Why do Deltas

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I'm going to try to say this as politely as I can, because I know it's an inherent criticism but please- help me explain the thought processes. Do not try to reflect the problem back on me. I want you to explain *your* thought processes about this, and I in turn will try to defend mine. Let's try not to attack one another but instead come to some sort of mutual understanding.

Who knows, we might say 'fuck it' and just try to beat each other in a bloody pulp. To be honest, that's fun too. But let's try to be civil for starters.

Here's the deal: With Deltas, I often get morally criticized if I make a blowjob joke in public. ((If I'm really comfortable I'll do this. Sometimes just for the hell of it)) And with you guys it's like there's no talking about it with you. It's just like 'this is wrong' just because- and it frustrates me to no end. Sometimes I feel forced to 'tattle' on my beta friends to move ahead in a heavy-delta atmosphere. I hate doing this....but you guys leave me no choice. If my supervisors are Deltas (supervisors as in 'bosses' not socionics supervisors of course) I have to do this.

So yeah deltas, nothing is ever wrong just because you say it is! It really is annoying. It only usually ends up being offensive to deltas anyway. Maybe I am indeed stereotyping/projecting. Maybe only depressed/sheltered deltas think this way. But it really is annoying.

With Betas, I can just be myself a bit more and make sexual jokes. However, I know not everybody wants to hear them- and me too, if somebody *always* talked about sex I would think they were crude too, so I'm working on it. But the extreme sensitivity you guys have is kind of bothersome to me. How can I improve my relationships with Deltas? Because I don't like feeling stifled or feeling like I deserve to be locked up for saying something a little kinky.

I get the impression that Deltas act like they're the only ones that was ever hurt or made fun of in life...or something. How can we both work together to come to a better understanding?

When a Beta does this with you, we're not trying to like um bother you or make you grossed out, we're just trying to connect with you and kind of humanize you. And I know what it's like to be sexually offended....but to me it's much more offensive when people act all...I dunno. Uppity about sex?

To be fair I've had very good delta friends that have warned me not to sleep with somebody that wasn't good for me, and to avoid people that were total assholes. For that I am very thankful. I don't want to 'just lust' either. But for me, it's like I need to experience it myself even if the situation is bad... and as for seducing Deltas, I don't even try even when it's clear to me they like me- because I am afraid of hurting them or something. I'm afraid what we'd do would never ever match your ideals on what sex *should be* so I just kind of give up.

So yeah. Balls in your court, deltas.

[Mariano Rajoy]

Making 'blowjob jokes' in public offends Alpha too. We are more likely to ignore you and not spend time with you in the future, as opposed to telling you to shut up. Such things can be embarassing, no matter what quadrant.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I understand, but it seems bothersome to deltas the most. I've also had alphas before tell me to shut up....or go away. Something about the ENFps/INFjs that this really offends...so I'd like to hear from them in particular.

[Mariano Rajoy]

Why are blowjob jokes in public so important to you?

[PotatoSpirit]

It could be a Ti/Fi difference... there's no logical (Ti) reason I can think of why a blowjob joke should offend someone, but if it is considered "wrong" in a Fi way, then it's gonna be tough to change people's mind.
It's really more of an upbringing thing, people of all quadras might or might not be offended, but it makes sense to me that Fi types would react in a way that makes it obvious they consider it wrong.

As agent 00Minde: license to feel put it, they can feel as they want, I'd stop with the jokes or find another crowd.

[jessica129]

I don't get offended..annoyed would be the better term. People who talk about sex in public seem very immature, that's the only reason it'd bother me. And i only speak for myself.

[tereg]

I don't know if it would offend me personally as much as it would just make me uncomfortable. It would appear to an outsider that I'm really uptight or that I'm being offended, but I can visualize myself with a group of people and how I would react/respond and I would honestly say that the internal feeling is more one of hiding in my shell.

I can envision a social atmosphere where I'm with a group of people, and I feel very neutral with the group, and then a raunchy joke is said to loosen up the group, and I would at that moment feel... like almost like an outsider suddenly. I think it's more of a feeling of just feeling uncomfortable to be a part of something that I don't identify with.

