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Thread: SLEs/ESTps: The Conquered vs. The Loved

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    Default SLEs/ESTps: The Conquered vs. The Loved

    ESTp's thread reminded me of this dynamic with the type...

    Some ESTp's bore easily, but rarely let go of the people they have pursued and conquered (thereby getting their hidden agenda satisfied). How would "The Conquered" know if the ESTp experiences an emotional connection to the person, or if they are keeping the person around as just another convenient source of 'love'?

    Strangely, they often act more enamored with their random sources than they do with the people they truly care about. This tends to push the 'important' people away because they misinterpret the ESTp's emotional connection - they may feel like "(s)he [ESTp] likes that other person more than me".... which, again, may be completely untrue.

    And... why do they do this? How can "The Loved" be sure of their dominant place in the ESTp's life? What are the signs?

    Or am I way off base here?

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    Exits, pursued by a bear. Animal's Avatar
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    You have to develop a sixth-sense about these things. Part of it comes with experience learning what to look for, and part of it is intuition. A lot of the time, this is the reason for the INFp's needlessly lukewarm approach to relationships, and part of what leads to the sort of frustration ESTP mentioned in her thread below this.

    The main thing to ask yourself is: How does the ESTp treat you in relation to other potential "Fe-fixes" in his life? (And yes, the answer should be "Better.")
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Hmmm... I think "better" treatment by an ESTp might be harder to define since they can be unintentionally harsh and coarse by nature. Plus, they purposely act/speak as though all aquaintances are equal in order to hide their emotional dependence on select individuals.

    I'm not sure dual interaction includes much 'special treatment'. Duals don't have to work nearly as hard to maintain harmonious relations.

    I'm not really having difficulty reading ESTp... but I thought it might help the uninitiated if we could provide tangible examples.

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    i dont totally understand what youre talking about, but sort of, but my first though upon reading this was that it'd make a great socionics article if you came to some conclusions about it and drew up an outline. i wish there was some socionics stuff being published and i end up censoring myself in this forum for fear the person or people in charge of it will capitalize on my ideas...luckily, though, most topics turn to shit before you can even make any headway to the real core of a topic and discover something new.
    Lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty View Post
    i end up censoring myself in this forum for fear the person or people in charge of it will capitalize on my ideas
    ahahahahah
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    ahahahahah

    you yourself, fdg, will never have that problem since you only make vague attempts at snazzy one-liners. in your case there's no intellectual property to protect.
    Lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    You have to develop a sixth-sense about these things. Part of it comes with experience learning what to look for, and part of it is intuition. A lot of the time, this is the reason for the INFp's needlessly lukewarm approach to relationships, and part of what leads to the sort of frustration ESTP mentioned in her thread below this.

    The main thing to ask yourself is: How does the ESTp treat you in relation to other potential "Fe-fixes" in his life? (And yes, the answer should be "Better.")
    christ have mercy.
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    I know I can get intensely jealous, especially if it's an ESTp guy I like. =p

    But more times than not, the ESTp usually chooses to focus on me in private one on one conversations and nobody else. However, if there is another INFp I suppose I'd get competitive. To be honest though, that has luckily never happened. Even though idealistically I want us to like get lost in each other's eyes and be all romantic and exclude everybody else, I know that can't be the case and we have other people in our lives. But all I ask is that just for one day- just one mother fucking goddamn day -- to go how I want it to go. Like an INFp perfect day or something.

    If I really like somebody, I need to get alone with them. Even if I really like them just in a friend way. It's like this urge. I have to see where people stand intimately.

    An ESTp will usually let me know that they're fond of me, like ESTps on this forum via private e-mails. Gender roles and other shit can get in the way, however.

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    [QUOTE=Baby;296730]While their Fi-PoLR + Fe-Mobilizing function may make them hard to read sometimes, I think you may be being a bit heavy handed in dealing out the "random source of Fe" as a category almost mutually exclusive of "actual caring." The line between them is sometimes hazy, yes. But no more hazy than any other aspect of dealing with human beings. Not to mention the fact that they can shift over time, depending on exposure and the depth of your intereraction. [QUOTE]

    I may have made it sound intensely black and white but I do notice, however, that caring and love exist on different planes for SLE. There is an 'in' group and a 'satellite' group. The 'in' group is loved (clung to) for what the SLE appreciates about them as individuals, whereas the satellite group is cared about (loosely) based on how they support the SLE's self-image/agenda.

