Let's get this party started

[Satan]

Hey,

I need to attention whore.

Type me.

I'm merk on the chatroom.

[Steve]

Ni ENTj, similar to Ashton in ways.

[cracka]

This thread does not deliver.

[Satan]

This thread does not deliver.

Well, aren't you just a funny one.

[Satan]

Wait, wasn't mercutio that Swedish guy who posted here back in early '06? I'm assuming you're a different one then.

No - it says right here that I joined in 05. So I must have been first.

You came into chat once, I remember. You were real hyper, and threw the conversation around.

Come back into chat sometime

[aestrivex]

if steve thinks youre LIE, probably EIE or SLE.

[Satan]

Do you remember approximately when that was?

Fucking ages ago. When Joy stil went in chat.

[Satan]

if steve thinks youre LIE, probably EIE or SLE.

Well aren't you special.

[XoX]

You are (loosely) in the same group with Ezra, FDG, Ashton, Elena, and Gilly whose types people have different opinions about. They all seem to be Beta or Gamma extroverts of some sort. But hard to tell which ones. With the exception of Gilly who is not Gamma but has a small chance of being Alpha.

I used to think you are ENTj. However my understanding of socionics have shaken since then and now I just don't know for sure. Perhaps the current main stream interpretation round here would put you in Beta and as ESTp. In MBTI you perhaps would be a more clear ENTJ. But the theory goes so that MBTI ENTJ is more likely to be socionics ESTp. Of course some people disagree with that too.

[aestrivex]

But hard to tell which ones.

the fact that most people are idiots who don't know what they're talking about does not make it "hard to tell which ones." at least three of the persons you mentioned are pretty simple cases IMO, and a fourth (gilly) doesn't belong in that list.

[XoX]

the fact that most people are idiots who don't know what they're talking about does not make it "hard to tell which ones." at least three of the persons you mentioned are pretty simple cases IMO, and a fourth (gilly) doesn't belong in that list.

I was trying to keep it "neutral sounding" Of course I have my own opinions about them. Some more sophisticated and some less. And it is true that Gilly didn't use to belong to that list but now he is jumping between ENFj and ESTp so...kind of remotely does But he is different in the sense that no one has ever thought of him as a Gamma.

[Expat]

As niffweed said, most of those people are not hard to figure out at all.

What there is, is a clash between different ways to understand socionics.

Hence the sheer futility of discussions on types of individuals between people who understand socionics differently.

For instance, I am ENTj according to the understading of socionics as per Rick's site, the wiki, and what I see as classical socionics generally.

I am certainly not an ENTj according to hitta's misbegotten version of socionics, and I certainly would not wish Ashton to think we are of the same type. Or, rather, that anyone would think that we are of the same type.

So rather than argue the types of individuals separately, it's better to argue first which version makes more sense.

[FDG]

You are (loosely) in the same group with Ezra, FDG, Ashton, Elena, and Gilly whose types people have different opinions about.

I actually see no clear connection between all those people, in the sense that Ezra is similar to none of them, I am similar maybe to Ashon but to none of the others, Gilly does not belong, etc

[XoX]

I actually see no clear connection between all those people, in the sense that Ezra is similar to none of them, I am similar maybe to Ashon but to none of the others, Gilly does not belong, etc

Well, Ezra and Gilly have shared some "similarity experiences" lately. The only difference is that Ezra is occasionally thinking he is valuing. So the connection between Ezra and Gilly is established.

You and Ashton have shared "similarity experiences". Elena found Ashton's description very familiar and you and Elena have said you are like two berries from the same tree. Connection between you, Ashton and Elena is established.

mercutio and Ashton have been mentioned to be "similar" in some ways and both belong to "ENTj or ESTp" group. This establishes an indirect link between Ashton, Elena, you and mercutio.

Now Ezra and Gilly seem a bit distant from this but Ezra is one of the "ESTp or ENTj" people which establishes an indirect link between you, Ashton, Elena, mercutio and Ezra. And through Ezra also Gilly. So there!

[Ezra]

if steve thinks youre LIE, probably EIE or SLE.

Brilliant.

[Satan]

As niffweed said, most of those people are not hard to figure out at all.

What there is, is a clash between different ways to understand socionics.

