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Thread: Stardust

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Default Stardust

    I know it may get tiring what with all the 'type these characters from such-and-such a movie' threads, but I was wondering if anyone had seen this film and had any opinions on the characters. I'm inclined to see it as embodying the Alpha quadra. One point which may not be so persuasive is that my INTj brother absolutely loved it.

    This leads me to conjecture, on such a flimsy basis I am aware, that he saw in the main character something within himself or that at least spoke to him (for example, the tale of an INTj growing into a hero, or something in the hero/heroine relationship that touched upon his own heart). Of course, that's assuming that my typing abilities are up to par, so that's why I'm putting the question to you all.

    Anyway, what do you think, you who have an inkling of the movie? If you haven't, check it out!

    As for my reasonings about this all, I guess I would say that I perceived a preference for Fe over Fi, yet remarkably Si > Se. Without attempting to spoil the movie for those who haven't seen it, the final blow seemed to me to be very FeSi. I'd hazard to say that Tristan is an INTj and Yvane (sp?) to be an ESFj. Victoria ENFj, Captain Shakespeare ISFp, Humphrey hmm, Gamma?

    The video might be so illuminating, but great song for it!
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    I will qualify my remarks by saying that I've been imbibing the Seagram's Seven and lettin' loose on the . Still, I think there's something to the nonsense I'm spouting.

    And why do I like that song so much?
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    Funny, I just saw this movie for the first time yesterday.
    My INTj dad enjoyed it.
    I think Captain Shakespeare might be ISFp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    OMG I lovelovelovelove that song. It's amazing. I don't know any of the types.......BUT THAT'S BESIDES THE POINT. THANKS FOR MAKING THIS THREAD SO I CAN LISTEN TO THE SONG YOU FREAKING GENIUS.

    Btw, I think Tristan is cutely nerdy....he's better after his stylish haircut though.
    As sad as it sounds, I've been replaying that youtube vid for the past 20 mins just to hear it.

    And yes, I figured that was his Si HA getting served up by the ISFp!
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    I LOVED Stardust.

    It was so campy but in the good way. Camp is nice when it's done right.

    But sometimes though, the music like totally replaced the action. I wanted it to have like more oomphiness to it. And the gay jokes about the Pirate were cool, but they just like....went totally overboard. I get they were trying to be funny. But it was just like....weird, and I looked around and I was like. "Oh great. Now I have to fucking stab a straight guy in the throat to over-compensate for this womanly, inane, non-gay man crap."

    He was being so cute, and even a little hot when he actually acted like a fucking human being (the pirate) then they had to go and turn him into a fucking ....thing? Pure BS.

    As for types of characters, I have no idea. Tristan is a bit like me though.

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    That could be a lot of things, though they certainly aimed towards making it as blatant as possible. Could just be a thinker trying to play a feeling part (assuming it was an ISTp attempting to fill an ISFp role), but when you assume you make an ass out of u and me.
    Moonlight will fall
    Winter will end
    Harvest will come
    Your heart will mend

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    double post (my bad)
    Last edited by Kristiina; 01-28-2008 at 01:00 PM.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    I've seen the movie and typed the characters, my husband has also seen it and he typed the characters the same way. The star herself is ENFj and Tristan can very possibly be ISTj. The girl keeps whining about everything and uses it to create a conversation. I don't really like people like that because it reminds me of myself. My husband said that the girl was very charming and that she had a lot of character. The boy keeps joking around, totally unaffected by the whining. My INFj friends liked the movie but they were saying really bad things about the dialogue. The moments that were about Tristan and the star getting to know each other, just talking there, these felt very distant and awkward to the INFjs.

    I do agree that Tristan behaves very INTj at first. Very non-violent. But his interaction with the rest of the world is very ISTj. I'd have to see the movie again to be more sure, but right now I'd say ISTj>INTj.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

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    I need to pick this movie up. I went to see this movie three times with my friends when it came out. I will need time to assess their types. Are there any additional or changed thoughts on their types since this thread?
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    I'll have to watch it again and get back to you. Not that I'm a star at socionics now, but looking back I'm slightly less retarded these days.

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    That "time + Ni" dealio is a bit horseshit tbh.

