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Thread: Model Φ and Phitypes - machintruc's research

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    Default Model Φ and Phitypes - machintruc's research

    Model Φ is a model which measures the physiology of the brain (serotonin, norepinephrin, and dopamine levels).

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...del_%CE%A6

    I didn't invent that typology. Psychologists call this "the Big Three". It's just a very simple manner to represent them. There are 27 variants, that each socionic type may or may not have.

    It's pretty hard to know if it's actually socionics or not, because I think physiology has some role in IM, even if it's not IM itself.

    I think it's more aesthetic and meaningful to think of "-+0" or "+0+" instead of "subtypes or crosstypes", because subtypes actually come from physiology.

    For example, according to such theories, I'd be an LII, - subtype. Or call it initial subtype, D subtype, black logic subtype or ENTJ subtype. Whatever.

    ENTj subtype is relevant to 0+-, but it's also relevant to -+0 or -++. That's why subtypes may be confusing. For example, think of what dual-type-compliant theorists may call ESTj-ENTj.

    I won't add official descriptions for Model Φ yet. I think it'd be more meaningful if descriptions emerge.
    Last edited by machintruc; 03-20-2008 at 06:00 PM. Reason: broken link because 2shared can't keep a very light file by themselves, because they're fucking stupid

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    I have recently discovered a law for correlation between Socionics and Model Phi that stipulates :

    Each physiological group of a single level of a single neurotransmitter contains either 38.2%, 50%, or 61.8% of each Reinin trait.

    I'll call this "Law of 62"

    For example :

    ?-? 50% of Result types
    ?0? 38.2% of Result types
    ?+? 61.8% of Result types

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    it's all bla-bla without reliable typing.
    This is theory. However, Phitypes are exactly the same as described by Enneagram.

    Model Phi is just Enneagram adapted to the Socionics thing. i.e. some sort of bridge between Socionics and Enneagram, to make Enneagram more IM-like and more "scientific-like".

    S-/S+ : Low/High motivation for Inputting
    N-/N+ : Low/High motivation for Processing
    D-/D+ : Low/High motivation for Outputting

    To convert an Etype to a Phitype, follow these charts :

    S- : Four, Six, Eight
    S0 : One, Three, Five
    S+ : Two, Seven, Nine

    N- : Preservational Variant
    N0 : Social Variant
    N+ : Intimate Variant

    D- : Four, Five, and Nine
    D0 : One, Two, and Six
    D+ : Three, Seven and Eight

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    Default Hypotesis on IM types/Phitypes correlations : Law of 62% (works for Etypes as well)

    Model Φ Thread : http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=16360 (if you want to convert your Etype to a Phitype, go here)
    Dichotomies WS page : http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...pe_dichotomies


    This law asserts that, for each group of S-, S0, S+, N-, N0, N+, D-, D0, and D+ :

    - There is golden ratio distribution with some Jungian or Reinin dichotomies (approximately 61.8% versus 38.2%)
    - There is even distribution with other Jungian of Reinin dichotomies (50% versus 50%)

    Jungian foundation (or first-tier dichotomies)



    Correlations found so far : (may be updated)

    S- group :
    62% of Introtims

    S0 group :
    62% of Logic

    S+ group :
    62% of Extrotims
    62% of Ethics

    N- group :
    62% of Introtims

    N0 group :
    62% of Process

    N+ group :
    62% of Extrotims
    62% of Result

    D- group :
    62% of Introtims
    62% of Intuition

    D0 group :
    62% of Rationals

    D+ group :
    62% of Extrotims
    62% of Irrationals
    62% of Sensing

    This is hypothesis. Maybe one day we'll find some symmetrical table of Phitype/Sociotype correlations. i.e., what variants are plausible for each TIM or not.

    No misinformed retards here please. Thank you.
    Last edited by machintruc; 03-23-2008 at 08:05 PM.

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    Default Towards an information processing-based psychic theory, and a new typology.

    Psyche has three levels. They differ from classical levels. I'll call them :

    1. Immediate Psyche : the immediate or "live" experience - i.e. now
    2. Soft Psyche : short-term memory - contains "working" data ; easy to forget
    3. Hard Psyche : long-term memory - contains permanent or semi-permanent data and algorithms ; hard to forget

    I suggest the psyche has four Information Processing Components :

    Input : the process of information movement from Immediate Psyche to Soft Psyche.
    Output : the process of information movement from Soft Psyche to Immediate Psyche.
    Storage : the process of information movement from Soft Psyche to Hard Psyche.
    Processing : the process of information movement from Hard Psyche to Soft Psyche.

    We're calling them I, O, P and S. They relate to the W, X, Y, and Z processes of Model C.

    An approximate example to illustrate them :

    Inputting : "2 + 3 = _" is on your immediate psyche, and you're transfering it on your soft psyche.

    Storage : "2 + 3 = _" is now on your soft psyche. Communication with hard psyche is established and the "2 + 3 = _" string is processed by hard psyche in a semi-deterministic manner.

    Processing : "2 + 3 = _" is transformed into "2 + 3 = 5" or simply "5" and the information goes to the soft psyche. There's a risk of forgetting at this moment.