    The SLE's that I hang out with tend to know a lot of people. But, there is a core group ('in' group) that they seek out and interact with daily. The satellite group is maintained (loosely) but ends up being 'party filler'. You only see the satellite group when they want to host a big party (or they're completely alone and bored because everyone in the 'in' group is busy - or horny and their 'in' girls/guys are busy).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    Aren't most extraverts like that? They have a group of people they actually are close to and then a satellite group of "acquaintances" with whom they spend time when those close friends are nowhere to be found? This seems especially the case with extraverted irrationals, I find. I remember, actually, feeling like I was being "used" as a "go-to friendship fix" with an SEE that I knew one time who would show up every once in a while whenever the party scene slowed up.
    Very true.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    An ESTp would probably be better qualified to provide tangible clues, though. Let's hope Herzy or another ESTp sees this.
    Yup, found it.

    Anyways, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to all of this, so I'll just give some general info.

    The quickest way that someone can tell if I'm just keeping them around as a backup fix is if I immediately move to another group as soon as I see it. For example, if I'm sitting at a lunch table with the "satellite group" as Zenbrat put it, and then I see my core group, I'll figure out the best way to ditch the satellite group and move to the core group. I'm always careful when I do this though because I don't want to lose the satellite group if something happens with the core group. It's actually quite simple when you look at it that way - the group I like better is the group that has priority. Granted, the groups and people change over time, so the core group also changes with that. This is a general pattern that I always follow, though.

    As for how to tell where you stand, you just have to be observant. First off, look for the types of things that I mentioned above, and that will give you a good outline of how much I care about you. Also, another very good indicator of whether you're a priority is the type of conversations that occur between you and a SLE (This applies much better for intelligent SLEs than stupid ones, so take that into consideration also). Put simply, if a SLE starts talking about a bunch of insightful but possibly controversial things with you, then you're definately on a good plane. What this basically means is 1) SLE knows that you're smart, so they don't worry about dumbing things down for you; 2) that they know you're not going to judge them for opening up about a particular subject that others would object to; and 3) they're testing whether or not they'll be able to confide in you in the future. For example, I have a good friend who is SLE, and one time he started telling me about how he goes through periods where he hates everything and everyone, and just locks himself in his room and does nothing but play WoW. He then started giving me reasons as for why this was occuring. Granted, that's only one example, but if a SLE tells you something more personal like that, then you know that they like you more than the average person.

    On the opposite side of the coin, if you're just a fix, I'll be much more likely to talk with you in a very superficial manner. If you can't hold a good conversation with a SLE, it either means that they don't give a shit about you, or they're just stupid in general.

    Hope this helped!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    Yup, found it.

    Anyways, I'm not exactly sure how to respond to all of this, so I'll just give some general info.

    The quickest way that someone can tell if I'm just keeping them around as a backup fix is if I immediately move to another group as soon as I see it. For example, if I'm sitting at a lunch table with the "satellite group" as Zenbrat put it, and then I see my core group, I'll figure out the best way to ditch the satellite group and move to the core group. I'm always careful when I do this though because I don't want to lose the satellite group if something happens with the core group. It's actually quite simple when you look at it that way - the group I like better is the group that has priority. Granted, the groups and people change over time, so the core group also changes with that. This is a general pattern that I always follow, though.

    As for how to tell where you stand, you just have to be observant. First off, look for the types of things that I mentioned above, and that will give you a good outline of how much I care about you. Also, another very good indicator of whether you're a priority is the type of conversations that occur between you and a SLE (This applies much better for intelligent SLEs than stupid ones, so take that into consideration also). Put simply, if a SLE starts talking about a bunch of insightful but possibly controversial things with you, then you're definately on a good plane. What this basically means is 1) SLE knows that you're smart, so they don't worry about dumbing things down for you; 2) that they know you're not going to judge them for opening up about a particular subject that others would object to; and 3) they're testing whether or not they'll be able to confide in you in the future. For example, I have a good friend who is SLE, and one time he started telling me about how he goes through periods where he hates everything and everyone, and just locks himself in his room and does nothing but play WoW. He then started giving me reasons as for why this was occuring. Granted, that's only one example, but if a SLE tells you something more personal like that, then you know that they like you more than the average person.