    In fact, time travel in a less metaphoric symbolic sense is more likely an Si thing.

    Id have to watch the movia again though, but I remember enjoying it.

    *edit: Actually what you describe is an Fe thing. The internal journies or "paths" of the characters. Maybe as a group you could glean an Ni context...
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    yeah in my edit I sort of agreed with you.

    You are correct though and I rethought it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Time travel?? There is no time travel in the film, so I think you must have misunderstood me.

    I talked about the CONNECTIONS - in space and in time. There are GREAT time lines in the story, and loads of "coincidences" that of course are not coincidences, connecting people and events in time and in space. That is so totally a Ni way of experiencing the world, and what I do all the time, and I can't think of a better movie to explain NiFe (at the moment). It is close to a perfect description of a Ni-web.

    As for Si, I'm sure many people confuse Si and Ni. Also, imo the movie is Beta , and that means the Ni comes with Fe... It's the Beta-Ni I describe above.
    I'm not sure if I buy that argument. The problem is that Stardust is much in the same manner of travel, distance, and connections as the Princess Bride, which is not a Beta movie. So making an argument via the number of non-coincidental coincidences seems rather half-hearted. I can buy that the novella Stardust is Beta, but those who adapted it to film, (and with Gaiman's permission) altered the story to consciously make it more like Princess Bride and with more comical light-hearted moments thrown in. When one further looks into the the effect that the actors' types have on the types of the characters, this shift becomes even more obvious.
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    I don't like that about alpha Fe...
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    I LOVE LOVE LOVE Stardust. A very IEI movie. Beta-style humor, and romance/adventure.

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    Snomunegot munenori2's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Ah, OK! I misunderstood your edit, thinking you meant it was more of a Fe thing.

    Munenori, does that make you Beta?


    Nah, I don't think so. I can see some of the beta interpretations of the film, but I need to watch it again, mostly because I liked the movie a whole hell of a lot. Also, I think Logos' Princess Bride comparison is interesting, since that's a lot of the reason I liked it in the first place (the light hearted fantasy aspect + love story). My original typing of everything had more to do with me thinking I was delta and seeing a sort of Fe I could appreciate but not totally identify with. Plus I liked it and I sure as hell wasn't going to put it in my opposite quadra!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Comical light-hearted moments are not Beta, is that your argument?
    No.

    Not sure I have understood what you are objecting against, other than that you seem to disagree with the Ni I see in the story?
    I am objecting to your interpretations of what constitutes Ni in a movie. The presence of connections in space and time between characters is so frequent across stories regardless of quadra, that it seems a rather tough claim to make that it is primarily Beta.

    Do you think the story is Alpha? And if you do, what do you think the types of the characters are? IMO, most of them are Beta or Beta-ish, but I'm curious about what you see? Maybe we all see what we "want" in the film? It is a very fairytale-like story, and I think many people can relate to the film because of that fact alone. Regardless of functions.
    Could you give examples of these moments you think are not Beta, and why?
    As I said, I did not plan on giving serious thoughts on the matter until I have had the opportunity to approach the movie from a Socionics perspective. Much like Munenori, the friends of mine that seemed to enjoy this movie most came from either Alpha or Delta quadra.

    That being said, I find the Fe in the film far too "emotional" to be the typical Alpha "I'll make things sweet and comfortable for you"-kind-of-Fe. (Example - the star is very moody in a rather Beta NF way, imo.)
    Honestly, the film did not seem that emotional in the way that associate with Beta Fe. It was more subdued, softened and rounded around the edges.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Fair enough.
    I will say that the primary reason that I played necromancer to this thread was due to Munemori's initial Alpha assessment of the movie and the Alphas in Fiction project I want to build upon.
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    I do not think that you can narrow a film down to a single type, so calling this an IEI film is certainly a stretch of credibility and definitely something of an over-analysis, with its fair share of problems which I will not bother to go into. The most you can hope for is to narrow the film down to a quadra's set of valued elements.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post

    The story is clearly introverted. As Jung said, extroverts cannot experience their unconscious DIRECTLY, and need to project their unconscious archetypes onto external objects to experience it!! That is interesting, as for an extrovert the "Stardust" film probably only works as a "fairy tale", while for introverts the story becomes a picture of a quest into Tristan's unconscious. When he crosses the wall, he understands what true love is, and he finds him self and the meaning of his life - he becomes the ruler of his unconscious and rules it with his Anima (his soul) - the Star. This is a very clear picture for me, and probably for most IEIs, while Jung says this can only be "sensed" by extroverts" and thus the fairytale becomes more of a picture than a reality. (Yes, I see my inner world as just as real as the "real" world).

