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Thread: Can socionics save the economy?

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    Default Can socionics save the economy?

    Now if I understand the quadras correctly, it's the Gammas who recognize economic opportunity, and the Betas who mobilize to achieve it. How can we apply this to the current economic problems afflicting the West?

    First of all, ISTj could resist attempting to reorganize for profit. This would cause debt to rise, but jobs would remain until the excess inventory had been sold. A job-full recession that would last only as long as the excess inventory does. Governments could offer tax rebates to corporations for as long as their inventory remains in surplus. To account for the declines in production, companies could send their workers home (with pay, perhaps modestly reduced), or find alternate uses for them. This would give the companies incentive to sell off their inventory as quickly as possible despite the lower taxation.

    So long as the economy is held in a freeze-frame until the inventory falls, there will only be a momentary pause of a few months before production universally resumes. The trick is not to reorganize.

    As for the housing problem, there will definitely need to be some government intervention on that count.

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    Socionics is a very interesting idea that for me at least has revealed alot about myself, the people I know and the way we interact. I personally think it's useful on the micro level, but I'm not sure about the macro. I really doubt that it can be used to save the economy, anyway.
    LII

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    Quote Originally Posted by akeaneau View Post
    Socionics is a very interesting idea that for me at least has revealed alot about myself, the people I know and the way we interact. I personally think it's useful on the micro level, but I'm not sure about the macro. I really doubt that it can be used to save the economy, anyway.
    Everyone is subject to socionics because everyone has a fixed type. (well, healthy people anyway) Socionics absolutely can be used as an economic control tool because it describes the natures of people's wants and needs very clearly.

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    Socionics will not save the economy. It's like saying "MBTI will save the economy" but ten times more unlikely. No shit.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    First of all, ISTj could resist attempting to reorganize for profit. This would cause debt to rise, but jobs would remain until the excess inventory had been sold. A job-full recession that would last only as long as the excess inventory does. Governments could offer tax rebates to corporations for as long as their inventory remains in surplus. To account for the declines in production, companies could send their workers home (with pay, perhaps modestly reduced), or find alternate uses for them. This would give the companies incentive to sell off their inventory as quickly as possible despite the lower taxation.

    So long as the economy is held in a freeze-frame until the inventory falls, there will only be a momentary pause of a few months before production universally resumes. The trick is not to reorganize.
    The problem with this approach, regardless of whether or not it could work if applied to one single company (or to a country under a command economy as in communism), is that it fails to account for the infinite differences between individual companies (also, among many other things, the level of debt, etc). So while some companies might conceivably do something like that, others - usually referred to as "marginal" ones - would either have to "reorganize", as you put it - or go bust. If that happens, then the whole is also affected, needing yet other adjuments with the same kind of problem.

    And if you try to "compensate" for the individual situation of each company, then, you might as well leave that to the people already running them.
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    Some Special Newscaster: "From the enthralling series that brought you "Can Socionics prevent earthquakes?", "Can Socionics cure cancer?", and "Can Socionics prove the existence of God?", comes this weeks exciting episode, "Can Socionics save the economy?" This week for our special guests we have with us Mr. Adam Smith, Mr. Milton Friedman, Mr. Karl Marx, Mr. John Maynard Keynes, and Mrs....er...Mr. Gulenko.

    So let us now turn to our guest panel and ask them whether or not Socionics can save the economy. Mr. Adam Smith, can Socionics save the economy?"

    Mr. Adam Smith: "No.

    Some Special Newscaster: "Mr. Milton Friedman, do you believe that Socionics can save our economy?"

    Mr. Milton Friedman: "No."

    Some Special Newscaster: "Mr. Karl Marx, do you believe that Socionics can save the economy?"

    Mr. Karl Marx: "No, the only thing that could possibly save the economy is a proletariat uprising against the oppressive bourgeoisie to claim the means of production and the establishment of a communist society."

    Some Special Newscaster: "Okay there...moving on, Mr. John Maynard Keynes, do you think that Socionics can save the economy?"

    Mr. John Keynes: "Ummm...what was the question again?"

    Some Special Newscaster: "I said, can Socionics save the economy?"

    Mr. John Keynes: "Socionics? Saving the economy? I thought you brought me on here to talk about late German Baroque music?"

    Some Special Newscaster: "No, no, no. I thought you were an economist?"

    Mr. John Keynes: "That doesn't mean that I don't have other interests I like to talk about."

    Some Special Newscaster: "Well could you at least answer the question?"

    Mr. John Keynes: "Why would I waste my time answering some dumbass question like that?"

    Some Special Newscaster: "In which case, we will move on to Mrs....er...Mr. Gulenko. Do you think that Socionics can save the economy?.....Ummm...Mrs....er...Mr. Gulenko? Where did she...er...he go? Well I have just been informed that Mrs....er...Mr. Gulenko has gone and shot her...er...himself. So that concludes tonights program. Next week, we will be interviewing the New Zealander All Blacks rugby team to answer the question 'Can Socionics improve your sex life?'"







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    Nice one, Logos.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    The problem with this approach, regardless of whether or not it could work if applied to one single company (or to a country under a command economy as in communism), is that it fails to account for the infinite differences between individual companies (also, among many other things, the level of debt, etc). So while some companies might conceivably do something like that, others - usually referred to as "marginal" ones - would either have to "reorganize", as you put it - or go bust. If that happens, then the whole is also affected, needing yet other adjuments with the same kind of problem.