Hence the sheer futility of discussions on types of individuals between people who understand socionics differently.

For instance, I am ENTj according to the understading of socionics as per Rick's site, the wiki, and what I see as classical socionics generally.

I am certainly not an ENTj according to hitta's misbegotten version of socionics, and I certainly would not wish Ashton to think we are of the same type. Or, rather, that anyone would think that we are of the same type.

So rather than argue the types of individuals separately, it's better to argue first which version makes more sense.

Am I right in taking this as that you personally don't like Ashton, and don't want to be associated as being the same kind of charachter as him.

If there are wide differences between different interpretations of Socionics, then it makes it hard to take any interpretation seriously, unless you're in the key group that acknowledges the source of their system.

From what I recall, I don't really think much of Hitta. And so I'm going to say that what you call classical Socionics is most important.

And so according to your classical definition. Where would you see me as sitting?

[Satan]

Well, Ezra and Gilly have shared some "similarity experiences" lately. The only difference is that Ezra is occasionally thinking he is valuing. So the connection between Ezra and Gilly is established.

You and Ashton have shared "similarity experiences". Elena found Ashton's description very familiar and you and Elena have said you are like two berries from the same tree. Connection between you, Ashton and Elena is established.

mercutio and Ashton have been mentioned to be "similar" in some ways and both belong to "ENTj or ESTp" group. This establishes an indirect link between Ashton, Elena, you and mercutio.

Now Ezra and Gilly seem a bit distant from this but Ezra is one of the "ESTp or ENTj" people which establishes an indirect link between you, Ashton, Elena, mercutio and Ezra. And through Ezra also Gilly. So there!

XoX your reasoning is sound. I agree, that there are similarities between me and Ashton.

But Elena, on the other side. She seems to take a more educated disciplined approach to things. This confuses my reasoning. And maybe FDG, and Elena have more of a reserved focus, from a more serious disposition than I. Ashton seems to be a bit looser, more like I am. Although I have seen a more serious side from him at times.

Also, I seem to recall that FDG doesn't speak English as his native language. This may also change the way he comes across.

Ezra, and Gilly, well I don't really know what to make of them. They've always seemed somewhat distant to me.

[aestrivex]

mercutio: nobody has a clue who you are. these questions might help:


what kinds of things do you enjoy doing and why do enjoy doing them?
who do you hang out with and why do you hang out with those people?
what would you do if you had all the money in the world and could retire tomorrow?
what are your intellectual interests/hobbies/passions and why?
how has your background shaped you as a person?
is this restaurant run properly?


feel free to answer any or all, or simply tell us about yourself some other way.

[Satan]

I was trying to keep it "neutral sounding" Of course I have my own opinions about them. Some more sophisticated and some less. And it is true that Gilly didn't use to belong to that list but now he is jumping between ENFj and ESTp so...kind of remotely does But he is different in the sense that no one has ever thought of him as a Gamma.

If you try and stay neutral, then you just create ambiguity. Is that the impression that you're trying to create?

[XoX]

If you try and stay neutral, then you just create ambiguity. Is that the impression that you're trying to create?

I'm just warming up Also I'm a bit confused because lately everything seems to be under reconsideration around here.

I'll get back to this at a later time. Gotta go to bed.

[Steve]

It has humored me to find that people are thinking that Gilly is anything else but an ENTp. Like seriously, wtf? Do people forget all of the old days of this forum, and that 50+ page type thread Gilly made where he and Rick were discussing his type for a while, and it was so clear? Do people forget how he and I would speak the same language, and would mutually acknowledge it, and frequently say "no wonder we're identicals" ?

Seriously, wtf.

I'm surprised no-one has questioned my type at this rate. Hm, why do you think that is? What makes me unquestionably ENTp (as I believe I am) to everyone else, while people seem to change the types of others, some of whom were properly typed?

Regarding Mercutio, yeah I'd say he's closer to Ashton in his more free-spirited approach, but he still is the same type as Elena and FDG too, as Ni ENTj. I think what may account for some of the difference is enneagram, and enneagram instinct.

And its ridiculous how people try to act a certain way, and people get fooled enough to question their types. An ESTj trying to act tough (as in the misperceived notion of Se), will not be an ESTp, but they will be an ESTj trying to imitate Se and failing.