    This is not only introverted, but a very Ni way of seeing things, I think. Anyways, intuition should be fairly clear, and I've already explained how I see introverted intuition, so I'll not repeat it here.

    Ethics > Logics should be fairly clear as well, since it's all about relations and connections between people.

    Irrationality should also be clear. The heros are more or less just walking about, with no clear path, they follow the flow and accept their challenges and happenings as they come. Also the ways the heros chose to do things, the acceptance of circumstances, but still never giving in to them, the romantic thoughts, the acceptance of all people as they are, even if they are "weird" - all of it very irrational and typical of IEIs.

    I guess that typing a film like this is not really correct, and a good film will contain things that all people can enjoy. But also when we look at functions, I think
    • Se>Si should be clear: power battles, hierarchy, idealism, fight for the good cause, never afraid of seeking the hard challenges on the way to "truth", getting what you want, knowing what you want, fight for your ways, etc. I don't see Si at all, except maybe in the outer world, where he lives a more "relaxed" life.


    • Ni : spirituality, immortality, time loops, intuitive connections between everybody and everything, a reason behind it all (it all happens for a cause - to integrate Tristan's outer and inner, in a way), synchronicity


    • Fe/Ti: I guess we all agree on the Fe/Ti>Fi/Te aspect of the film.


    The story is also aristocratic all along. Again this points to Beta >Alpha. I'm pretty sure you'll agree to the aristocratic opinion?

    Some more Jungian connections:
    1. Tristan is half human (his father), half from the land behind the wall (his mother). This is a perfect picture of how humans are half conscious beings, half unconscious beings. (This is definitely a very introverted way of seing things. It is also a fairytale way of explaining the unconscious, known to both extroverts and introverts as a traditional way of showing unconscious happenings. I see all the things happening behind the wall as Tristans quest to understand his unconscious.)
    2. Tristan is in love with a woman in the real world, and wants to bring back a star to show how much he cares about her. The thing is, he's not really in love with this woman, but with the Anima image he has projected onto her - the "perfect woman" - and behind the wall he realises that real love is not about "perfection". (So his unconscious shows him real love)
    3. He fights inner demons and complexes from outside that tells him how he SHOULD live his life, but finally finds HIS way, and lives it regardless of the dangers it puts him in, and at the end he becomes the ruler of his unconsciuos.

    These Jungian/fairytale elements in the film will automatically make it relevant and likeable for ALL quadras, I think, so even if the story and the characters on a superficial level are Beta, the message is universal.
    I really enjoyed this movie and have seen it quite a few times. It may well be IEI, but the reasons are not that convincing.

    With the Se/Si arguement, if anything the film seems to mock that. Tristan seems an unwitting participant in all this. Seems rather Si quadra if anything, he just happens to get involved in all this, and because he is not actually striving for power ends up with it unlike the witches and princes.

    The Ni connections, not sure what you mean about his inner and outer meeting. All I know is that it feels almost like Jim and Pam from the office, where what you think you want turns out not be what you "need".

    And the irrationality, they have a clear path set out from the beginning, and that is to get the star across the wall. Just because obstacles arise doesn't mean irrational. How exactly would you expect a rational to react? And in any case, this is a story and so it needs to captivate the audience, hence the obstacles.

    And not once in the film did I see tristan fight inner demons. This film seems to be entirely about self-realisation, and probably works on underdog appeal, reducing an element of type specificity.
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    I think those reasons work as a good explanation for why IEIs might enjoy the film, but the way buckland explains some of the things seems a lot closer to how I remember seeing the movie.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    The story is still full of Se...
    And power abuse is not something a Beta likes, even if people sometimes seem to think Se is about power abuse. People in the story are VERY determined about what they want, they go for it 100%, and even Tristan is full of this determination (he wants the woman from the village and to bring her the star). That is how I see Se-valuing in the story. Tristan MIGHT be Alpha, but the story is Se > Si. I don't think it contains Si whatsoever. Where did you see any Si?

