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Thread: Ne and ADD/HD

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    aka-kitsune's Avatar
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    Lightbulb Ne and ADD/HD

    Just a developing thought of mine... I know quite a few lead or creatives (generally males) that seem to have varying degrees of difficulty with focus. Some have mild distraction issues, some more apparent attention issues and some blatant hyperactivity and minds that flit from thought to thought with lightning speed. So impossible to follow!! (But almost endlessly entertaining!)

    I can see how extraverting intuition provides so many open possibilities that one can be easily distracted.

    Anyway... just wondering if this correlation bears out with anyone's experience. Anything to this idea?
    socio: INFp - IEI
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    Yes. I have a tendency to note one idea related to what's going on, and accidentally think that idea all the way through, completely neglecting the situation around me. For instance, a professor's lecture may mention some idea which I intuitively find a consequence for, and, completely unintentionally, I follow this consequence to other consequences and simply stop paying attention to what the teacher is saying. I don't know if this is ADD or ADHD or whatnot, but that is a problem I have to constantly watch out for, especially during boring conversations(no surprise there I guess.)
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

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    Yep. I can see how some Ne types would have problems. My focus isn't great but is passable. My memory is terrible tho. I suspect its because once i feel i understand something im already bored so i dont bother to remember it.

    My infj friend had bad adhd when he was in high school. Brain going insanely fast and he couldn't stop moving
    ENFp (Unsure of Subtype)

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    I wouldn't call it ADHD, but my experiences are pretty much like MysticSonic's. I'll be listening to someone until something they said sparks my attention and then I'll go off chasing that tangent in my thoughts to the point were the world around sort of melts into the background. There's been more than one time when the teacher's called on me to answer something (as I'm off in my own little world) where I've had to be like, "Um, what have we been talking about the last ten minutes?" Since I started college though I've made a point of writing down all the things I'm thinking, so it at least looks like I'm involved. It leaves me with some pretty odd notebooks though...
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    My daughter and I both have terrible issues with this. I was tested in first grade and labeled with something along those lines, but I don't know what they called it back in the dark ages. The schools did recommend Ritalin for it, whatever they called it.

    We're female though, not male.
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    *raises hand*
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    It doesn't matter what socionics says, intuition is a kind of introversion, an abstraction from the environment. It causes people to be detached from their surroundings, exactly the opposite of what "sensing" does (involvement). The more evident the lack of focus is, the more "intuitive" the person is.
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    I find it difficult to see an IJ with ADHD. Perhaps ADD, but not ADHD. Someone please elaborate on this idea for me.
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    ADD and ADHD are PHYSICAL defects, thus outside the realm of psychological types. Sometimes you will hear psychologist talk about physical ADD/ADHD (the real stuff) and emotional ADD/ADHD (which is not really ADD/ADHD by professional standards).

    The issue here is that in both 'types' of ADD/ADHD, the outward behavior is very similar, but the underlying causes are different. People with physical ADD/ADHD lack the means to control their behavior, e.g. as a result of brain damage, which stifles their development. They have a 'disease', in the sense that influenza and cancer are, and although it is a disease with great psychological and social impact, it's still a disease.

    The underlying cause of emotional ADD/ADHD is largely an issue of psycho-social development (in combination with temperament), caused by lack of appropriate attention and/or care, or in adults, an issue of personality pathology. A therapist once explained to me that mental health professionals sometimes diagnose clients with personality disorders with ADD/ADHD instead, because it is a much more acceptable diagnosis to someone in therapy than a personality disorder.

    I think it is important to differentiate between the two, especially because Socionicst -quite rightly- claim that one shouldn't decide on type by observing behavior only, but look at the what drives the behavior from the inside. I think talking about ADD/ADHD as type related is dangerous in the case someone has physical ADD/ADHD. An example of this is Jarno, who writes about ENFp's on socionics.nl:

    "Een opmerkelijk punt is dat mensen met ADHD per defenitie onder dit type vallen."

    translated this says:

    "A remarkable point to make is that people with ADHD by defintion are of this type" (i.e. ENFp)

    I have seen such statements on ExxP's on MBTI sites as well. People who claim such things, simply do not know what they are talking about, and such statements might potentially harm people with either emotional or physical ADD/ADHD, who might think that it's just their type and not seek appropriate help.