Believe me, I understand exactly the intention behind jokes like that and that those intentions are not bad. And, I don't have a problem with people doing something they want to do or talking about whatever you want to talk about. You have the freedom to do that. It's just that, well it's twofold... on one hand there's this feeling I have where my discomfort will be apparent to the other people if I remained there, and that somehow gives me the impression that I would be responsible for "bringing down the mood" which is something I've been guilty of more than a few times in my life . And then there's this added layer of, again, feeling a certain way (i.e. loosening up) about things that I don't quite identify with where I would then feel like I'm just trying to be something I'm not to accomodate the social mood. In other words, there would be an internal disconnect where I felt like I would feel like I need to kind of force my mood in order to sync with the mood of the group, which internally makes me uncomfortable.

So, in that particular social situation, I would turn very quiet and I would feel very awkward, but it's because there's this sudden need for me to ... jam a square peg into a round hole emotionally. I think you should have the freedom to talk about what you want, but there are some things that I'm just like "Ok, I'm going to just let you guys talk about that and let you guys have your fun" kind of way. Which sounds really... um... it looks really standoffish from the outside, I understand. But, I'm trying to explain to you what's happening internally in people like me.

It's really just a sudden jolt of internal discomfort.

Hope that makes sense.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Why are blowjob jokes in public so important to you?

They're not so important to me. Getting negative reactions for making them, is important, because as a human being- I feel it is my right to improve my relationships with others the best I can. It's not like I'm going to fight you if you ask me to stop. I will obey, but I'm going to tell my friends and I'm probably going to think 'weirdo' in the negative sense off the top of my head. It's just a figure of speech, cause I know we're all 'weirdos.' If I totally hate you, I will say it anyway- but again, that is actually very rare. I've only totally hated one person in my life before. I respect all people, even those in opposing quadras.

Yeah @ tereg! We don't want to be viewed as loud, obnoxious people and you don't want to be viewed as lifeless losers bringing down the mood. Cause either way isn't true. But still with Deltas I have this urge to shake them up, though I don't know how to do it.

[Slacker]

I wouldn't be offended, but I'd probably worry that other people were offended, and it would make me uncomfortable for that reason.

[consentingadult]

Isn't this also a cultural issue? This discussion baffles me, I have never met someone who was offended by blowjob jokes. Or it would have been my American ex.

For what it's worth: Feb 23rd the movie Deep Throat will be on public television here in the Netherlands. The only people who complained about that, were MP's from small Christian parties, the types that don't watch TV and don't ride bicycles or cars on Sunday.

Freedom of speech is a great thing, isn't it??

[meatburger]

Well i dont think it would really bother me that much. In fact i sometimes annoyed by the serious natures of some of my fellow deltas. Ive seen ENFp's and INFj's go all prudish and give me dirty looks for the things that i say. Ive also seen my ESTj friend go all pc on me aswell. ISTp's dont seem to give a crap at all. I tell plenty of off-colour jokes myself.

That being said. If you're jokes are anything like on this forum i think they are over the top. You seem to like to give graphic details about how you handle yourself with men. I actually worked with a dude like this. He was as gay as a church picnic and used to talk at work in detail about his encounters, all the time. An ISTp i knew disliked him intensely. He was perhaps a little homophobic though. I like to think of myself as not really homophobic but to be honest i dont want to hear about your adventures. Just as i dont really want to her about what other guys do to their girlfriends on this forum. I suppose i see sex as private. People say things like "do you bend her over etc?" and im just uncomfortable talking like that. Of course i bend her over but thats no ones business

Perhaps deltas see you're crazy stories in a differen't light. I for one think you try to enforce your sexuality onto others in a hope that society will accept you. Being gay sadly is not 100% accepted by all and i understand this. I basically cringe when i hear someone say something that could lower their standing in the eyes of others. I also feel that class is something that no one has anymore and it annoys me because i like it.

[UDP]

With Betas, I can just be myself a bit more and make sexual jokes. However, I know not everybody wants to hear them- and me too, if somebody *always* talked about sex I would think they were crude too, so I'm working on it. But the extreme sensitivity you guys have is kind of bothersome to me. How can I improve my relationships with Deltas? Because I don't like feeling stifled or feeling like I deserve to be locked up for saying something a little kinky.