    In terms of determination, tristan and yvainne are the only relevant cases in trying to see the point of view of the story. The other characters are almost all "bad guys" and considering that they all have an abundance of Se then that more than anything points to a non-Se message in the film. I know beta and power abuse are not synonymous, but power abuse does tend to be valuing territory. And about tristan's determination, he is on a quest to win his love. That is not Se, that is romanticism (however deluded it may be in the beginning).

    The Ni is in the time loops and synchronicities of the story. The web that connects the whole of it.

    I am not sure where I stand with this, though it would be hard to completely separate the whole fantasy and Ni.

    No, I didn't mean in that sense. I meant that the solutions used when meeting different obstacles are irrational. They also seem to be very flexible in the way they meet obstacles. Also the whole story, being a "fanciful one" is rather irrational, and the people in the story seem to all "adjust" to what is there, as opposed to trying to change it.:

    I find that the changes and obstacles are met with great flexibility, and that the main characters in no way try to influence the way things are, they accept them. It is probably not a strong case for irrationality, but still....

    Tristan is not flexible at all, and neither is Yvainne. They both want to get back to their respective homes and are working around whatever crap gets thrown in their way. In no way do they accept them. Only in the end when Tristan figures out his feelings does the original purpose of getting back to his village end. There were loads of times I actually forgot that they were heading back to wall, and suddenly tristan or yvainne would re-state it. The goal was constant, the route variable.

    Hehehe.... the whole STORY can be seen as an image of Tristan's fight with inner demons. If you see the land behind the wall as an image of Tristan's unconscious, then ALL of what happened there was a fight for control against his own inner demons.

    (The part about the soul/anima/star is a bit harder to explain, but the story is a very, very good example of how a man must fight to get control over and then co-operate with his Anima.)

    This could be projection, which I may be guilty of myself in my view of the film. The metaphor may well exist with the wall and anima (which I still don't understand where you are coming from, sorry ), but this may have been more so in the book. It was not pushed in the film, it was just a weird little quirk. I still stand by the self-realisation moral of the story (Add cpt shakespeare into that mix actually, he effectively came out of the closet adding to the theme, and his crew still respected him which is very alpha actually). Maybe that and the whole getting the star's heart meant unconditional love giving immortality rather than actually chopping it out (which actually going with cliche again points away from violent Beta ). I am still not saying that it is a film linked to alpha per se, but I am saying it is not IEI-specific. Maybe they finally succeeded in making a truly good but generic movie.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    What we agree on:
    1. There is an abundance of Se of all kinds in the story.
    2. There is no Si in the story
    I wouldn't say that at all. How can there NOT be any Si in any thing you see, hear, and experience through the senses? Particularly when you're bounding about a fantasy land filled with picturesque views, striking people, good humor, beauty, love, danger, heroic moments, etc? I'm not saying these are exclusively Si domains. There's overlap. But saying that there's no Si in these sorts of experiences at all seems waaaay overboard to me.

    And romanticism is your evidence that this is not IEI? Now, that one can be used to defend myself the next time someone calls me a hopeless romantic....
    I think his point was that the drive to be loved and do things for love probably can't be pinned down to this or that quadra, much less this or that functional strength or preference.

    It is an intuitive story, and will contain both Ne and Ni automatically, no doubt about it. A pure Ne fantasy would be more "expansive", I think, but I haven't thought more about it than detecting the obvious and stronger than usual Ni. There is definitely Ne in the film, too.
    I don't really get what makes it an intuitive story. It's a fantasy sure, but I don't know that that means anything in particular socionic-wise. What does it mean for it be more expansive? It is a fictional world within an otherwise modern world after all. What are we talking about specifically?

    Also, on the Ni points that's a little hard to swallow. I can see how this makes sense for you to see it that way, but saying that's the way it is boggles my mind a bit. Maybe it's because we're arguing what quadra it's closest too and everyone wants a piece of a good film, but I think we're getting to the point where we're talking about how we see the thing instead of how the thing can be seen. Does that make sense?