    In the late sixties, when I was a toddler, I was sent to a special daycare center, because I was a very 'busy' child (that was what it was called in those days), driving my parents mad with constant activity and questions and talking. I still have tendencies to (mental) hyperactivity, but by no means I have physical ADHD. The underlying cause for my "emotional ADHD" is mainly pathological and its roots are in my temperament and my psycho-social development. The ADHD is only there is situations of social stress: it melts like snow in the sun under the influence of contact with leading Si types ;-)

    One might say that emotional ADD/ADHD is type related, and physical is not. My advise is: differentiate between the two!

    I know most of you don't like Keirsey, but he wrote a very nice article on what I consider emotional ADD/ADHD and how to deal with it in children:

    http://www.keirsey.com/abuseit_looseit.aspx
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    i have ADHD, predominantly inattentive type. they did away with the old ADD diagnosis. now it's one of 4 types of ADHD - predominantly inattentive, predominantly hyperactive/impulsive, combined type, or not otherwise specified.

    while i have most, if not all, of the characteristics of inattentive type, i really only have 3 of the symptoms of hyperactivity/impulsivity (while 6 would indicate a diagnosis of ADHD, combined type). the hyperactive/impulsive symptoms i have are:

    -often fidgets with hands or feet or squirms in seat
    -often gets up from seat when remaining in seat is expected
    -often runs about or climbs when and where it is not appropriate (adolescents or adults may feel very restless)

    i am prescribed Adderall XR.

    apparently the DSM-III included "daydreaming, drowsiness, and sluggishness" as symptoms of inattentive type.
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    I tend to agree with Consenting Adult. I think it's more likely that ENFps are more likely to be misdiagnosed with ADHD because our natural state has some superficial similarities to ADHD than that being ENFp is somehow related to ADHD.
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    Jesus is the cruel sausage consentingadult's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I tend to agree with Consenting Adult. I think it's more likely that ENFps are more likely to be misdiagnosed with ADHD because our natural state has some superficial similarities to ADHD than that being ENFp is somehow related to ADHD.
    ... and be drugged as a result of the misdiagnosis:

    e.g.:

    http://www.keirsey.com/articles.aspx

    scroll to the bottom of the page for the ADD articles. BTW, contrary to Keirsey, I DO think there is such a thing as ADHD, but in line of his reasoning, too many people, especially children, are misdiagnosed with it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    The underlying cause of emotional ADD/ADHD is largely an issue of psycho-social development (in combination with temperament), caused by lack of appropriate attention and/or care, or in adults, an issue of personality pathology. A therapist once explained to me that mental health professionals sometimes diagnose clients with personality disorders with ADD/ADHD instead, because it is a much more acceptable diagnosis to someone in therapy than a personality disorder.

    I think it is important to differentiate between the two, especially because Socionists -quite rightly- claim that one shouldn't decide on type by observing behavior only, but look at the what drives the behavior from the inside. I think talking about ADD/ADHD as type related is dangerous in the case someone has physical ADD/ADHD.
    I agree with you. Since I've just begun investigating this idea, by no means did I intend to conflate any one personality type with a neurological disorder. My belief is that personality traits are generally a matter of scale. My interest has always been in the idea that there is a nebulous point where "trait" or tendency crosses into compulsive "pathology". Psychology and physiology are interrelated and often operate in a feedback loop; the concept of depression illustrates this: is low serotonin a cause or an effect? Pathology results from imbalance in key factors, but can also be mitigated by activity, diet, etc.

    I was interested in the "personality" or emotional manifestation of attention deficit. Thanks for the insight.

    Quote Originally Posted by consentingadult View Post
    One might say that emotional ADD/ADHD is type related, and physical is not. My advise is: differentiate between the two!
    Duly noted.
    socio: INFp - IEI
    ennea: 4w5 sp/sx

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    ... oops ...

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    (Haven't read most of the thread yet.)

    What I wonder is if intuitive irrationals (*especially* dominants) get diagnosed with things like ADD when there isn't really anything wrong with them. (Actually I could see this with dominants as well for different reasons.)

    You know, like the little kid in your 2nd grade class who interrupts the teacher every 2 seconds with his/her new creative thoughts on whatever was being discussed... and then the sage adults in their life are like 'they can't pay attention! => ADD it is, let's put the kid on some god awful medication.'

