads?

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

So you think that an Fi dominant would have trouble talking about what they see as right and wrong.

Yes! If they are in a situation where it wouldn't be validated, why wouldn't they be? Just because you're good at something doesn't mean it's going to work out. Without support of one's own quadra, most people wouldn't even get out of bed. That's not an exaggeration. Simply fact. I think you might be taking socionics in a little too strongly, or not strongly enough or something. I don't know. I'll try to explain this later.

As for people asking me about EII - look, it obviously doesn't matter what I say about things, so why are you asking me? It's like a joke.

No, they matter- but can't you open your mind to a fucking other possibility instead of just laughing at me and saying LOL. It shows me that you're not really interested in taking things further ((which is okay!))....but if that was the case why did you ask for help? Maybe you were just ranting or trying to get somebody to relate, but I was under the impression you wanted help for your social problems. My bad.

And I realize I'm quite humorous, but that's not the point.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

If you recall, UDP embarked on a massive discourse to prove he was serious about his single type change.

So we buy into that mental masturbation just because he said so and just because it was 'massive?' I know some fat black chick told me when people show who they are believe them, but that's a little much. I read that thread and I just got the impression he was depressed, didn't know who he was, so he made up something that sounded nice. He didn't get much support in his own life for being who he was....something that I just sense. And the facts prove this to me, he always talks about (maybe not always, but enough) feeling like he doesn't fit in and that he's a social outcast. I can relate a lot to that- so I have the audacity to give my .002 I suppose.

He also gave a rather long-winded post before about people he didn't like, and he seemed to seem really kind of just in a cruddy mood like Heath was for a long time....and I don't know.

[UDP]

Yes! If they are in a situation where it wouldn't be validated, why wouldn't they be? Just because you're good at something doesn't mean it's going to work out. Without support of one's own quadra, most people wouldn't even get out of bed. That's not an exaggeration. Simply fact. I think you might be taking socionics in a little too strongly, or not strongly enough or something. I don't know. I'll try to explain this later.

yeah, you do that. Why don't you put some damn effort into explaining why I am now INFj instead of INTj and ISTj - and you deal with the arguments, instead of just backing and saying "omg, omg, you don't listen to anyone". Is it so hard to believe that I've been listening all along and none of your shit is new or interesting? Until you actually put forth the effort into really coherently thinking things out, these ideas like "oh boy, lately you sound like "this type" are pointless". Come on.

And no, don't take this as "omg, omg, there he goes again!" - no, actually, you open your mind and try to understand where I am coming from, for a change. Don't react to my agitation with you, actually react to the content - actually discuss your thoughts. And if you just react to my agitation, then that is indicative enough that whatever interest you have is superficial.

No, they matter- but can't you open your mind to a fucking other possibility instead of just laughing at me and saying LOL.

And how can I demonstrate to you, or anyone else, that my mind is "opened"?
And how are you doing to demonstrate to me that your mind is opened? How am I supposed to know that you are really interested in something, and not just making whimsical remarks off of a few loose ideas that sort of connect together?

It shows me that you're not really interested in taking things further ((which is okay!))....but if that was the case why did you ask for help?

I did not ask for help. What are you talking about?

Maybe you were just ranting or trying to get somebody to relate, but I was under the impression you wanted help for your social problems. My bad.

What the hell does that have to do with me thinking "OOOPS! I must be another type!". I wanted to discuss things. Just because I use socionics terminology and make reference to my type, holy shit, everyone's got to make their comment about how I've been acting like some other type lately. It's like some sort of joke.

And I realize I'm quite humorous, but that's not the point.

... right...

[UDP]

So we buy into that mental masturbation just because he said so and just because it was 'massive?' I know some fat black chick told me when people show who they are believe them, but that's a little much.

*sigh* Right here, I should just stop and exit the thread, and end. I might come back, after I read and consider responding to the rest of this, and actually do that.

.......

mhm.

[UDP]

Fair enough.

[mikemex]

Problems with weak Ne include a difficulty of reducing things to their essence. I've observed this in SEI, ESE, SLI and LSE from close. They have way too much information yet they can't connect the points and make a generalization out of that pile of information. It seems to me like they can't explain things if not through examples.

[UDP]

". They have way too much information yet they can't connect the points and make a generalization out of that pile of information"

Yeah. And I wonder if it is a form of impatience, too - not taking the time to adequately arrange your thoughts, and being compelled to just expel them rapidly or without properly ordering them.

~ weak Ni perhaps