    On the opposite side of the coin, if you're just a fix, I'll be much more likely to talk with you in a very superficial manner. If you can't hold a good conversation with a SLE, it either means that they don't give a shit about you, or they're just stupid in general.

    Hope this helped!
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    Yep, what Herzy said

    For example...

    There's an SLE I'm cool with. We hang out a LOT. People think we're serious yet we're openly seeing other people. But, he has this problem with trying to get his women to hang out together. This always goes horribly wrong.

    4 times now I've born the brunt of female wrath because he invites other women over while I am there. Usually to parties and larger "football" gatherings - as he says, "it's not right to extend an invitation to one 'friend' but not the others". Once they see how SLE and I interact, they hate me .

    Problem is, he tends to satisfy his curiosity with a new 'interest' and quietly slides them into "satellite" category without letting them know it was a 2-time thing. They know he isn't looking for a wife, but I think he is just so 'nice' to them that it makes them believe they are special. So, a couple of satellites show up thinking that they received a very personal invitation.

    So, the satellites sit there fuming while we play video games, scream at the tv, chat about old times, etc. All of the family and 'in' friends come in, greet me warmly, etc Next thing I know, some woman is storming out. SLE looks at me, smiles nervously, shrugs... I shake my head, laugh, and go back to getting my ass kicked on PS3.

    No matter where we are, or who is around, we gravitate to each other's side. If I leave the room for more than 5 minutes, he comes to find me. If I sit more than a foot away from him, he moves to be next to me (or moves me to be next to him LOL). Sometimes I'm just doing my own thing and not thinking about it - he will call my name LOUDLY from across the room, crook his finger or ask me to "come here" in order to seat or hug me next to him.

    And that is the difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    Aren't most extraverts like that? They have a group of people they actually are close to and then a satellite group of "acquaintances" with whom they spend time when those close friends are nowhere to be found? This seems especially the case with extraverted irrationals, I find. I remember, actually, feeling like I was being "used" as a "go-to friendship fix" with an SEE that I knew one time who would show up every once in a while whenever the party scene slowed up.

    isn't everyone like that?

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    There's an SLE I'm cool with. We hang out a LOT. People think we're serious yet we're openly seeing other people. But, he has this problem with trying to get his women to hang out together. This always goes horribly wrong.

    4 times now I've born the brunt of female wrath because he invites other women over while I am there. Usually to parties and larger "football" gatherings - as he says, "it's not right to extend an invitation to one 'friend' but not the others". Once they see how SLE and I interact, they hate me .
    huh. don't really blame their reaction seeing as how he's misleading them. what a waste of their fucking time, no? not that they should necessarily hate you, it's him they should be pissed at.

    you're really ok with this?

    ILE

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    This idea of a "Fe fix" makes me think I'm not an SLE.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    huh. don't really blame their reaction seeing as how he's misleading them. what a waste of their fucking time, no? not that they should necessarily hate you, it's him they should be pissed at.

    you're really ok with this?
    Nah, he isn't misleading them. He is pretty clear about having other women and not being interested in a traditional relationship.

    Am I ok with this? Well, I don't enjoy dealing with hostile women but I think they received fair warning at the onset.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    Nah, he isn't misleading them. He is pretty clear about having other women and not being interested in a traditional relationship.

    Am I ok with this? Well, I don't enjoy dealing with hostile women but I think they received fair warning at the onset.
    well if he isn't misleading them then why are they getting pissed off? doesn't really make any sense....he must be sending them some kinda vibe where they are fillin all #1.

    ILE

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    Yeah he's probably sending a serious mixed signal vibe to these women and not giving them all the information. Probably lying quite a bit as well. Situational lies where he really doesn't think too much or care about the truth of what he's saying and just says things to continue movement to a purpose. (the purpose being his own ego, or whatever motives he wants) Example being a guy like Dunbar on the real world. Anyway, just my two cents and my guess as to what's happening.
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    To me it seems that the premise of the thread i.e. that the ESTp has "conquered" these women without any intention to "love" them suggests that they have been mislead. Again, the fact that these women come to visit him thinking they are "special guests" only to find out being remote satellites pretty much proves it. Personally I don't understand the relationship logic of the ESTp, nor the starter of the thread nor these conquered women at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    well if he isn't misleading them then why are they getting pissed off? doesn't really make any sense....he must be sending them some kinda vibe where they are fillin all #1.
    Like I said, he doesn't really communicate his decision about them very openly. He conducts typical dating behavior for about 1-4 dates to see what's there, but usually decides "this isn't the right girl, but she's cool to hang out with". All he really says (if they ask) is "I like you but I'm not looking for a relationship". He doesn't actually say "I've decided that I do not want to have a relationship with YOU" unless they get really pushy about it.

