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Thread: Harmonization of Dual Relations Delta edition (ISTp-ENFp & INFj-ESTj)

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    Default Harmonization of Dual Relations Delta edition (ISTp-ENFp & INFj-ESTj)

    What are your thoughts?

    http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ead.php?t=9142






    DIAD: THE MANAGING DIRECTOR - THE HUMANIST


    THE MANAGING DIRECTOR

    Externally severe and efficient, this sotsiotip combines propensity to two contrast enough kinds of love: Pragma and Eros: the ice and a flame, sober calculation and a passionate inclination do by its internally inconsistent person. It prefers to live reason and does not go on an occasion at the feelings. Interests of business at it often prevail of feelings and even above pleasure from dialogue with the favourite person. However periodically it suits the present holidays for the sensations.

    It is the careful and reliable partner. It uses the best efforts for the one whom loves. Its partner can lack compliments and verbal expression of feelings, but the Managing director proves the love in practice, taking up the lion's share of all cares, and happens is quite satisfied, if its partner takes part in a common cause and carries out the problems demanding only attention and patience.

    The partner - the assistant who will not impose to it the will, methods is necessary to it or to dictate the conditions. The managing director could seem absolutely dry, imperous and exacting person if it was not softened somewhat with presence of sensual love - Eros. Propensity to such kind of emotional behaviour does it at times romantic and magnanimous in relation to object of the feelings.

    It is capable to be to the true elect if that suits it as the sexual partner or if it values such partner in life for practical reasons. Its feelings can long burn and brightly though the healthy pragmatism is not alien to them. At absence of reciprocity, it is capable, being guided by feeling of a duty to refuse new hobby. Pragme it subordinates frequently and the erotic feelings though can recollect still long time former love.

    THE HUMANIST

    The combination dimplomatic Storge and inventive Filia does by its ideal partner in life for the Managing director who is hard enough partner. On the one hand, the Humanist allows it to be the head of the family, and with another - demands from the partner of mutual understanding and respect for the interests. It watches, that they with Operating did not have a difference in outlook, in a line of conduct in relation to associates, in education of children, in plans for the future and in everyday affairs.

    In the union with Storge - true family love, such display of love Filia cements the union with quick-tempered, proud and imperous Managing director even more. The humanist as anybody another is able to find the approach to the dualu. It can constrain itself(himself) in dispute and not tell in a temper superfluous.

    The humanist shows the claims in such form, that it becomes a shame to the partner with the incorrect behaviour and sharp statements. Finding-out of attitudes thus terminates not in quarrel, and reconciliation or the promise to reconsider the behaviour.

    The patience and step, care and diplomacy are inherent in the humanist, but it is artless with those whom loves and prefers to speak the truth or to be silent. Its love Storge aspires to the happy harmonious home life full of kindness and mutual concessions. But only not unilateral! The humanist - not sacrificial sotsiotip. And if allows to supervise over itself in practical questions because of the weak fitness to difficulties, absence of penetrative qualities and confidence of it does not mean, that it will allow the satellite to pass a side separating the careful friend from the heartless dictator.

    The humanist spends many sincere forces for re-education of the satellite and approaches it in due course to the ideal. If the partner does not wish to go on compromises, does not give in on its arrangements, it can terminate this union. The managing director is adjusted on creation of strong family: having felt such threat, it can make everything to adjust attitudes.

    The spiritual party of love for the Humanist means much more, than erotic, besides it is timid and consequently requires the initiative partner which actively shows the desires. In love the Humanist is constrained, mistrustful, observant. The slightest deviation in behaviour of the partner perceives painfully and uses the best efforts to keep reciprocity in feelings. Even if for the sake of it it is necessary to show insult and alienation. Repented duala the Humanist forgives and tries to remind of the reason of their disagreements never.

    The managing director does not bear discussion of personal questions and, especially, finding-out of attitudes. Because of it it is inclined to do hasty conclusions and often to make ethical misses which complicate its attitudes with associates. Absence of patience and endurance does it at times sharp and tactless, it does not have not enough not only diplomacy, but also self-criticism. Therefore the patience and persistence of the Humanist with which that tactfully and consistently re-educates restive duala is necessary for it. The humanist acts not only in a role of the tutor, it constantly influences conscience of the Managing director which is sensitive enough and is not alien high moral principles.



    (over max post length??) ok... next post
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    DIAD: THE INSPIRER - THE MASTER

    THE INSPIRER

    As well as the Humanist, has a combination of kinds of love Filia and Storge.