    The land behind the wall as an image of the unconscious and the star as an image of the Anima (a man's inner picture of a woman/his soul) was just an attempt to explain the story from a Jungian perspective, and to show that this story is interesting for ALL people, from any quadra, as it is telling us important truths about ourselves. It is NOT just a stupid story with no meaning, it is a map to how people must live to be happy. That's why people like the film, regardless of quadra-values in the film or in the story. The Jungian views are taken from psychology, and not Socionics, but I included them to show how the film has a universal aspect that cannot be typed.
    I like the perspective you've got here. The bolded bits I disagree with, though I do think there is a lot of overlap between how people can agree that it's good without agreeing at all why it was good for them. I also think there are people who would still not get into this movie at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    How can I not see any Si? Sensing is on of my weak function, and Si is more or less invisible for me, so that's easy.
    Kidding.... of course I get what you say, and I agree with you. I was talking more about the story and the focus of the characters. The film not only contains Si in the sceneries, but also Ne in the costumes and placements of people, etc, so the film in many ways opens for lot of functions at the same time, and especially the Alpha ones, I think. (But I see these functions as natural bi-products, and not as the main focus of the film)



    That is true, of course, but I made a case for the Se in the film, and the romanticism comment does not prove Si. There IS Se in the story, and less Si. I still don't see any evidences against?

    Again, I am not saying romanticism proves , I am saying that it is the driving force behind their "journey", not necessarily . I have not said there is a lack of in the film, but it is not potrayed in that great a light. I hear what you're saying about beta against negative , but in that case the main characters would also be valuing which they are not. And I definitely disagree that is not a focus. It is difficult to place it individually, but in terms of caregiver-infantile dynamic there are a fair few scenes that show this and I really do think they are crucial for the film. Starting with the bit on shakespeare's ship where tristan and yvainne are dancing and she starts glowing. These are the main bits, but there are other minor areas where it pops up. These scenes have an innocence to it that I just don't attribute to anything but. Added to this is the confession in the carriage by yvainne and later once she is done with her bath and they finally "figure it all out". These are all pointing away from victim-aggressor and therefore should have subdued and more . Every "good" character in the film lacks except maybe Una (Tristan's mum) who I have yet to peg.


    Of course people will see different things in a film, but the story of this film, IMO, is Beta. I don't have to convince everybody, and I don't mind at all that people see different values in the film, it fascinates me, that's why I discuss. Not to convince anyone, but to exchange opinions. I just wanted to explain my opinion, and I might change it if there are convincing evidences of different values, but I haven't seen them yet. Of course there are non-Betas involved in making the film, and Tristan for example, might very well be an Alpha. That is not my point at all. I KNOW that a big work like a film will often contain elements that are not strictly one quadra.

    The story may be IEI (I have not read the book), and I don't know about Gaiman but I have heard that it is his type. The movie though is not. You may still see underlying currents but it has been modified enough that it loses that firm association.

    Of course. This is anyways a very Jungian interpretation of the film, and you can interpret it in a million ways. I do think the message of the film is RELEVANT for all people. That it is relevant, does of course not mean that all people will get into it. And again - the story is probably more appealing to introverts than to extroverts, as we sense more of this "psychological" levels of the film, while the story for an extrovert probably is a lot more "only pure and easy feel-good fiction".

    This is what von Franz (Jungian) said about extroverts vs introverts when it comes to knowing and experiencing one's own unconscious, and I find it VERY interesting, even from a Socionics' point of view:



    This is a BIG difference between extroverts and introverts, that I should probably make a thread about one day....

    I watched it with my flatmate and she was bored until we got to the meatier scenes (at which point I had to explain what had happened previously for it to make sense ) so there may be something to it. However, it has to be said that she has a relatively short attention span (not type linked) so that may be the real reason. I do somewhat think there may be something to what you are saying here.
    b
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    Well, Acidup Asomim, I borrowed Stardust from a friend and have rewatched it, and I now agree with you; it is definitely Beta for reasons all too clear that I shall nonetheless elaborate upon in conclusive, non-debatable detail.

    In the film, there are mountains. As mountains are clearly real, tangible, and with observable static external properties, they are signs of Se-valuing, placed there cleverly in the story by a Se-valuing author. Furthermore, since Yvaine fell from the sky to the earth, she most therefore be Se-seeking.