    Like Herzy says, he is careful not to alienate the satellite group just in case he has a falling out with someone in the 'core' group. I was gone for 2 months and all of the satellites were pulled in. Now they are dropping off again. I could find this behavior offensive, but I've done it myself so I understand it - why sit at home alone on a Saturday night if you don't have to? Sure, I have my favorites, but if they go away for some reason, there are other people in the 'outer' group that I like to hang out with.


    Quote Originally Posted by Suomea View Post
    Yeah he's probably sending a serious mixed signal vibe to these women and not giving them all the information. Probably lying quite a bit as well. Situational lies where he really doesn't think too much or care about the truth of what he's saying and just says things to continue movement to a purpose. (the purpose being his own ego, or whatever motives he wants) Example being a guy like Dunbar on the real world. Anyway, just my two cents and my guess as to what's happening.
    The signal is pretty clear. I think it's more a case of them pursuing the one who's hard to get and reading MUCH more into time spent together.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    the "shadowy underground realm of beta group dynamics"...?
    Well... it's more a case of the "shadowy underground realm of 'alternative lifestyle' group dynamics". Traditionalists don't quite get that bringing your 'friends' together like that is rather normal. It's expected that everyone just hangs out and has fun without all of the drama and jealousy. You arrive with the person you are 'with' and hang out with 'friends' who show up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    I could find this behavior offensive, but I've done it myself so I understand it - why sit at home alone on a Saturday night if you don't have to? Sure, I have my favorites, but if they go away for some reason, there are other people in the 'outer' group that I like to hang out with.
    Ah ok. This helps to explain it. Personally I don't like to "hang out" with people at all. That's why I don't need satellites. I basically only want relationships or "time spending" with some kind of purpose. There is a very very very small amount of people that break this rule. Even then I can't hang out with them for a long time in a row or I get restless. But a little bit every once in a while is ok and can be very gratifying even.

    About the sitting alone thing. I often would like to spend saturday nights alone. Again because I don't find purposeless hanging out with meaningless people tempting at all and I always have a lot of things on my todo list. Nowadays I have very little personal time though. I'm not happy about it. I don't remember when was my last saturday night alone. Then again I like to meet people, even groups of people, under right circumstances. But there has to be some kind of "agenda" for the meeting.

    Ok. I think I "get" this thread better now.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    Well... it's more a case of the "shadowy underground realm of 'alternative lifestyle' group dynamics". Traditionalists don't quite get that bringing your 'friends' together like that is rather normal. It's expected that everyone just hangs out and has fun without all of the drama and jealousy. You arrive with the person you are 'with' and hang out with 'friends' who show up.
    Hmm...so this is about some kind of idealistic lifestyle thing? That might explain some of the perceived differences too. And Ezra could still be ESTp and disagree I guess.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Something seems very idealized about this entire thread... maybe it's just the ways of thinking about it... that labels "the conquered," "the loved," "satellite group," etc. It like a glossy shiny way of viewing something else... Hmm.
    I was referring e.g. to this: "shadowy underground realm of 'alternative lifestyle' group dynamics". It sounded like the interaction is based on an idealism of some "alternative lifestyle" or something. This alternative idealism seems to suggest you should always be with many in order to be happy. That's just how it sounded to me.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I think it's just some people fall in love with or like more than one person at a time, where as others can only be with one person at a time... or sometimes you just can't figure out what you want... I mean it's "alternative" in that it isn't monogamous. That doesn't really seem idealized to me.
    Well I can only "be" with one person at a time. I can like or perhaps even love more than one though. But to "be" with someone implies monogamy to me. It is a decision more than anything. There has to be limits and there has to be trust to those limits. Otherwise there is nothing. Oh and I don't think you were being annoying at all. I didn't see it that way.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    Ah ok. This helps to explain it. Personally I don't like to "hang out" with people at all. That's why I don't need satellites. I basically only want relationships or "time spending" with some kind of purpose. There is a very very very small amount of people that break this rule. Even then I can't hang out with them for a long time in a row or I get restless. But a little bit every once in a while is ok and can be very gratifying even.
    I need more time alone than most of the people I know, but only a small margin of my friends are introverts. I take downtime when I need it. However, in the past, I learned that being alone for long periods of time (days, weeks, etc) was intensely unhealthy for me. It seemed to breed too much introspection and disconnection from the real world. Negative insights began to loop and gain momentum in the absence of positive input and affirming interaction from others. I do eventually crash like a typical introvert but I can handle a high volume of continuous interaction before that happens.

