ENTP or ENFP?

[Gilly]

Kim: Thanks for your input (I have to admit, when I saw your name on the top of your post, I was prepared for an opinionated lecture on my lack of , but you pulled through :wink: ); it's good to have a genuine ENFp spin on it. You've provided probably the best reasoning I've seen yet (at least concerning my non-ENFp-ness; not sure how much this quite qualifies me as ENTp, though).

Joe: I think the "sloppiness" has to do with having less Ti; when contrasted with me, I think it's pretty clear that you're subtype, and I imagine that that's where the majority of our differences come from.

Blaze: Thanks...I guess?

[Gilly]

...by the way, I still want more opinions.

[anndelise]

Would I try to figure out my type subjectively? Is that possible? Can anything be determined from biased information other than how people feel about me?

Any ENFP knows that Yes, it IS possible to figure out your own type subjectively. After all, that's pretty much how we figured out our type. "Biased" information is still information to take into account.

Oh, and I gave quite a few reasons why you are not an ENFP on your question in Delta. Those reasons still stand.

[diamond]

Gilligan for myself I had the same confusion between enfp and entp. I don't want to overvalue the importance of knowing your type or anything but the sooner you can own your strengths and weaknesses the better.

I would have to say weaknesses particularly, because those are the first things that can cause the person problems. When weaknesses are known and accepted, it really puts the person in the driver's seat alot more than if they are denying their weaknesses. I am still not sure how much a person can strengthen their weaknesses, but if you know your weaknesses you can minimize their impact quite a bit.

Strengths you don't have to worry about much, other than over using them. For example Ne has only selected uses in most work situations.

Sorry now I'm going off on another tangent. Good luck in your quest for self knowledge!

@disco: love that one!

[schrödinger's cat]

You're not an ENFP. Reason why I think so: from what I've seen, you only accept reasons that are logical and objective. Hunches, impressions, or mere opinions are, from your point of view, pretty worthless. You also hate redundancy: if someone has said something before, then why say it again? - This is how you come across; perhaps I'm mistaken.

Which leads me to another difference between ENTPs and ENFPs. ENFPs are likely to state their own views in a tentative sort of way, mainly because we think that by being categorical we might start off an argument (which we HATE). So we're likely to say: "this is what I think, but I might be wrong", or we'll say, "...so what do you think about this?" and we'll listen to what anyone has to say. Our opinions are open to discussion. Not because we aren't sure about them, but because we're (a) interested in what others think, and (b) it helps to keep the athmosphere kind and cooperative.

From what I've seen, you're more in-your-face, blunt, even abrasive. You don't say "this is what I think", you say "this is what it's like". ENFPs are likely to regard their own views, and everyone else's views, as subjective: but then again, we don't think that being subjective is necessarily a bad thing - many subjective opinions add up to a holistic image of the truth, like pieces of a puzzle. You see the world from that angle, I see it from this angle, and by listening to what each has to say we'll both come to a better understanding of the world as it is. ENTPs seem to think differently: there is ONE objective truth out there, and they're out to find it; and if they feel they've got it and someone else disagrees with what they say, then that other person is not in possession of THE truth and must be treated accordingly ("what you say is total BS" etc). Your priority seems to be "THE truth", while ours is (quite often) maintaining a pleasant social athmosphere.

And if you read this posting and think "this could have been said in fewer words!", then that is another difference between you and ENFPs. ENFPs don't care if someone repeats himself - as long as it's interesting!

Some quotes that support my POV:

I'm going to ignore your flawed logic and wait for someone to provide a reasonable opinion.

Ugh...this is exactly what I didn't want: people coming in and saying "Well I think [insert groundless opinion]." I want a "why."

You obviously don't have anything to say that has not already been said. So, quite honestly, I could care less.

I do care, but only about things that are substantiated.

Kim: Thanks for your input (I have to admit, when I saw your name on the top of your post, I was prepared for an opinionated lecture on my lack of Introverted Feeling...

[schrödinger's cat]

Found another quote:

I'm open to any viewpoints, as long as they're realistic and qualified ... . Just be straight with me. Tell me what you see, how you perceive me... . I'm willing to hear anything, as long as it's realistic.

An ENFP would have been more likely to say:

"I'm open to any viewpoints, as long as they're interesting and inoffensive. Just be fair. I'm willing to hear anything, as long as it's amusing."

@ other ENFPs: correct?

[anndelise]

schrodinger's cat: I agreed with everything you said..up until the last statement about an ENFP more likely saying, "I'm open to any viewpoints, as long as they're interesting and inoffensive. Just be fair. I'm willing to hear anything, as long as it's amusing."

I might think it, but I wouldn't actually SAY it.

[anndelise]

No way you are an ENFp. Even ESTp would be more likely. ENTp wins, even if by default.

Are ENFP and ENTP the only choices?