    Jung Lesson #1: Using Jungian psychology, Yvaine's desire to go back to the sky is an indication that she seeks to be using her dominant conscious Ni functions more, but she learns to trust in the reciprocal partnership of Tristan's Se-ego functions.

    Early in the film, Tristan is late for work. This is a sign that he is Ni-seeking, since he would need someone else to keep him on time. He also lost his job for taking action by carrying the purchased goods of Victoria. His taking action to lose his job and his picking up of objects shows a strong conscious use of Se. His talk to Victoria of traveling all over to get her a diamond is also clearly Se/Ni valuing, since as we all know, only Se/Ni-valuing quadras would travel, much less travel for love, or in Tristan's case: marriage. Marriage (as well as the Stormreach monarchy) is an Se + Ti institution. Why else would either be included in the film if it wasn't Beta?

    Yvaine glows. So does Ni + Fe. Duh.

    Since the witches seek to eat the star for beauty, this indicates that Si in the form of gluttony and beauty is being criticized by the film. The color of the witch magic is Green! Aha! For you see, Alphas and Deltas like green, but Betas do not. (Note: Gammas also like the color green, but only as paper.)

    The film also has a flashback (narrative time travel!), which most then mean, of couse, Ni. When Tristan lights the Babylon candle and falls on Yvaine, this is an all too obvious case of Aggressor-Victim love. Yvaine's name also pronounced much like the word vain, so she can be nothing else but IEI.

    Since Tristan chooses to walk the path instead of using the more efficient route of Babylon candle to get back over the Wall, this should be a sign of devalued Te. There are people sleeping in this film, and sleeping is a well known motif of Ni. I am not sure why it is or what it has to do with Socionics, but my word is good enough for this to be true without question.

    Characters get killed in this film. Alphas wouldn't have any of that.

    There is walking in the film. Betas love to walk. There are also horses in the film. Betas also love horses. There is a unicorn in the film. Betas (especially IEIs) really love unicorns. There are pirates in the movie. Betas love pirates.

    Stop!

    Jung Lesson #2: When Yvaine walks into the witch's inn, it is symbolic of the conflict inherent in the conscious ego trying to grasp the inner subconscious.

    Resume!

    When Prince Primus is at the inn, he is trying to relax (Si), but is killed. This is a Beta motif on how idleness of Alpha/Delta quadras gets them killed in the end. Now when the Babylon candle is used for the second time, it transports them to stormclouds, since both Yvaine and Tristan thought of different homes. Thunderstorms are symbolic of Beta conflicts. Also, Yvaine and Tristan are both tied up together in a separate room: this is just how Betas like it. Kinky.

    There is a rapid learning of dancing, sword play, and fine manners on the sky ship. The timeline is sped up in the film with magic! No not really. It's Ni. Ni likes to speed the process and pacing of the film.

    Tristan is a Beta with Se. No further elaboration shall be given.

    Yvaine glows some more. That's glowing over time! Fe + Ni!

    Tristan is turned into a mouse. The cuteness factor: Fe! Tristan as a mouse eats cheese. What a coincidence that is not a coincidence (by the way, that's Ni), Betas love cheesy things! Yvaine tells her feelings to Mouse Tristan: Fe. But wait, you say?

    Question (You): Don't Alphas like Fe?
    Answer (Me): Yes, but Alphas only like Fe paired with Si, which only includes hugs, playing nursemaid, wipping each other's asses, "I'll make things sweet and comfortable for you" and stupid shit like that.

    People grow older through the course of this movie. That's Ni for you.

    Jung Lesson #3: The characters in the film are conscious. This is a representation of the preference in humans to be conscious and not unconscious.

    Tristan cuts a chandelier rope, therefore Stardust is anti-Delta.

    What do stars do? Emit radioactive witch-killing Beta-rays. They shine too.

    Tristan becomes king. Kings are aristocratic. Tristan is aristocratic. Betas are aristocratic. Tristan is Beta.

    Tristan and Yvaine laugh at the sight of receiving a Babylon candle as a coronation gift. Why? Only Alphas would give such a dumb gift to royalty and expect people to be happy to see it, so Betas could not help but laugh at the sight.