    But Filia here prevails and defines propensity of the Inspirer to harmonious Love only in the event that it feels full spiritual affinity with the partner. Unlike the Humanist, it is the passionate, gusty, violent person in the emotions. As etik and the extrovert, it shows the big interest to new people. Therefore its partner needs to be competitive enough for a long time to keep attention of such not ordinary and restless partner in life.

    The inspirer - big romantik also can long stay in a captivity of the illusions. It is capable to idealize the love and its object so is strong, that can long store in a shower fidelity to the ideal, at all not having any hopes for reciprocity. However, it will not sit, slozha hands. It will win reason, soul and if it is necessary also the body of the person which is for it supervalue, and will do it until will achieve reciprocity. Having disappointed in the ideal, it deeply and strongly experiences.

    It at times does not have common sense, it is capable to make precipitate acts and to go on an occasion at the feelings. At the same time, because of presence in its emotional behaviour of a component of love Storge, it tries to spare the relatives and to not cause complications in their life. It is so got empathy that can offer for the sake of the blessing of others own interests.

    The inspirer is poorly adapted for a life and very much requires care, attention, keenness, protection and support of more realistic, practical and quick person in everyday problems. But it does not bear, when it roughly operate, something to it impose, force it to suffer. It instinctively keeps away from the partner causing to it of suffering.

    It is not capable to be jealous and compete to possible contenders long. It not begins to impose and achieve itself(himself) reciprocity if feels, that it neglect. Because of propensity to love Filia it aspires to equality in all and if someone for it means much also it should be out of competition for the elect. Development other party of its attitudes - Storge otherwise will not receive.

    It is adjusted on sincere attitudes and hard transfers a deceit in any form, therefore its satellite should be true and truthful. For the Inspirer, as well as for the Humanist, the spiritual party of love is very important, but it gives also great value to erotic attitudes. Absence of the initiative from the partner, forces to doubt of completeness of its feelings.

    The inspirer is capable to transform love into a poem, to make its sense of the life, but it can unexpectedly be disappointed in the satellite, not having met full reciprocity or if that does not meet its high ethical requirements. It does by its unpredictable partner.

    THE MASTER

    The master uniting extreme measures - kinds of love Eros and Pragma - as anybody another is capable to give the partner everything, that is necessary for family happiness. From erotic pleasure, ability to a long sensual and spiritual inclination - up to stability and reliability in the private life full of touching care, attention and mutual aid in all. Unlike the Managing director, it has less than pragmatism and more aspiration to harmonious attitudes with the partner.

    The master very much cares of sincere comfort of close people. It is usually constant in the attachments, it is constrained in acts and statements. Very much experiences, if someone will involuntarily offend. However, it not always is capable to recognize the fault at once. Conservatism of love Pragma does by its difficult enough partner, but it willingly goes towards to the favourite person and aspires to restore the lost harmony if sees, that this desire is mutual. Love Eros forces it in many respects to forgive to the elect, but other feeling - Pragma watches that these sins were not beyond admissible.

    It is very constrained in display of feelings, but under a mask of coldness greater sensuality disappears. The master is adjusted on strong and harmonious attitudes what only can give two forms of attitudes most suitable for it - Storge and Pragma. It also is ready to divide interests of the partner and to reach with it necessary spiritual affinity for full harmony in mutual relations, which for this dual pair - the main value in a life. Both of the partner to it actively aspire.

    Trying in all to be such what it would love and respected, the exacting Master to itself aspires to personal growth and development. That it becomes competitive enough to sustain constant comparisons with others. Besides the master loves passionately and sincerely, the truth, not for extraneous eyes. It is able to waken sensuality of the Inspirer often doubting the desires and badly realizing them.

    The inspirer at times seems to it the whimsical child, to bring up which with constant condescension and love - it is a pleasure. The master does not like imperous and self-assured people, their activity - even in a sensuality - suppresses it and does not leave a place for own creativity. This realist too soberly looking for a life, is imposed by optimism of the eternal child-inspirer, helping to avoid the grief and despondency.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Hm. I found the definitions of 'storge,' 'filia,' 'pragma,' etc. I thought they were untranslated Russian or something. Nope.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragma_%28love%29

    Yeah, I'd agree with most of it, for IEEs...

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    Why can't someone accurately translate these? How long have they been out there? You'd think someone could do it by now. I'm sorry, I just can't sift thru that without wanting to hurt someone.