    About the sitting alone thing. I often would like to spend saturday nights alone. Again because I don't find purposeless hanging out with meaningless people tempting at all and I always have a lot of things on my todo list. Nowadays I have very little personal time though. I'm not happy about it. I don't remember when was my last saturday night alone. Then again I like to meet people, even groups of people, under right circumstances. But there has to be some kind of "agenda" for the meeting.
    I agree, spending some Saturday nights alone is a beautiful thing.

    I think "purposeless hanging out with meaningless people" typifies time spent with the satellite group... we typically refer to these as friendly aquaintances. I abhor superficial 'hanging out' with people in general so I tend to interact almost exclusively with my friends at social events.

    To me, some people are 'in' because the interaction is never purposeless and the people are anything but meaningless - our choices for the closer group are no doubt based on intertype relationships which satisfy psychological needs for rest and activity. Time spent with my core group of friends enhances the quality of my life in various ways.

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    The erotic attitudes may play a role in this somewhat, though the love types (Meged?) seem more appropriate for explaining the dynamic.

    ESTp's relate from Viktoria and Pragma. My ESTp once explained to a friend that in choosing between two women, one should go for the win-win situation: have a sexual relationship with one, and a non-sexual relationship with the other. I watched him do this with a recent (2nd time around) ex... the relationship didn't last long but he was faithful, and continued to spend time with the other women he liked, without having sex with them. This 'time' included what seemed like dating (going out, staying in, cuddling, chatting, etc). It's a lil bizarre, I know, but there is logical method to the madness.

    Viktoria pursues, then Pragma kicks in to determine dynamic and progression based on personal benefit - to a lesser degree, it considers impact upon the other party, but to a far lesser degree than might be deemed fair to the other party's interests.

    For me, Mania and Agape are dead on. I experience early infatuation that slowly settles into an enduring, unconditional love - and endures, for everyone I've ever been involved with. I can, and do, love more than one person at a time. This penchant has caused heartache in my relationships before so I've remained single, but 2 of the 3 people I'm seeing now are fine with polyamorous/swinger relationship ethics, so it works out well.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    I hate, hate, HATE being in the satellite group. I hate when you don't KNOW that you're in the satellite group until it's too late and you've invested a bunch of expections and aspirations and time for nothing. I hate when the person talks to you like you're important, you mean something to them, they give what you have to say weight and consideration.......then get them with other people and *BOOM* you're a satellite.

    It's hard to tell with people....do they really care or are you just an amusement? I've had this problem with a couple guys, they talked to me like (I thought) they really cared....then I find out that's just the way they talk to everybody. Or they were just bored at the time.
    You've got a lot of hate in you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    Like I said, he doesn't really communicate his decision about them very openly. He conducts typical dating behavior for about 1-4 dates to see what's there, but usually decides "this isn't the right girl, but she's cool to hang out with". All he really says (if they ask) is "I like you but I'm not looking for a relationship". He doesn't actually say "I've decided that I do not want to have a relationship with YOU" unless they get really pushy about it.

    Like Herzy says, he is careful not to alienate the satellite group just in case he has a falling out with someone in the 'core' group. I was gone for 2 months and all of the satellites were pulled in. Now they are dropping off again. I could find this behavior offensive, but I've done it myself so I understand it - why sit at home alone on a Saturday night if you don't have to? Sure, I have my favorites, but if they go away for some reason, there are other people in the 'outer' group that I like to hang out with.