The discomfort is mutual, speaking for myself. I don't feel stifled of course, I feel like you're invading something, particularly my emotional or sexual sphere. I don't appreciate when people probe or dive into that. And I REALLY dislike it when people try to get a reaction out of me, or use that sort of technique to establish some sort of a bond. It just puts me off.

You can improve relations by not acting that way of course, but that is one sided. Deltas could just not care and try to be receptive, but that would be one sided too. It seems like the best thing to do is just realize that some people are not receptive to your natural state, modify it a little bit to get by, and just realize that your better friends and stuff might be in your own quadra, etc. I mean, obviously people in opposing quadras are not inherently bad or evil, they just don't value the same things you do. But we can still coexist of course.

I get the impression that Deltas act like they're the only ones that was ever hurt or made fun of in life...or something. How can we both work together to come to a better understanding?

I don't really enjoy making fun of my friends, and that is not how I establish relationships, by making fun of other people, it bothers me to do that. I don't like it when people directly challenge me either, or try to provoke me.

The surest way to develop a friendship with me is to just be polite and not antagonizing. You don't have to say or do a lot, just show, by your actions, that you are trustworthy and decent. Trying to put on an entertaining image or create "atmosphere" only works so much.

When a Beta does this with you, we're not trying to like um bother you or make you grossed out, we're just trying to connect with you and kind of humanize you. And I know what it's like to be sexually offended....but to me it's much more offensive when people act all...I dunno. Uppity about sex?

To each is own.

The difference here seems to be that you use sexual jokes and comments as a means to create relationships, and yet, we only talk about those things after relationships and understandings have been made. It is almost as simple as just a matter of order of things - which one comes first to make you happy. For yourself, the emotional connection is important. That is why you are "Merry". For others, likely deltas and "Serious" people, having some sort of a bond in place is necessary for those jokes or things to be well received. Otherwise it is like - what, who is this, who are you? What are you doing? You don't know me in that way, I don't know you well enough to be talking like that. And so on.

To be fair I've had very good delta friends that have warned me not to sleep with somebody that wasn't good for me, and to avoid people that were total assholes. For that I am very thankful. I don't want to 'just lust' either. But for me, it's like I need to experience it myself even if the situation is bad... and as for seducing Deltas, I don't even try even when it's clear to me they like me- because I am afraid of hurting them or something. I'm afraid what we'd do would never ever match your ideals on what sex *should be* so I just kind of give up.

So yeah. Balls in your court, deltas.

Balls in your mouth


I've been attracted to one ENFjs idea of really passionate sex and her wanting me to ravage her and enjoying getting me worked up, but that's really about it. Betas generally seem too sort of .... passion based? Like I can't take you guys seriously, and everything is sort of a joke. And it seems like they don't appreciate it when I talk seriously about.... most things.

I do get a sense that I am too heavy or too serious about things, especially relationships and related areas, for beta.

[UDP]

Isn't this also a cultural issue? This discussion baffles me, I have never met someone who was offended by blowjob jokes. Or it would have been my American ex.

For what it's worth: Feb 23rd the movie Deep Throat will be on public television here in the Netherlands. The only people who complained about that, were MP's from small Christian parties, the types that don't watch TV and don't ride bicycles or cars on Sunday.

Freedom of speech is a great thing, isn't it??

Like, I've known some EIIs who are offended by bj jokes.
This does not mean that EIIs don't like BJs or don't eve talk about them.
It is, as one of them put it, a matter of how comfortable they are with you. I am that way too. But honestly I only really feel comfortable talking about sexual things with certain people, and it takes a certain kind of bond.


I think from a delta perspective, things like this can just seem immature and distasteful.

[xyz]

I don't know if it would offend me personally as much as it would just make me uncomfortable. It would appear to an outsider that I'm really uptight or that I'm being offended, but I can visualize myself with a group of people and how I would react/respond and I would honestly say that the internal feeling is more one of hiding in my shell.

I can envision a social atmosphere where I'm with a group of people, and I feel very neutral with the group, and then a raunchy joke is said to loosen up the group, and I would at that moment feel... like almost like an outsider suddenly. I think it's more of a feeling of just feeling uncomfortable to be a part of something that I don't identify with.