I've always hated the Rule of Addition in Logic. The one that goes:
x or y
not x, therefore y
(when y hasn't even been discussed as a valid option, nor explicitely the only other choice)

Note: Expat....I'm just using your quote as an example of why I don't think ENFP and ENTP are the only choices. Not saying anything against what you personally said.

[diamond]

No way you are an ENFp. Even ESTp would be more likely. ENTp wins, even if by default.

Are ENFP and ENTP the only choices?

I've always hated the Rule of Addition in Logic. The one that goes:
x or y
not x, therefore y
(when y hasn't even been discussed as a valid option, nor explicitely the only other choice)

Note: Expat....I'm just using your quote as an example of why I don't think ENFP and ENTP are the only choices. Not saying anything against what you personally said.

I think gilligan relates to Ne as dominant, which leaves either enfp or entp.

[anndelise]

I think gilligan relates to Ne as dominant, which leaves either enfp or entp.

I'd have to run through his posts again (omg there's tons!!), I'll have to look for it later (though I doubt it's important enough for me to search through all those posts for it).

But in one of them I recall him mentioning something about Si being strong, (the statement suggested that it was an unconscious easy use of Si), and something about actively using Ne. An Ne dominant doesn't put in effort to use it, it comes unbidden.

In the United States, people taking the tests tend to score higher Ns than they actually are. Our culture values abstract thinking. The tests test which does the tester value, difficult to separate what values, what does naturally, and what puts in effort to do.

Also, the United States values T in men and F in women. (That whole men are from mars and women are from venus bull.) Men taking these tests tend to score higher on T than they actually are. Women higher on F than actuality.

Definitions of individual Functions haven't exactly clearly separated the definitions of each. Similar concepts, using a different word, or even same word referring to different concept, is common in the tests. Not to mention the format of "You are X and do Y. Agree....Disagree" A person can be X and not do Y, or do Y and not be X. Thus further diffusing accuracy from the tests.

Also, descriptions of each of the types includes too much content. And attributes life experiences to each type. For example "XXXX is fun to be with." I would think that ANY person could be "fun to be with" no matter what type they are. And just who defines "fun"?

And finally, identifying with a type description once again places one under the bias of one's culture, and the ideals one has.

All we have left (that I can think of right now) is to take away the content and observe behavior.

[Gilly]

I'm open to discussion of different types; I am, however, quite confident that I'm intuitive. I was REALLY clumsy as a kid, and teachers have always praised my ability to "think outside of the box" (whatever that means...I just see it as finding a different means to the same end). I've also always been aware of that "different"-ness of people who turn out to be intuitive; there's just something in the way that they express their ideas and thoughts that I can really identify with. There's also the fact that my whole family is made up of intuitive types.

[Raver]

I think your definitely an ENTP because you love to argue and your introverted feeling isn't among your main functions and is definitely dominated by your much stronger introverted thinking. You even ask for logical answers instead of emotional ones, which is very ENTP like.

[Gilly]

Good lord...I think it's official.

My Results

The thing I'm confused about is that my Se is better than my Ti, Te, Si, and Fe, which I all consider to be stronger than my Se. Maybe Se/Si questions need to be differentiated more clearly...

[anndelise]

FeSi gets my vote. Which allows for when you T, you Ti, and when you N, you Ne.

Reasons?
1) Except for questions regarding your type, you post a topic with X in mind, and then you seek out examples of X. Not just any example, though. You seem to respond better to concrete examples. This can easily be confused with "being logical". (Not saying that it isn't a form of reasoning)

2) Comments regarding using your Ti or Ne give off an "effort" type feel, and are generally words you say you do, not something you have shown to do easily on the forum.

3) Others have commented (though I haven't actually read you yourself say it, so this may be wrong) on you feeling more comfortable in the Alpha Quad. ESFJ is in the Alpha Quad and is FeSi.

4) You remind me so much of a male ESFJ friend of mine, and how he responded when he did go into forums. He was a great and fun guy outside of the forums as well.

[Gilly]

It's possible, but I don't know how seriously I can see myself as a sensor. I might be an ENTp moving towards an ESFj in terms of personal development, but I don't know about actually being one. I think I'm a bit too spacey, and too inclined to neglect other people without conscious effort.

[anndelise]

It's possible, but I don't know how seriously I can see myself as a sensor. I might be an ENTp moving towards an ESFj in terms of personal development, but I don't know about actually being one. I think I'm a bit too spacey, and too inclined to neglect other people without conscious effort.

Um, sensors are plenty spacey, and J types tend to not realize that they may be neglecting other people. This is mostly because they come in with X in mind, seeking input to support X, often almost not noticing what doesn't support X. This is a common cause of people feeling neglected or ignored, not the intent of the J.

[Gilly]

Neglecting people isn't a J thing when your first function is . ESFj's primary goal in life is to help others; they're called "self-sacrificing" for a reason.

[anndelise]

Neglecting people isn't a J thing when your first function is . ESFj's primary goal in life is to help others; they're called "self-sacrificing" for a reason.