    The signal is pretty clear. I think it's more a case of them pursuing the one who's hard to get and reading MUCH more into time spent together.
    Honestly, all "I like you but I'm not looking for a relationship" means in ExTp speak is "be attracted to me." If he says right after it... "I mean it, if you go into this looking for a relationship you will get hurt....." (and stare them down and know that they understood) then he's fulfilled his social responsibility to them and can go on living his life. This clicks on at different points for ESTps, and probably the reason why I get along with some and not all ESTps. Some ESTps feel that they have some social responsibility but don't focus on it all the time while other feel that they have absolutely no social responsibility at all. These are the ESTps I constantly get into fights with.... and they normally eventually move away after serious pressure is put on them for longer periods of time. Other ESTps aren't necessarily concerned with social responsibility all the time but it will click on in their heads at some point and they realize that they need to look out for others welfare and not just their own. I don't know this guy personally so it's hard to reference his behavior at this time completely. The problem with the kind I don't like is that it can be contageous and eventually, if not taken care of, can lead to extremely bad things happening in this world in general in my opinion.

    Oh, and I didn't read your second post until just now. Yeah definitely sounds like the kind I don't get along with hehe, and the kind that I would put serious mental pressure on...... oh well. Anyone who thinks that they have 0 social responsibility I really don't get along with. It's not that I think people should be looking out for other people's interest 24/7.... just some of the time. The "logic" that this guy is using doesn't seem sound in the least from my standpoint at this time. Logic that's just used to continue a completely self serving behavior. Logic that really isn't logical at all hehe. Maybe the other female know about this though. If she's really fine it then more power to him, I think that's great that they could reach such an agreement. It could have been that I pegged this guy wrong just by misreading what you wrote or you might have left out quite a bit of information that might have made me think differently, but it really seems at this time like he doesn't feel any sort of responsibility for the welfare of others. Just my opinion so far though.....: )
    Suomea

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    Well, I think letting someone know that you like them but you don't want a relationship is socially responsible. It's honest. I think, if someone reads something else into the interaction, after that point of honest communication, it is purely their fault.

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    What are love types?

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    Well, I think letting someone know that you like them but you don't want a relationship is socially responsible. It's honest. I think, if someone reads something else into the interaction, after that point of honest communication, it is purely their fault.

    I think you give ESTps too much credit for being dumber than they are. They know what they say and how it will influence others. It's creative Ti for god's sake hehe. Creative Ti types tend to not do anything until they think they know how it will affect others and what their responses will be. If it is honest communication then sure that's socially responsible. If they convey the message to these women that he doesn't want a relationship with them then that's a good thing. Right now based on what you said before though, I'm still under the belief that this probably isn't honest communication and are merely just words he says to cover his butt. Like if someone says "I don't like or eat pizza" and then buys the dough for pizza, buys the sauce for pizza, buys the cheese for pizza, buys pepperoni and all other good topings, preheats the over to 350, kneads the dough, puts the cheese and sauce on top, puts the topings on, puts it all in the oven, cooks it for 35 minutes, takes it out, slices it up, lifts up a piece, puts it in their mouth, chews it up, and swallows it. At any point before the end they could have said "what I said initially is true" and not eaten the pizza. And then after they ate the pizza they still could say it, and most likely would say something along the lines of "oh I didn't say I didn't ever eat pizza I just said I didn't like pizza" and if you didn't have a tape recorder it would be damn near impossible to prove.

    Or let's say someone had a girlfriend and they said "I would never cheat on that person." And then they go somewhere where the other person isn't, starts drinking every night with other women, dances with those women, starts bringing those women to their home, tells those women to come and sleep in their bed, snuggles with those women, gets naked with those women, starts making out with those women, starts having sex with those women, starts.... oh wait that was the end point. This definitely isn't representative of every ESTp I know, but there are subsets of them that exibit this type of behavior and it seemed like it might be the case with this guy......

    P.S. I purposefully made the pizza analogy long just to illustrate all the possible steps and times that they could say that they were being truthful with their initial statement before it bacame untrue.
    Suomea

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    Suoema, maybe I'm an asshole, but I used to say things liek that a lot.

    So Suoema. .. if you were really hungry.. .and there was no other food around would you eat pizza...


    Although where this is usually relevant is:


    If you were locked in a room, for three days. With no objects. Nothing to do. And just a dog. Would you fuck it?

    Would you eat it?

    Would you fuck it, then eat it. And then what would you do with it?

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    I don't discount ESTp's strategic mindset at all. But, it's not hard to tell when they're lying. Maybe that's duality, maybe that's experience - I don't know. Either way, I can tell when they're BS'ing by voice inflection, speech pattern and body language... its unnatural and very different from their usual demeanor.

    You sound a lil bitter, Suomea... ESTp pull the wool over your eyes a time or two?