Believe me, I understand exactly the intention behind jokes like that and that those intentions are not bad. And, I don't have a problem with people doing something they want to do or talking about whatever you want to talk about. You have the freedom to do that. It's just that, well it's twofold... on one hand there's this feeling I have where my discomfort will be apparent to the other people if I remained there, and that somehow gives me the impression that I would be responsible for "bringing down the mood" which is something I've been guilty of more than a few times in my life . And then there's this added layer of, again, feeling a certain way (i.e. loosening up) about things that I don't quite identify with where I would then feel like I'm just trying to be something I'm not to accomodate the social mood. In other words, there would be an internal disconnect where I felt like I would feel like I need to kind of force my mood in order to sync with the mood of the group, which internally makes me uncomfortable.

So, in that particular social situation, I would turn very quiet and I would feel very awkward, but it's because there's this sudden need for me to ... jam a square peg into a round hole emotionally. I think you should have the freedom to talk about what you want, but there are some things that I'm just like "Ok, I'm going to just let you guys talk about that and let you guys have your fun" kind of way. Which sounds really... um... it looks really standoffish from the outside, I understand. But, I'm trying to explain to you what's happening internally in people like me.

It's really just a sudden jolt of internal discomfort.

Hope that makes sense.

Basically... like yeah

[Minde]

As agent 00Minde: license to feel put it, they can feel as they want, I'd stop with the jokes or find another crowd.

???

[UDP]

I think you might be missing the James Bond (agent 007, spy movies, etc) reference...
Took me a moment to figure it out.

Basically...

""As (Minde) put it: people can feel however they want, I'd stop with the jokes or find another crowd""
I believe he was agreeing with you, or something you said before.



- "Agent00Minde: license to feel" is all one term.
It is a parody of Agent007: License to Kill - a James Bond movie

[Minde]

Oh. Clever.

I like it.

[PotatoSpirit]

(c:
I went on a punctuation panic there, sry.

[Expat]

On the "cultural issue" thing that consentingadult raised, a lot of people in Europe tend to overplay these things, especially if it confirms their view that Americans are hopelessly puritan.

The place I've lived where people - at least men when amongst themselves - are most likely to make jokes or comments of this sort is South Africa, at least among people for whom English or Afrikaans is the main language. There it's part of "male bonding" or perhaps just what it is - speaking "fuck" every second word, making jokes about bjs and much worse, raping each other, etc. So there it's definitely a "cultural thing", but the point is - even there, there is a clear difference between those who merely tolerate it and smile indulgently, and those who actively initiate it.

I think it's really as some people have been saying. Some people - of whatever type - tend to associate that kind of subject with a degree of intimacy, otherwise they see it as vulgar. It's as simple as that. If someone likes to make blowjob jokes very often, they will have to accept that some people will find it cool, others will find it crude.

[Minde]

Some people - of whatever type - tend to associate that kind of subject with a degree of intimacy, otherwise they see it as vulgar.

Yes, that's a good way to say it, I think.

[jessica129]

I basically cringe when i hear someone say something that could lower their standing in the eyes of others. I also feel that class is something that no one has anymore and it annoys me because i like it.

I agree. I may come off the complete opposite on this forum, but talking in detail about anything sexual is a complete turn-off for me. As meatburger said, it's about having class. I have never once said anything sexual in the presence of others , in real life, as it's none of their business and I don't want to make them uncomfortable. It's just not classy to talk about something so personal. I don't want to know how good a bj you got, etc...that's your business.

[Christy B]

I understand, but it seems bothersome to deltas the most. I've also had alphas before tell me to shut up....or go away. Something about the ENFps/INFjs that this really offends...so I'd like to hear from them in particular.

If the joke was stupid then maybe I wouldn't laugh, or if it was meant to hurt someone's feelings it would make me mad. But, as long as it wasn't mean spirited I would not care. ENFPs I know wouldn't care either. Betas seems to get pissed about this stuff in my experience, mainly ISTJ and ENFJ.

[meatburger]

Everytime i see this thread title "why do" and Doves i think of this

[tiny_dancer]

That was just what I needed in my morning.

Aaaaand... yeah, I agree with all of the above. Just something I don't feel the need to joke about in large groups.