    Finally, there is a happy ending. It is really needless to say that happy ending points to Fe > Fi. Fi people are never happy. Fe types are Merry and Fi types are Serious after all.

    Edited to Add: The first song in the credits is talking about ruling the world together. There is something terribly troubling Beta about singing for entertainment a song about militaristic world conquest by starlight.
    Last edited by Logos; 03-26-2009 at 06:00 AM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Well, Acidup Asomim, I borrowed Stardust from a friend and have rewatched it, and I now agree with you; it is definitely Beta for reasons all too clear that I shall nonetheless elaborate upon in conclusive, non-debatable detail.

    In the film, there are mountains. As mountains are clearly real, tangible, and with observable static external properties, they are signs of Se-valuing, placed there cleverly in the story by a Se-valuing author. Furthermore, since Yvaine fell from the sky to the earth, she most therefore be Se-seeking.

    Jung Lesson #1: Using Jungian psychology, Yvaine's desire to go back to the sky is an indication that she seeks to be using her dominant conscious Ni functions more, but she learns to trust in the reciprocal partnership of Tristan's Se-ego functions.

    Early in the film, Tristan is late for work. This is a sign that he is Ni-seeking, since he would need someone else to keep him on time. He also lost his job for taking action by carrying the purchased goods of Victoria. His taking action to lose his job and his picking up of objects shows a strong conscious use of Se. His talk to Victoria of traveling all over to get her a diamond is also clearly Se/Ni valuing, since as we all know, only Se/Ni-valuing quadras would travel, much less travel for love, or in Tristan's case: marriage. Marriage (as well as the Stormreach monarchy) is an Se + Ti institution. Why else would either be included in the film if it wasn't Beta?

    Yvaine glows. So does Ni + Fe. Duh.

    Since the witches seek to eat the star for beauty, this indicates that Si in the form of gluttony and beauty is being criticized by the film. The color of the witch magic is Green! Aha! For you see, Alphas and Deltas like green, but Betas do not. (Note: Gammas also like the color green, but only as paper.)

    The film also has a flashback (narrative time travel!), which most then mean, of couse, Ni. When Tristan lights the Babylon candle and falls on Yvaine, this is an all too obvious case of Aggressor-Victim love. Yvaine's name also pronounced much like the word vain, so she can be nothing else but IEI.

    Since Tristan chooses to walk the path instead of using the more efficient route of Babylon candle to get back over the Wall, this should be a sign of devalued Te. There are people sleeping in this film, and sleeping is a well known motif of Ni. I am not sure why it is or what it has to do with Socionics, but my word is good enough for this to be true without question.

    Characters get killed in this film. Alphas wouldn't have any of that.

    There is walking in the film. Betas love to walk. There are also horses in the film. Betas also love horses. There is a unicorn in the film. Betas (especially IEIs) really love unicorns. There are pirates in the movie. Betas love pirates.

    Stop!

    Jung Lesson #2: When Yvaine walks into the witch's inn, it is symbolic of the conflict inherent in the conscious ego trying to grasp the inner subconscious.

    Resume!

    When Prince Primus is at the inn, he is trying to relax (Si), but is killed. This is a Beta motif on how idleness of Alpha/Delta quadras gets them killed in the end. Now when the Babylon candle is used for the second time, it transports them to stormclouds, since both Yvaine and Tristan thought of different homes. Thunderstorms are symbolic of Beta conflicts. Also, Yvaine and Tristan are both tied up together in a separate room: this is just how Betas like it. Kinky.

    There is a rapid learning of dancing, sword play, and fine manners on the sky ship. The timeline is sped up in the film with magic! No not really. It's Ni. Ni likes to speed the process and pacing of the film.

    Tristan is a Beta with Se. No further elaboration shall be given.

    Yvaine glows some more. That's glowing over time! Fe + Ni!

    Tristan is turned into a mouse. The cuteness factor: Fe! Tristan as a mouse eats cheese. What a coincidence that is not a coincidence (by the way, that's Ni), Betas love cheesy things! Yvaine tells her feelings to Mouse Tristan: Fe. But wait, you say?

    Question (You): Don't Alphas like Fe?
    Answer (Me): Yes, but Alphas only like Fe paired with Si, which only includes hugs, playing nursemaid, wipping each other's asses, "I'll make things sweet and comfortable for you" and stupid shit like that.