An ENTp trying to do the same thing will look like an ENTp trying to act like an ESTp. A person's type doesn't change from trying to embody certain personality traits, remember?

[aestrivex]

I'm surprised no-one has questioned my type at this rate. Hm, why do you think that is? What makes me unquestionably ENTp (as I believe I am) to everyone else, while people seem to change the types of others, some of whom were properly typed?

i don't know or care why other people think what they think, but you certainly seemed sufficiently ILE during your brief appearance at that conference.

[Satan]

mercutio: nobody has a clue who you are. these questions might help:


what kinds of things do you enjoy doing and why do enjoy doing them?

What I do, and what I like are different. I do what needs to be done. What I like is killing small children, having conversations with old women, being amused by small children staring at me, talking about how I want to change the world, laughing at others misfortune. Making lewd remarks to young ladies, and being amused when they give up on fighting back. Pointing at people as if they've done something wrong, then laughing when they haven't done anything, and telling them not to take themselves so seriously.

who do you hang out with and why do you hang out with those people?

Whoever is around. I don't have a lot of standards. As people aren't pissing me off severely, they're welcome. If they're dicks, then do it away from me.

what would you do if you had all the money in the world and could retire tomorrow?

I have this dream, of starting my own school/nursery/training institution. I'd like to start that, and employ some hot young girls, to work for me, live with me, and support me in my endeavours. They'd be expected to take care of me, whilst I take care of everything else.

what are your intellectual interests/hobbies/passions and why?

I quite like those japanese number puzzle things. And if you give me some kind of puzzle, I'll probably end up playing with it a while, and then solve it, and be not quite sure how I did it. My intellect is kind of magical. I don't know how I get things done, they just kind of snap into place.

how has your background shaped you as a person?

I don't really like to think of my past. When people talk about their childhood, I tend to want to talk about killing people, nuclear warfare, and the abolition of the human race.

is this restaurant run properly?

There's no food in front of me. No waiter. So it can't be. On that note, I like it when girls serve me, and go to extra effort trying to please me whilst I sit back. I like the easy life.

feel free to answer any or all, or simply tell us about yourself some other way.

[/quote]

Sometimes I have no idea what the hell I'm doing, and I'm trying to figure it out, and people look to me for direction, and I've got no idea what the hell I'm doing. And I'm like "I don't know what I'm doing" and people can laugh a bit or something. But people are often willing to help me, give me advice, and do things for me. And I kind of don't expect that to be the case, but it just seems to happen. Often it seems like people remember things I've done for them in the past. And I don't even remember. Some people try to keep things balanced, and other people don't really care either way. I don't really care either way. I tend to be nice to people when I feel like it. And help them out, when I have spare energy, or nothing to do. But I do tend to prioritise people, and some people try to "jump" to a higher priority than they're worthy of. And that can irritate me. Like why do you think you should be so special? You're nothing. Y ou're meaningless. You're worthless. And yet they can buzz like flies, encouraging me to hit them. But If I hit people I'm always the one to blame - and I don't want to get involved. For the most part.

[Satan]

of all the types without Se in ego, i would think ESj's can pull off the most convincing Se. id functions are strong. while one isn't as practiced at expressing them as the ego functions - the 8th function is the less subdued of the id functions. (base and personal knowledge/7th are most differentiated so 7th is more ignored.)

additionally, in duals pairs one may use the 8th function well enough to cover for one's dual's POLR (in cases where the use of the POLR is needed.) types with Se as a 7th function are less willing to do that - it's expected the dual has some ability to use their Role function.

i wouldn't bet on the 8th function failing to convince. at least that's what i gather from what's been said on these forums, the wiki, and on Lytov's site.

Why are you even talking about ESJ's? Drop it.

[Satan]

I'm just warming up Also I'm a bit confused because lately everything seems to be under reconsideration around here.

I'll get back to this at a later time. Gotta go to bed.

I like 'em hot and loose, and I like to make 'em drip. Do you like to get wet?

[aestrivex]

What I do, and what I like are different. I do what needs to be done. What I like is killing small children, having conversations with old women, being amused by small children staring at me, talking about how I want to change the world, laughing at others misfortune. Making lewd remarks to young ladies, and being amused when they give up on fighting back. Pointing at people as if they've done something wrong, then laughing when they haven't done anything, and telling them not to take themselves so seriously.