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    I think it's a question of whether or not he's being deliberately misleading...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    EXTps are pretty deliberate... not always misleading.

    And Suomea, stop giving everything up...
    I mean you could say if he's being deliberately misleading that he's essentially claiming 0 social responsibility (as Suomea put it).

    Quote Originally Posted by Mercutio
    So Suoema. .. if you were really hungry.. .and there was no other food around would you eat pizza...
    Yes, but pizza and human beings aren't really the same thing now are they...

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr
    Even if I was deliberately being honest, I would claim 0 social responsibility.


    Quote Originally Posted by Hkkmr
    But what if I said something totally honest, yet nobody could possibly believe it at the time... was I misleading, or were they merely mislead. Honesty sometimes is the best way to mislead someone, but what do you call this?
    It depends.

    There are ways to be honest and mislead people at the same time... and if that's the intent, then it is indeed misleading others on purpose. Even if they don't fall for it, it doesn't change your intent. (I don't know what you call that.)

    If they just aren't willing to accept your honesty and choose to disbelieve it when you weren't even trying to mislead them, then they were simply misled. Even if you could have been more clear, what counts here is you weren't intending to confuse them of be ambiguous.

    Of course, what is missing here is that we're all responsible for ourselves. So if I were "misled" by someone I would claim responsibility for that in that I make my own choices, and trust my own evaluations.

    But still, in interacting with others, if you successfully (and intentionally) mislead them... it's like capitalizing on their weak areas... in that sense you are responsible in a way for where you lead them (since they didn't know where they were going)...

    It's a toss up.

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    Quote Originally Posted by zenbrat View Post
    I don't discount ESTp's strategic mindset at all. But, it's not hard to tell when they're lying. Maybe that's duality, maybe that's experience - I don't know. Either way, I can tell when they're BS'ing by voice inflection, speech pattern and body language... its unnatural and very different from their usual demeanor.

    You sound a lil bitter, Suomea... ESTp pull the wool over your eyes a time or two?
    Nope can't ever really remember getting the wool pulled over my eyes, but thanks for the sly comment...: ) It's more the Alpha and Beta Fs that certain ESTps fuck over that gets me up in their face. I don't like it when people purposely misleading others without regard for the toll on them at all. Take that scene from skins that Ezra posted. Would have instantly got me moving and involved.


    @merc So the second example is obviously rediculous which you probably already know, but let me get this straight on the first one... what your saying is that fucking is like eating to ESTps and without constantly fucking shit around them that they would die..... hmmmmmmm.... So to them lying to others is like a survival thing similar to a starving man stealing a piece of bread. And I wouldn't normally think this of ESTps, but I guess from your example of only having the choice of one food what your saying is that that ESTps don't have any chance of being able to have sex with women other than the one in front of them and since they have such a hard time actually finding other women who would actually have sex with them that they are forced to go to any measures to have sex with the woman that is presently in front of them. Interesting... but I think I'm going to have to disagree with you on this point. I think that ESTps do/can do semi-decently with women and have seen with my own eyes and even the ESTps that take responsibility for others. I think you're being a little harsh on ESTps merc personally.

    @hkkmr I think you are right on with creative Ti types being very calculating. It's true...they are. They know what they are doing and how it will affect others. Some ESTps take some responsibility for the welfare of others, or feel bad and understand when they didn't, and don't try to lie and continue to try and maintain their cognitive consistency no matter what, and some don't. It's really just the one's that don't care at all that get to me. I have a bunch of ESTp friends who, while not angels all the time, both respond and take responsibility for their own actions some of the time (internally at least even when they still show a tough exterior), and/or look out for the welfare of others when they need to. I think the difference is the complete rejection of 3rd and 4th functions versus saying.... I suck at these.... I don't want to constantly have to worry about these functions all the time because I would go insane if I did, but I understand that I need to use them at some points in my life and can't completely just dismiss them without regard. A reverse example being an ENTp saying I never need to push hard for anything or do anything but sit around and be lazy because it's easier.
    Suomea

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    I'm not trying to be contrary but... the most horrendously deceitful ruse I've ever been subjected to was executed by an ENTp. It was absolutely unbelievable. Not once did he admit the least bit of fault (or muster any semblence of an apology) for devastating several people's lives to satisfy a purely selfish agenda. He justified it to the end... and vehemently continued to deny it when I confronted him with proof.

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