    "But Filia here prevails and defines propensity of the Inspirer to harmonious Love " wtf?? These aren't as bad as the other botched ones, but still.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tiny_dancer View Post
    Hm. I found the definitions of 'storge,' 'filia,' 'pragma,' etc. I thought they were untranslated Russian or something. Nope.

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pragma_%28love%29

    Yeah, I'd agree with most of it, for IEEs...
    They are things you can find in a comm 100 level textbook, it is general stuff.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jessica129 View Post
    Why can't someone accurately translate these? How long have they been out there? You'd think someone could do it by now. I'm sorry, I just can't sift thru that without wanting to hurt someone.

    "But Filia here prevails and defines propensity of the Inspirer to harmonious Love " wtf?? These aren't as bad as the other botched ones, but still.
    Yep.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Do you guys have the originals? im friends with a russian girl. She used to live in moscow so she might be able to help.

    I had never heard of filla and storge either lol
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    THE MANAGING DIRECTOR

    Externally severe and efficient, this socionic type has a propensity towards two different kinds of love. Pragmatic and Erotic: the ice and the flame. A person of sober calcuation as well as passionate inclination, it prefers to live reasonably, and do not go towards passionate inclinations often. They derive pleasure from business interests perhaps even more so then conversation with a loved one. Periodically, they will take a enjoyable vacation.
    I think you are missing the point....

    Original: "However periodically it suits the present holidays for the sensations."

    It means, every now and then, it really likes to take a day off and stay in bed all day with the person it likes a lot, but it does not like to be that way all the time.

    The whole "clash" of Pragma and Erotic is that, on the one hand, there is a very business like and mercenary approach to selecting and dealing with people. Generally, it prefers reason. And yet, on the other hand, there is Erotic, which is not "pragmatic" much - it wants what it wants, and it goes after it passionately. It is an extreme form of desire. To say that "periodically they will take an enjoyable vacation" seems to be an understatement.



    The partner - the assistant who will not impose to it the will, methods is necessary to it or to dictate the conditions. The managing director could seem absolutely dry, imperous and exacting person if it was not softened somewhat with presence of sensual love - Eros. Propensity to such kind of emotional behaviour does it at times romantic and magnanimous in relation to object of the feelings.
    The first sentence is troublesome - I'm not sure if it is talking about requiring a partner who does not try to impose its will too much (se polr?). Something like that would make sense, given the rest of the paragraph.

    The bolded: Unless there was a sensual attraction, the the LSE would be all pragmatics. It would be dry, imperious, dominating, exacting, demanding, hard. But when Eros comes into play, that can totally soften its approach, and consequently lead to magnanimity.


    The point of all of this is that generally speaking the Manager is kind of stiff and unromantic, very practical, dry. But, now and then, it can completely indulge in its desires. Once the "Eros" factor is activated, etc, then the dry and imperious-ness fades. Taking a "vacation for the senses" means throwing pragmatics away for a little bit and enjoying the senses. It has a strong side of general Eros / erotic desire that is somewhat in contradiction to the detached, ruling pragmatism. Thus "fire and ice". When the LSE gets involved in Eros, then it has very powerful, strong desires.


    note: I don't mean to make it sound like Eros must necessarily "follow" Pragma. Both are "in play" at all times, just, in the LSEs case, Pragma is more dominant than Eros.

    Externally severe and efficient, this sotsiotip combines propensity to two contrast enough kinds of love: Pragma and Eros: the ice and a flame, sober calculation and a passionate inclination do by its internally inconsistent person. It prefers to live reason and does not go on an occasion at the feelings. Interests of business at it often prevail of feelings and even above pleasure from dialogue with the favourite person. However periodically it suits the present holidays for the sensations.
    So, if I had to rewrite that whole paragraph, line for line....

    Externally sever and efficient, this type is of two seemingly contrasting types of love: Pragma and Eros; the ice and the flame (coldness and calculating-ness vs. intense passion and heated desire). Internally the LSE can be inconsistent, in that it values sober calculation, yet it has extremely passionate inclinations at times. Generally speaking, the LSE prefers to act rationally and does not like to live off of its feelings. Matters of important business may supercede its own feelings or desires (Stirlitz, the duty bound idealization of a KBG agent, was approached by a prostitute or woman offering him sex, and he said he'd rather have some coffee instead). Matters of business may even supercede talking with its favorite person. Yet in spite of this lean towards business affairs, practical matters, and a sense of duty towards its work,the LSE allows itself to indulge in the powerful feelings and desires and pleasures from time to time.
    Last edited by UDP; 01-28-2008 at 10:43 PM.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Aren't the originals on one of the Russian socionics sites? I suggest you look on a website that's completely in Russian - I'm sure you'll find it easily.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    ************************************************** *************************************************
    I reworded the machine translation a bit. The bolded parts, I do not really know how to translate that effectively.