    It's annoying that the environment doesn't seem to be taken into consideration. Some children for instance just have a really hard time sitting in a desk all day long (and understandably so). I thought through out school that classroom set ups were often quite unaccomodating (in the sense that there are different styles of learning, and they didn't seem to all be addressed).

    Also, maybe some of the jobs and things in society are really requiring humans to focus to a higher degree than we were meant to...

    I think a lot of the ADD thing has to do with standards of the environment.

    That said, I don't know what it's like to actually have ADD. I do have trouble concentrating/focusing at times, but I don't think it's so serious it would warrant a diagnosis of ADD/ADHD/whatever.

    Also I think being in jobs with excessive multitasking tends to make focusing problems worse. If the brain gets used to having to divide its attention between 20 different things, it will adapt to do this more effectively over time... then the person may find that they have difficulty focusing/concentrating on just one thing. I mean that's how it seems to go: the brain responds and adapts to its environment.

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    What i don't get is people trying to put a stop to this endless entertainment/fun..

    WHY???
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Hey Loki, what's that in your sig? Are you salty?
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    I don't buy into all the superficial traits associated with ADD. if there's some chemical issue with someone's brain that hampers their short-term memory or causes them to be mentally flighty, whatever. people can slap whatever label they want on it. I would expect intuitive irrationals to be diagnosed with it more, and most of them probably wouldn't even have it. I get bored in class, so I daydream....

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    Quote Originally Posted by munenori2 View Post
    Hey Loki, what's that in your sig? Are you salty?
    I thought the same thing.
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    Therefore, we are great minds.

    That's just logic, man.
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    Re: the "great minds"

    Well, was going to put a picture of mountain of table salt in my avatar, but then I thought that could too easily be confused with sugar or sand or something else. So then I put an image of molecular table salt in my avatar to clear that up. But then I got tired of that and changed it somewhat. I was trying to hint people into the fact that I don't feel very Socionics competent a lot of time, and that a lot of the things I say should be taken with a grain of salt (I of course feel inclined to say them anyway). So then I just stuck "NaCl" in my sig for short, even though I knew the meaning would be missed.

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    Ah, sense that now makes.
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    ^Dee, are you saying you think I'm ISTp?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i'm not sure now.. but a couple of hours ago, yes.


    I have to admit, I can't figure out dee at all. What an enigma!
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    I think Dee's alpha currently...

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    Currently is the key word. I think I can see where you're coming from though and I agree.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Re: the "great minds"

    Well, was going to put a picture of mountain of table salt in my avatar, but then I thought that could too easily be confused with sugar or sand or something else. So then I put an image of molecular table salt in my avatar to clear that up. But then I got tired of that and changed it somewhat. I was trying to hint people into the fact that I don't feel very Socionics competent a lot of time, and that a lot of the things I say should be taken with a grain of salt (I of course feel inclined to say them anyway). So then I just stuck "NaCl" in my sig for short, even though I knew the meaning would be missed.
    Of course, it's just so... logical!
    "Those who make you believe absurdities can make you commit atrocities..."

    - Voltaire

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    ^and straight forward.

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    I have mild innattentive ADD, which basically means I'd daydream and doodle instead of paying attention in classes that I found boring. But I easily made it through most of university (using superior Ni-slacking skills) before even being diagnosed, and was only diagnosed in the first place because I have a strange fascination with taking tests and found out the ontario gov't would pay for a $1500 assessment, it was two four hour sessions and totally worth it as the final report compared my reading/math/verbal skills to others my age in percentile format.

    I think it's important to differentiate between the physical and psychological types as consentingadult noted. Like quite frankly the "psychological" types are mostly bullshit and could be instantly cured, drug-free, if the obsolete curriculum of educational institutions was reformed. Ne types, in particular, definitely seem to fall victim to such diagnosis. It's funny because reading socionics ENTp and ENFp type descriptions it's actually predicted that they not conform to the typical educational guidelines, i.e. Filatova mentions that ENFps usually don't attain a higher education until later in life. They need to use Ne to try different things before deciding what they actually want to do. Drugging people when they're still too young to make their own decisions so that in the future they might act contrary to their natural inclinations seems kind of suspect, but then again most psychological "disorders", as labelled by the DSM, didn't even exist until the 1970s and their primary purpose of existing at all was as a PR spectacle contrived to bring credibility back to psychiatric institutes, which at the time were repeatedly being proven to be centres of quackery, clever bastards realized people would forget they were charlatans if they changed their names and handed out drugs, lol
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    Quote Originally Posted by misutii View Post
    It's funny because reading socionics ENTp and ENFp type descriptions it's actually predicted that they not conform to the typical educational guidelines, i.e. Filatova mentions that ENFps usually don't attain a higher education until later in life.
    Quite true ;-)