[ChristiRB]

I think what UDP said earlier sums it up. I wouldn't use that kind of talk as a tool to get closer with someone, it is something shared in jest AFTER we are already close and I am comfortable with them.

Also if that is all the conversation is about then I would get very bored very quickly. I like to talk to people with a little more heart and depth to their personality.

To me, it's a connection breaker not an intimacy builder.

[Creepy-Cyclops]

I really don't know how to define this yet, but sexual jokes can be ok in context. If someones coming out with these types of jokes without caring if its making someone uncomfortable then its not so cool. IRL I think how it comes across with tone of voice and body language has a lot to do with it. If you know the person and have a joke and it's in the context of the conversation then its cool. When it comes to the exact describing of intimate details then its more likely to make me cringe..too much information. I feel thats a bit crass but maybe I'm old fashioned.

[implied]

I really don't know how to define this yet, but sexual jokes can be ok in context. If someones coming out with these types of jokes without caring if its making someone uncomfortable then its not so cool. IRL I think how it comes across with tone of voice and body language has a lot to do with it. If you know the person and have a joke and it's in the context of the conversation then its cool. When it comes to the exact describing of intimate details then its more likely to make me cringe..too much information. I feel thats a bit crass but maybe I'm old fashioned.

ahaha. yes. i experienced this last night with my cousin, who i think is ISFp or INFp. Fe subtype, whatever he is! bullets&doves is going to be just like him when he's 42, i'm pretty sure.

anyhow, in my own case, it just embarrasses the crap out of me more than it offends me. i'm rarely offended really, sometimes amused. sometimes i can banter back and forth with him a good bit and it winds up being amusing. however, i'm usually totally freaked out when he starts asking me questions about my preferences regarding oral sex.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

I am trying to loosen up when it comes to sex (there's a difference between being tasteful and uptight, IMO), but it'd certainly make me uncomfortable. I had a couple of friends who were telling me what they did with each other, and they seemed to have no problem with it. *growls at people's thoughtlessness* Very insensitive, given the situation. I really think they are Ts.

[schrödinger's cat]

What's been said. Also: crude jokes of that kind - people seem to make them in order to get a certain reaction. As if they're thinking "...let's see you react to this one." And that feels like being manipulated.

It's even more off-putting if the person wants to start a verbal fencing match. A playful kind of power struggle. It's like you're simply walking down the road, minding your own business... and suddenly - someone shoves you and then looks at you, eyes all a-glint with mischief. It doesn't exactly feel like you've just made a new friend who wants to relate to you in a deep and meaningful way, is what I'm talking about.

[implied]

I am trying to loosen up when it comes to sex (there's a difference between being tasteful and uptight, IMO), but it'd certainly make me uncomfortable. I had a couple of friends who were telling me what they did with each other, and they seemed to have no problem with it. *growls at people's thoughtlessness* Very insensitive, given the situation. I really think they are Ts.

haha, not all assholes are Ts.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

haha, not all assholes are Ts.

Seems like they'd be more likely to be insensitive, though.

[jessica129]

Seems like they'd be more likely to be insensitive, though.

Not I. I am overly sensitive to what's "appropriate" and hardly ever say anything insensitive to anyone unless provoked. T's aren't manly, foul-mouthed assholes that people are seeming to make them out to be.

[implied]

Not I. I am overly sensitive to what's "appropriate" and hardly ever say anything insensitive to anyone unless provoked. T's aren't manly, foul-mouthed assholes that people are seeming to make them out to be.

well, not all of them. some of them are straight up brutes, for sure. i just think that being t doesn't always equal being totally insensitive. i mean, i've met ENFjs that can put some Ts to shame.

maybe they'd be more likely to be insensitive in that a lot of times they seem to just say things without thinking about other people/the effect it may have on them/whatever.

[Cuddly McFluffles]

Not I. I am overly sensitive to what's "appropriate" and hardly ever say anything insensitive to anyone unless provoked. T's aren't manly, foul-mouthed assholes that people are seeming to make them out to be.

Hm. It wasn't deliberate on their parts. IMO, they just didn't think.

That said, I concede to what you say.

"maybe they'd be more likely to be insensitive in that a lot of times they seem to just say things without thinking about other people/the effect it may have on them/whatever."

That's what I'm saying.