Whoever is around. I don't have a lot of standards. As people aren't pissing me off severely, they're welcome. If they're dicks, then do it away from me.



I have this dream, of starting my own school/nursery/training institution. I'd like to start that, and employ some hot young girls, to work for me, live with me, and support me in my endeavours. They'd be expected to take care of me, whilst I take care of everything else.



I quite like those japanese number puzzle things. And if you give me some kind of puzzle, I'll probably end up playing with it a while, and then solve it, and be not quite sure how I did it. My intellect is kind of magical. I don't know how I get things done, they just kind of snap into place.



I don't really like to think of my past. When people talk about their childhood, I tend to want to talk about killing people, nuclear warfare, and the abolition of the human race.



There's no food in front of me. No waiter. So it can't be. On that note, I like it when girls serve me, and go to extra effort trying to please me whilst I sit back. I like the easy life.



Sometimes I have no idea what the hell I'm doing, and I'm trying to figure it out, and people look to me for direction, and I've got no idea what the hell I'm doing. And I'm like "I don't know what I'm doing" and people can laugh a bit or something. But people are often willing to help me, give me advice, and do things for me. And I kind of don't expect that to be the case, but it just seems to happen. Often it seems like people remember things I've done for them in the past. And I don't even remember. Some people try to keep things balanced, and other people don't really care either way. I don't really care either way. I tend to be nice to people when I feel like it. And help them out, when I have spare energy, or nothing to do. But I do tend to prioritise people, and some people try to "jump" to a higher priority than they're worthy of. And that can irritate me. Like why do you think you should be so special? You're nothing. Y ou're meaningless. You're worthless. And yet they can buzz like flies, encouraging me to hit them. But If I hit people I'm always the one to blame - and I don't want to get involved. For the most part.

irrational EP type. SLE, maybe ILE.

[Expat]

Am I right in taking this as that you personally don't like Ashton, and don't want to be associated as being the same kind of charachter as him.

That is correct, but it's not the whole story. What I mean is that it seems to me that the "Socionix school of socionics" takes Ashton as a "template for ENTjs". If the kind of person Ashton is - both in terms of his personal character and of functional use - is a "typical ENTj" in that "school", then I'm glad not be seen as a "socionix ENTj".

Now, of course, I think "socionix socionics" is a totally flawed and clueless view of what socionics is about.

If there are wide differences between different interpretations of Socionics, then it makes it hard to take any interpretation seriously, unless you're in the key group that acknowledges the source of their system.

It's up to each individual to decide whether or not each individual socionics version makes sense or not. Of course something like socionics - especially in online discussions - allows for wide difference in interpretations. If you meet people "live", then I think statements like "I use no Fe in real life" (even when sincere) can be better checked since people can then see what the person really means.

Now, a "group" is important if you think you should discuss it with people who more or less share your interpretation. Which is not the same thing as blindly following anyone in that group.

And so according to your classical definition. Where would you see me as sitting?

To be honest I haven't really bothered thinking much about that. It's not as if you have participated much here, or as if I had interacted with you much in the chat or elsewhere.

If niffweed knows you better and feel qualified to type you, I daresay that he probably won't be too far off.

[aestrivex]

If niffweed knows you better and feel qualified to type you, I daresay that he probably won't be too far off.

i don't. i'm looking exclusively at this thread.

[FDG]

Regarding Mercutio, yeah I'd say he's closer to Ashton in his more free-spirited approach, but he still is the same type as Elena and FDG too, as Ni ENTj. I think what may account for some of the difference is enneagram, and enneagram instinct.

I'm also European, and Europeans are notoriously midler than Americans and New-zealand people.

[Expat]

Ah, now I saw mercutio's answers to niffweed.

I agree with niffweed.

And if there is a school that thinks that mercutio's answers clearly point towards ENTj, then, obviously, I'm not an ENTj in that school, and fwiw I'm very glad not be one.

[Steve]

I'm also European, and Europeans are notoriously midler than Americans and New-zealand people.

haha yeah

[Ezra]

Well aren't you special.