    And if you try to "compensate" for the individual situation of each company, then, you might as well leave that to the people already running them.
    It's pretty obvious that only the big guys are having overstock problems. The marginal companies are pretty well irrevelant to the larger economic picture, even if they are the ones we hear about on the evening news "struggling to make ends meet".

    It really doesn't matter much to say, IBM how the little mom & pop store on Main St. is doing. The problem is the reorganization, because that results in a surplus of lost jobs that feeds the degenerative cycle. History demonstrates this.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    It's pretty obvious that only the big guys are having overstock problems. The marginal companies are pretty well irrevelant to the larger economic picture, even if they are the ones we hear about on the evening news "struggling to make ends meet".

    It really doesn't matter much to say, IBM how the little mom & pop store on Main St. is doing. The problem is the reorganization, because that results in a surplus of lost jobs that feeds the degenerative cycle. History demonstrates this.
    Then you don't understand what is meant by "marginal companies". A very very big company can be "marginal".

    ETA: that is, companies that, regardless of their size, are in critical situations regarding debt, labor costs, etc. Examples in the US would be Ford and GM. According to some accouning criteria, Ford is already technically bankrupt, which is why their bonds are junk. So if you'd try to apply to them "ISTj-like" sweeping rules that might also apply to healthier companies, they could well go bust ahead of schedule (which might even be a good thing, but anyway).
    Last edited by Expat; 01-25-2008 at 06:56 AM.
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    It seems unlikely socionics will save anything. At any rate, the success or faliure of such an effort is mostly up to the people pushing it.

    You ought to be especially wary of that, Tcau.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    It seems unlikely socionics will save anything. At any rate, the success or faliure of such an effort is mostly up to the people pushing it.

    You ought to be especially wary of that, Tcau.
    What do you mean?

    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    this relies on narrow assumptions about the causes of cycles. how investors will respond isn't addressed (which in turn could effect long-term growth, currency, and inflation.) how consumer preferences will respond (savings, luxury goods, investments in human capital - retraining, etc.) isn't addressed. the microeconomy (incentive compatabilities, moral hazards) at work within the government organizations and industry leaders that would negotiate isn't addressed.

    it's possible personality typology might have some use in economic modeling. i wonder how useful it could become in micromodels, whether in consulting individual firms or studying household economics. it might have some macro potential too in explaining say, preference differences across cultures. but probably not without rigorous model building. i think there are too many variables involved to reason directly from the typology models and some historical anecdotes, as you seem to be doing. data gather and analyze some actual economies first to isolate what matters.
    First of all, let's make one thing clear: whatever happens, it's going to affect EVERYBODY, including the INTps around here. If unemployment rises to say, 7% (...) then job competition will be really tight. It probably won't rise any farther because beyond that number a viscious cycle begins to set in leading to depression; it won't happen. Those who have jobs will be working longer, harder hours for less pay.

    I also heard something really nasty on CNN just now: the problem comes down to rates of consumer consumption by the U.S.. Which is, obviously, absurd. A lot of economists, then, aren't looking at the picture sensibly. Unemployment is already on the rise, it's about 5% now or close to it. Some of those numbers are holiday layoffs, but about .2% probably shouldn't be there. Which means the economy is indeed going downhill.

    This is bad news for everyone involved. For one thing, it means that asshole-type people, who are willing to make work their life in order to get ahead, are going to be moving up, and they'll make everyone who they dislike -- or who they disagree with -- miserable. Bad times give extremism a boost because extremists use fear as an effective motivator, while the rest of us just try to avoid it. They live in fear, and are thus "comfortable" with facing it.

    Nothing can be done about U.S. overconsumption except for a loss of jobs.... But are people really consuming too much over here? Given a median income of $48,201 per household, that seems unlikely. Granted people are living with credit card debt, but that's always been around, nor is it limited to the United States.

    The bigger question is, who is overspending? According to the Consumer Price Index, the lowest income quintile is spending $20k annually compared to only $10k in earnings. The 2nd lowest quintile brings home $25k, but spends 28k. The next quintile makes $42k, but only spends $39k. (with $3k in savings, presumably) The 4th quantile makes 68k, and spends $59K. ($9k savings) The highest quantile makes $148k and spends 90k, with 58k savings.

    The question before us is as regards consumer spending, is how the lowest quantile manages to spend so much?

    For the record my income was about $9k for the entire year of 2007, including $6k in college aid. $2k of that was Stafford loan money. My expenditures were... all of it.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-25-2008 at 09:52 AM.

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    This is why all those boring ESTJs and ISTJs in their little country villages strive for devolution. It avoids all the problems of global economy going bust, because devolution of government leads to less ambition, which leads to human nature becoming more peaceable because they have nothing to compete with. And what is capitalism fed by? That's right; ambition.

    Do not take me up on this; it's not even an assumption. It's merely a brainstorm.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Socionics can do it...people just need to know about it and beleive in it

    If I had any power I'd try to make a difference but im just a nobody.

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    Logos, that was great! I'm still laughing.

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