Um, not sure where you got the primary goal in life is to help others bit. None of the ESFj's I've known had that as a primary goal. They were pretty self-centered. Well, ok, maybe not self-centered, more like opinion-centered.

Basically, they take on the opinions of the culture they grew up with (meaning their home/school/interaction culture). This becomes the content of their Fe. For example, if an ESFj's culture growing up centered around helping others, than the ESFj would be focused on helping others.

[Gilly]

http://the16types.info/types-ESFJ.php

[anndelise]

Regarding Oldham's Type Description......I find it to not fit any of the ESFJ's I've known. Admittedly, some of them might like to think they are similar...

Gilligan...when reading descriptions... take them all with a grain of salt. A large grain!

[FDG]

C'mon, Gilligan is NOT an ESFj, or Fe guy. It's not meant as offence, it just is.

[anndelise]

FDG, I'm not saying he is or isn't... just offering an opinion.

I do see FeSi in his posts, with attempts to step into the realm of Ne and/or Ti.

I don't see ENFP, at all, zip zap nada.

Nor do I see his posts and the posts of ENTP's being similar.

*shrugs*

[schrödinger's cat]

lol - So we've succesfully determined what type Gilligan isn't. ...Well, it's a start. "Hi, I'm Gilligan, and I'm not an ENFP."

[Gilly]

Better than nothing.

Perhaps we can do this by elimination. Here are the types that I'm now quite sure that I am NOT:

ESTj (No chance in HELL)
ISTj (" ")
ISTp (I'm not anal enough, and I'm not Barry Bonds)
ISFj (Uhhh...I'd LOVE to see an argument for this.)
ENTj (My mom's one, and I've met 'em before. Not me.)
INTj (Not enough Ti)
INFj (No Fi)

The higher possibilities (the way I see it):

ENTp (see above 1,000 posts)
ENFp (lol)
INFp (see below)
ENFj (" ")
ESFj (" ")
ISFp (" ")
INTp (My Ni tests as low, but I'm probably biased by knowlege. I use Te a fair bit; not enough to be a main function, but 2nd I can see)


And the lower possibilities:


ESFp (Not enough Se)
ESTp (Err...a sensory ENTp? Not too sure.)



Ok, my explanation for the Fe Xi types:

I've noticed more and more that I do use Fe quite a bit. I don't use it for decision making really, but it does tend to creep up on me. It has probably affected my decision making more than once in my life.

In addition, I felt like I should consider the Fe types in light of the recent proposal of my ESFj-ness.

[Joy]

sorry to disappoint you... but ENTps do not exist

[Gilly]

How silly of me.

[Joy]

is 87 the year you were born?

it seems ENTps are not very creative in their selection of screen names...

[Gilly]

pfshew[hgpar

Talk about MEEE, not my screen name.

[Joy]

look, I don't entirely know why I think you're an ENTp

I just do... let's call it

[Gilly]

Yeah. It's gotta be the .

[schrödinger's cat]

You, an ISFP? hmmmmmmmmyyyy..no. No. I mean, no. No way.

An ISFP might conceivably value logical, objective reasoning, lack of redundancy and all that stuff almost as much as you do. True. But when people posted stuff you thought was redundant, subjective and not rational enough, you reacted very strongly. You seemed to be indignant and angry, like you'd been insulted. It seemed to be very, very important to you. That's not really what ISFPs are like.

And ISFPs wouldn't use such strong, confrontational terms. They usually hate conflict just as much as they hate pressuring people. Other types seem to quite enjoy an exchange of blows, like it's stimulating and makes them feel fully alive because it gives them a chance of using all their powers. Perhaps you don't actively enjoy an exchange of blows, but you don't seem to try and avoid it either.

*through clenched teeth* And you're not an ENFP, Gilligan. You just say this to make us argue with you. (Which is a very ENTP thing to do... )

[Gilly]

Ok, no ISFp. But I'm not ruling out INFp: Betas are NOT conflict avoidant.

[Gilly]

You know what, this is stupid.

I don't know why I keep bringing up these threads about my type. I don't really have serious doubts about my type that really make sense. I know I'm an ENTp; I guess I just wanted people to talk about me Plus, trying to consider all these different types and functions is starting to tax my brain. The more I question myself, the weaker I feel. So I'm going to stop questioning myself.

Fucking hidden agenda.

*kills *

[Joy]

we know

it's all good...

[Gilly]

*kills joy*

DON'T PRETEND LIKE YOU UNDERSTAND ME!!! ARRRGGHHHH

*end 2nd emo tirade of the day*

[Joy]

yeah ENTps really hate that!!!

[Joy]

I'm allowed. We're identicals.

[Gilly]

Uhh...No? You're my Benefactor. REMEMBER?

[Joy]

I don't want to play this game. It sounds boring. Can I at least pick a different type?

[Creepy-Diana]

.