How does niffweed's comment implied that he is special? He's nothing but a weed that grows in the dirt.

[Ezra]

Ezra, and Gilly, well I don't really know what to make of them. They've always seemed somewhat distant to me.

Far from it. Stick around a bit, and you'll be able to gather enough reason to recognise that Gilly and I are not distant.

[Ezra]

Regarding Mercutio, yeah I'd say he's closer to Ashton in his more free-spirited approach, but he still is the same type as Elena and FDG too, as Ni ENTj. I think what may account for some of the difference is enneagram, and enneagram instinct.

As far as I know, Fabio is a sx-first 7w8. Ashton is also a 7w8. And I could easily see Elena as a 7w8. I bet the latter two are both sexuals, but correct me if I'm wrong, Ashton (lol) and Elena.

And its ridiculous how people try to act a certain way, and people get fooled enough to question their types. An ESTj trying to act tough (as in the misperceived notion of Se), will not be an ESTp, but they will be an ESTj trying to imitate Se and failing.

Are you implying me here? Anyway, this sentence proves you incompetence in dealing with SLEs and LSEs. An LSE is perfectly capable with Se, and would be naturally good at putting on an act and making people believe it.

Plus, please outline your conception of Se for the record.

[FDG]

Ezra, they think I am sp-first because I am calmer. I tend to disagree, but it's not something worth debating.

[Expat]

lol... http://64.233.169.104/search?q=cache...3D9%26t%3D1016

Awesome!

[XoX]

I like 'em hot and loose, and I like to make 'em drip. Do you like to get wet?

merc...couple of things...
1) I'm not female so I only get wet in the rain or in shower
2) F-O-C-U-S, it is your typing thread

For some reason I always get the impression that you live in some kind of fog. Kind of missing all the details. Unable to focus on what is at hand. Also your memory sucks. This makes me think you could be an intuitive type.

Would you describe yourself as static or dynamic? Do you notice a lot of details in the static context around you? Does time almost stop when you move to a new static context? Or are you more like living in a fog,a continuous flow of time, being highly dynamic and missing a lot of details on each static context you happen to bypass while you rush forward toward your goal.

[Satan]

why doesn't Steve get a similar rebuff for his tangent? (which didn't seem accurate, so i threw my own $.02 in)

You pushed it further.

[XoX]

Anyway, I remember arguing with mercutio basically all the time (he would remember me as Ishy), and I think he's SLE (not for that reason though).

I think mercutio is actually kind of similar to Ezra, but that is just a meaningless observation.

Well, perhaps yes. Ezra is just more in your face, making more noise and mercutio is more like silent force... I would describe it like...Ezra shoots you with a machine gun and mercutio more like has this invisible force field around him. Or something. Both seek to establish authority but I sense them to have a somewhat different approach. Doesn't mean they couldn't be the same type.

I'm still interested in mercutio's take on static and dynamic. Whether he sees time as a flow where details get blurry as you rush forward or being very much tied to the current static context seeing even the smallest changes in the environment and reacting to them. Time stops instead of flowing in a dynamic way. Actually I would like to hear Ezra's comment about this too.

I also talked with him a bit in the chat like zillion years ago. I don't think he even remembers. I kind of think ESTp memory of details should be better. He then reminded me a lot of one person I know who I think is MBTI ENTJ. However should the MBTI ENTJ -> socionics ESTp thing hold true then I guess he would be ESTp. This interests me because it could help me type this other person from IRL too.

He one's described how he kind of throws himself against obstacles in order to see how strong they are. He himself interpreted this as weak but valued . He has problems perceiving the strength of things "from a distance" and that is why he has to "hit them" in order to see how they respond. Some people interpreted this as dominance but it was never settled whether dominants perceive the "power" of something "from a distance" or whether they have to sort of physically test it to get a real grasp of it.

But ok. I think I concentrate on my own typing thread now. The static dynamic aspect interests me in both Ezra and merc. I'd think Ashton would describe himself as dynamic but I'm not sure.

[XoX]

But, if I recall correctly, you didn't go by XoX in the chat so its not really a flaw of his memory.

Besides... what has memory to do with type?

Oops. True. I was rarely XoX there Good point. The fact that you did remember it (being type and all that) suggests it is a rather weak argument.