    I did not attempt to mirror the exact wording of the Russian text, only to covey the meaning of the words spoken. Just post any changes or your own translation if you feel it is inferior.
    I did.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Good day to you Sirs!

    Verily, 'tis true. Who will join me on my merry quest?
    EII-Ne
    5w4 or 1w9 Sp/So

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    Love (capital L) is...like looking into a mirror.
    EII-Ne
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    DIAD: THE INSPIRER - THE MASTER

    Therefore its partner needs to be competitive enough for a long time to keep attention of such not ordinary and restless partner in life.
    This quote makes us seem a bit mean i think. Its pretty truthful but ISTp's just being themselves are more interesting than other types after not long.

    The inspirer is poorly adapted for a life and very much requires care, attention, keenness, protection and support of more realistic, practical and quick person in everyday problems. But it does not bear, when it roughly operate, something to it impose, force it to suffer. It instinctively keeps away from the partner causing to it of suffering.
    This part i actually find slightly offensive lol. it makes us seem like useless human beings. Again, i do see some truth to it. Those who are mean and forceful to us get pushed away very fast.

    it is not capable to be jealous and compete to possible contenders long. It not begins to impose and achieve itself(himself) reciprocity if feels, that it neglect. Because of propensity to love Filia it aspires to equality in all and if someone for it means much also it should be out of competition for the elect. Development other party of its attitudes - Storge otherwise will not receive.
    I agree with this. If my girlfriend would flirt with another guy i would not compete. She should choose me out of her own volition. If she continues to do it i will infact withdraw even more and perhaps even leave.

    THE MASTER

    The inspirer at times seems to it the whimsical child, to bring up which with constant condescension and love - it is a pleasure. The master does not like imperous and self-assured people, their activity - even in a sensuality - suppresses it and does not leave a place for own creativity. This realist too soberly looking for a life, is imposed by optimism of the eternal child-inspirer, helping to avoid the grief and despondency.
    I like this part. I like the idea of being an inspirer but "child" not so much lol. The last sentance sums up the duality pretty well. I do believe there is no one more capable of bringing life and zest to an ISTp than an ENFp. I also believe there is no one better at giving an ENFp what they need than an ISTp.

    ENFp provides emotional support
    ISTP provides physical support
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by njio View Post
    love is nothing but crap with fleeting moments of happiness

    carry on
    high five there. How about just some fun and affection? Love's got too many strings attached to it.

    "ENFp provides emotional support
    ISTP provides physical support"

    Really?
    Last edited by xyz; 01-29-2008 at 12:26 AM.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    So I was going to refute the whole 'poorly adapted for life' as well, then I opened a delinquent gas notice b/c apparently the automatic bank payment I set up got screwed up and now I have 30 seconds to pay my bill. Then my cat spilled a glass of red wine all over my computer. I hope an asteroid doesn't fall on my car tonight.

    Is it really 'poorly adapted' or does Murphy's Law just hate us?

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    Quote Originally Posted by njio View Post
    I swear ENFps are like unicorns around my area
    as far as i know unicorns dont exist in any areas?

    Same with ISTp girls though. In fact single delta women. I cant find any
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You could have done it without the pomp and circumstance... I can't even find what you wrote in all that mental vomit you erected.
    What?

    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    love is neither unconditional nor permanent.

    blah
    EII

    I'll tell you what
    there is plenty wrong with me
    but I fixed up a few old buildings
    and I've planted a few trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    You seem sad... but love doesn't have to be unconditional nor permanent to be worthwhile..
    oh, I'm not sad. I'm actually rather content with life at the moment. I just felt my statement was necessary.
    EII

    I'll tell you what
    there is plenty wrong with me
    but I fixed up a few old buildings
    and I've planted a few trees.

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockclimber View Post
    love is neither unconditional nor permanent.

    blah
    neither is life.

    or jobs. or your sanity.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    true, I don't think anything is

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    what if they're some of your friends? go fork at a factory, lots of enfps in HR offices, met one accidentally in the floor too. she's doing alright. loads of esfps though, and a couple of infjs, lots of beta, some alpha (especially our plant), some estjs, entjs, isfjs, lots of intps, loads of estps, a few infps, quite a few ENFJs...
    ur funny. Its my dream to work on production line. So much variety and fufillment....
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockclimber View Post
    oh, I'm not sad. I'm actually rather content with life at the moment. I just felt my statement was necessary.
    Hmmm... did you really?
    Nothing in the original post talks about love being unconditional or permanent.
    It seems like you think it is your responsibility to point out the errors of the idea of "everlasting romantic love", yes?