    My grades in high school were really lousy. Despite that, at age 15, I was an expert in Etruskan history (my proposal to study Estruskans in high school was overruled by a majority vote on Egyptian history, how bourgouis!), the history of the English language, Norse Mythology etc. I was lousy (and still am) in mathematics though, until I bought myself a Sinclair ZX Spectrum and programmed it to do my math homework for me.

    I wish I had listened to the psychologist who had tested me after I was kicked out of university (Civil Engineering), who recommended I switch to Sociology or History. I chose Business Administration instead. They kicked me out again. Despite that, I make more money than friends who finished university (and lose it again paying fines for filing my taxes and paying my bills too late).
    The future of Socionics:
    Quote Originally Posted by Maritsa View Post
    Many black Americans are SEE type.

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    ^Well, when you first arrived I thought you were SEI. Then I thought IEI was also possible. I have always thought you are Ti/Fe valuing... and at first was convinced Fe was in your ego. But after you've been posting all of these spreadsheets and what not, I've been feeling confused... at first I thought this could be a manifestation of a Ti HA... but then I started thinking you could actually have Ti in the ego and be Fe-seeking... I realized there's nothing to rule that out from my pov. You don't really seem very Beta (I don't know how to explain it)... so I started thinking Alpha. Your apparent valuing of coming up with new ideas and apparent quest to come up with better and better tests for types... I dunno it seems to fit in with Alpha (not to say this sort of thing would be unique to the Alphans). I don't know which Alpha type you would be... probably irrational. I don't have a strong case for why you might be Ne/Si > Ni/Se, but it's just my impression at the moment. So there's my rambling on about that.

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    I'll tell you why, because dee needs a cosy hug and an encyclopedia! I would guess Ti is more in his super-id and Fe in his ego, yet it's the former that seems to get more air time so to speak. I definitely see Ti > Te, fo sho.

    The Fe over Fi is more problematic, but considering the pretty clear Ti pref, I guess that's a moot point. He explores a lot of options (I apologize since it appears that I'm disregarding the subject of my post, that's you dee) which could point to Ne, but there is almost more of a focus on finding the right/correct/acceptable method of testing type over the multiple alternatives themselves and the multitudinous pathways they might lead one down, which is my faulty and socionically perverse way of saying Ni > Ne. Actually, nothing I'm saying at the moment is probably making any sense whatsoever as the shots are hitting me like bricks and the room is starting to rotate (always clockwise, si that weird?). Basically I'm spoutin goff a lot of bs while I rest assure din my own opinion that I resolved to right this minute.

    Now read you I must James Joyce. What awaits you after your youthful experience with that Dublin prostitute? Signing off.

    @ me I will regret this I'm sure.
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    ^Oh a drunk reading of James Joyce? That should be interesting. Will your remember any of it?

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    ^I think your style with all your tests, and the way you post, seems to involve a lot of classifying, analyzing, and categorization of information trying to get it to fit neatly. I think that's Ti.

    I also don't really see how coming up with all those tests is really going to help establish any Socionics 'facts of reality'... I think trying to get a perfect Socionics test (at least in the form of things like multiple choice and 'rate yourself from 1-3 in these categories') is like chasing a mirage in the distance.

    It seems (it may not be) that you are displeased with the sort of arbitrariness in socionics, about not knowing which type people are or having a sure fire way to prove/test it... which seems to be why you're creating the tests. But I don't think there is a sure fire way.

    It seems like you have a system of categorizations (regarding types, functions, etc.) in your mind that you are constantly revising (or tweaking here and there)... That seems like a Ti process. Analyzing and categorizing data is more Ti IMO (even though the data was gathered from reality).

    As for Fe, hating it depends upon what you mean really... what you think Fe is, or what sorts of things you hate that you associate with Fe...

    So I don't know...

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