    People grow older through the course of this movie. That's Ni for you.

    Jung Lesson #3: The characters in the film are conscious. This is a representation of the preference in humans to be conscious and not unconscious.

    Tristan cuts a chandelier rope, therefore Stardust is anti-Delta.

    What do stars do? Emit radioactive witch-killing Beta-rays. They shine too.

    Tristan becomes king. Kings are aristocratic. Tristan is aristocratic. Betas are aristocratic. Tristan is Beta.

    Tristan and Yvaine laugh at the sight of receiving a Babylon candle as a coronation gift. Why? Only Alphas would give such a dumb gift to royalty and expect people to be happy to see it, so Betas could not help but laugh at the sight.

    Finally, there is a happy ending. It is really needless to say that happy ending points to Fe > Fi. Fi people are never happy. Fe types are Merry and Fi types are Serious after all.

    Edited to Add: The first song in the credits is talking about ruling the world together. There is something terribly troubling Beta about singing for entertainment a song about militaristic world conquest by starlight.
    When I started reading this, I thought you had crossed over. Pretty funny
    LII?

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    That seems a little mean

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    That seems a little mean
    I now feel bad for cheering him on :frown:.
    LII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    That seems a little mean
    Said the Antelope to the Lion, "Could you remove your fangs while eating me? I'm afraid they wound my heart too deeply and down to the bone."
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    If it was meant to be mean, I think the fangs need to be sharpened, since I couldn't feel them.
    It is an old lion. The fangs have been dulled by age and use.

    Also I think he might have bitten his own tail here...? Hope it didn't hurt too much?
    Where?

    Turning this into a "war" between LIIs and IEIs might be a bit over the top, but it also makes the thread a lot more interesting, as we can project a whole lot more on eachother that way, as demonstrated by Logos above.
    A war between LIIs and IEIs? Surely you know that is hardly my intention?

    But - if he actually meant to make fun of ME - then I have to say I am really, really honoured to be made fun of in the same post as he makes fun of Jung, one of the greatest, most revolutionary and bravest minds in history.
    Then I shall honor you more deeply anytime I have the opportunity.

    And as for the film being liked by LIIs - you probably enjoy the Benefit aspect of it?
    Did we not just establish that giving a type to a movie is ridiculous?

    Jung was LII, btw, did you know that?
    so it's settled then; jung is ILI.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    Was it mean?
    I actually LOLed when reading, assuming it was all a sarcastic way of making fun of this thread's serious attempt to type a film??

    If it was meant to be mean, I think the fangs need to be sharpened, since I couldn't feel them. Also I think he might have bitten his own tail here...? Hope it didn't hurt too much? Turning this into a "war" between LIIs and IEIs might be a bit over the top, but it also makes the thread a lot more interesting, as we can project a whole lot more on eachother that way, as demonstrated by Logos above. But - if he actually meant to make fun of ME - then I have to say I am really, really honoured to be made fun of in the same post as he makes fun of Jung, one of the greatest, most revolutionary and bravest minds in history.

    And as for the film being liked by LIIs - you probably enjoy the Benefit aspect of it?

    Jung was LII, btw, did you know that?


    I did not see Logos insult jung once in his post (and if he did, it does not necessarily assume a transitive property with LII as well). All he did was mock your use of his typing. And I disagree on this supposed war as well, though I am relatively invested in this. Neither of us is saying that the movie is LII (though I do see more alpha than beta in it, but that is obviously because I am looking for it as I watch the movie), all we are saying is that it is not IEI as you claim it to be.
    LII?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Mimosa Pudica View Post
    LOL @ that thread.

    As for discussing types of films, why not? Is it important to conclude? Or to arrive at ONE answer? I mean, not even the type of certain people can be agreed upon on these pages. :tongue:
    Because films at most have predominant quadra values, but NOT individually assigned types.
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    I greatly enjoyed the movie, it was actually kind of emotional for me, partly because Yvaine reminded me of a girl I had a huge crush on in college.

    Definitely a beta film, but a good one .

    I think Tristan is probably LII but I could see LSI too.
    Yvaine is definitely Beta NF.
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