    Even though this thread has nothing to do with that notion.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Hmmm... did you really?
    Nothing in the original post talks about love being unconditional or permanent.
    It seems like you think it is your responsibility to point out the errors of the idea of "everlasting romantic love", yes?

    Even though this thread has nothing to do with that notion.
    I believe I wasn't the only person who was a bit off topic. Why single me out?

    Do my views make you uncomfortable?
    EII

    I'll tell you what
    there is plenty wrong with me
    but I fixed up a few old buildings
    and I've planted a few trees.

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    I don't know about him , I just want to know if you believe in the "i love you- for now" phrases?
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Quote Originally Posted by rockclimber View Post
    love is neither unconditional nor permanent.

    blah
    What type of love do you refer to, if I may ask?
    INFj / EII / FiNe
    ()


    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    @RC


    It doesn't matter how I feel about them. It doesn't matter if I agree with them or not, either. I'm entitled to my own views, too.

    I singled you out the for similar reasons as to why hkkmr did - your post seems almost intentionally drawing attention to itself.

    Also, believe it or not, I am interested in your thoughts, so I singled you out to get further explanation from you.
    Last edited by UDP; 01-29-2008 at 08:35 AM.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i think this is an quintessence of Fi as, in part, being Ji of Fe.
    What specifically are you talking about, Dee?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    dee...
    INFj / EII / FiNe
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    dee... ?
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    double post?
    No.


    dee... ?
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    K, that's close enough to a proper reply. So I'll say it -

    YOU'RE DRIVING ME NUTS!


    I have one request/command for you -

    Put. It. In. ONE. Post.


    Now I have one question for you -




    Have you considered communicating....


    ....intelligibly?




    That's all.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    as in wutvr
    i think dee and niffweed would make quite the stunning pair
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

    "And the day came when the risk it took to remain closed in a bud became more painful than the risk it took to blossom." - Anaļs Nin

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    Quote Originally Posted by meatburger View Post
    i think dee and niffweed would make quite the stunning pair
    I wonder who would kill who first.
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    heh heh...

    i think that Fi valuing types are designed (some might believe by time) to have real and natural to them emotional attachments to people or things and since Fi devaluing types disregard (though keep safe @) it, being at the same level of Fi as Fi valuing types are is quite strenuous or quite unpreferred as focal subjectmatter. (lets bomb the thread! (jus kidin))
    Hey, that was all in one post. Good job!


    I have another question, if you don't mind: When you write things, like the above, is it more of a, hm, note to yourself or are you trying to tell somebody else something? Another way of asking the same thing - do you write what you do as an expression of what's transpiring in your head and you don't really care who or if anyone reads it, or do you write with the specific aim of communicating something to the people who you want to read it?

    That's an honest question - it would help me understand you better.
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    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i think both to an extent. i'd love you to understand me and still love me, but i doubt it is possible. it's just my soul... well... it's very not neat.
    Answering both does not help me. Hm, with your permission, let me try again...

    Do you find that your desire is more for expressing yourself or getting people to understand you? Which is your normal comfortable mode, the one that you find yourself in most easily?

    Even if the answer is close to both, please tell me to which side you feel you fall.


    EDIT: As for your soul - nobody's perfect. I don't expect that of you. Actually, at the moment, my expectations of you should be fairly easy to satisfy and not that hard to do. For example, answering my question. I'm making it easy for you.
    Last edited by Minde; 01-29-2008 at 08:05 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i enjoy it (from experience). it's pride maybe, or maybe just socionics inborn extroverted energies... ?
    "It" being... what, exactly?

    I can't tell if you've answered my question.

    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i think you'd make a great psychologist. i lke the Si, the positive Fi, though i still don't trust you fully. i'm now careful with people after so many hits.
    My efforts are not purely altruistic. Nudging you toward less annoying would benefit us both, I think.


    (Also, please note the use of the "multi-quote" function. I think you might find some usefulness in it.)
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    At your convenience, please answer my question. In the grand scheme of things, it is really a very small request. So I expect you to be kind enough to oblige.



    @ UDP - I apologize for the derailment. I hope you understand that I think it a necessary (or at least helpful) detour.
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    no problem. it may very well be your destiny to help people in such a way. i understand.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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