    Output : "5" is definitely accepted as output, and the human being usually responds by the physical process of writing "5".


    Each component is caracterised by two parameters :

    - Strength : quantitative aspect of doing it, i.e. doing it with large amounts of information
    - Flexibility : qualitative aspect of doing it, i.e. doing it in an appropriate or compliant manner

    Each component may be :

    1. Strong and Rigid
    2. Strong and Flexible
    3. Weak and Flexible
    4. Weak and Rigid

    For example, I have this information processing component pattern :

    Input : Weak and Rigid
    Output : Strong and Rigid
    Storage : Weak and Flexible
    Processing : Strong and Flexible

    Rules for such patterns :

    1. Each component has a different property pair. One process is Strong-Rigid, one is Strong-Flexible, one is Weak-Flexible, and the last is Weak-Rigid. Components are ordered like that. For example, my component 1 is Output, my component 2 is Processing, and so on. (This rule would reduce possible patterns from 256 to 24)

    2. Socionic types may have different information processing component patterns. For example :

    - SEI -0+ tends to have S1 I2 O3 P4, and SEI --- tends to have I1 S2 P3 O4.
    - LSI --+ tends to have O1 S2 P3 I4, and LSI 0-0 tends to have S1 O2 I3 P4.


    I don't know how much the viable patterns are (are they 24 ? 16 ? less ?). Besides, I don't know how they are correlated to Sociotypes or Phitypes.

    This is not a model yet. It will emerge soon with your help.

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    This will not take off. It's more complex than socionics. It requires extreme simplification and an ESE to bring it into concrete, user-friendly terms.

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    RECENT RESEARCH: E-Score

    Pick a Phitype, add 1 for each PLUS, and subtract 1 for each MINUS. You obtain the E-Score.

    The E-Score is an integer between -3 and +3.

    For example, as a 0+-, my E-Score is 0.

    I recently found that :

    IP types range between -3 and 0.
    IJ types range between -2 and +1.
    EJ types range between -1 and +2.
    EP types range between 0 and +3.

    All other types should be considered very rare or impossible.

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    No. Just... no.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Default -+0 appreciation

    I somewhat appreciate them, you know... Not because they're friendly, because they're not friendly. Not because they're wise, because they're not wise.

    I appreciate them because they're stubborn devil's advocates. Besides, they're really funny to watch.

    List of -+0's :

    - Vladimir Zhirinovsky (EIE)
    - Adolf ****** (EIE)
    - Louis de Funès (EIE)
    - Mel Gibson (SLI)
    - Chuck Norris (LIE)
    - Che Guevara (EIE)
    - ER's Robert Romano (LSE)
    - ER's Abby Lockhart (ESI)
    - ER's Victor Clemente (EIE)
    - Third Watch's Maurice Boscorelli (LIE)
    - South Park's Garrison (EIE)

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    Default Description of cognitive categories coupled with S-groups

    EP, S- : impulsive, unpredictable, bad-tempered
    EP, S0 : competing, driving, down-to-earth
    EP, S+ : friendly, playful, outgoing

    EJ, S- : choleric, reckless, aggressive
    EJ, S0 : pragmatic, charming, leading
    EJ, S+ : empathetic, sociable, zealous

    IP, S- : moody, pushy, pessimistic
    IP, S0 : stand-offish, cold, aloof
    IP, S+ : adaptable, attractive, peaceful

    IJ, S- : angry, loud, quick to anger
    IJ, S0 : perfectionistic, tough-minded, directing
    IJ, S+ : straight, gentle, firm

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    Default Offensive descriptions of Phigroups (or Phitype groups)

    S-GROUPS

    S- : You're a totally messed up, depressive redneck. You're always in confrontation with others, because you're such a reclusive loner, and because you don't have any friends. Even your acquintances think you're an asshole. You like to drink, to take drugs, and to fight in bars. Besides, nobody likes you. It's pretty much like the Unabomber is cooler than you. Just be less hostile, you autistic fucker ! It's not that hard...

    S0 : You're totally stupid. You think you're a computer or a machine in a world which is full of retards. You're arrogant and think you're always right. Can't you imagine being wrong, just for once ? Not everyone is retarded ! You're a bossy dictator, and you like to discuss on complex and technical subjects that nobody gives a fuck.

    S+ : You're an empathetic retard with a low IQ. You're obsessed by licking others' ass and helping others, and you think you don't even exist. You often have playful behaviours, such as trying to get kicked out from Wal-Mart. You like everyone and everything, and because of that you're often disappointed with relationships and with life, because nothing's like what you expected. You're friendly and sociable, but you're definitely useless.



    N-GROUPS

    N- : You're an quiet fatass, and you don't fear anything. You're a conservative bureaucrat who watches TV eating junk food all day. You talk less than you do. Just be more expressive ! Everyone will like you for doing that, believe me.

    N0 : You're obsessed with belonging, and you're ready to everything to belong to groups, even to kill yourself. You're also very dependent-minded. You're a Communist when others ask you so, and you're a Nazi when others ask you so. You don't have opinions, and you're a stupid conformist.

    N+ : You're anxious and doubtful, and you always have to think of something. You often have eccentric behaviours, in order to get others' attention. Besides, you're counterphobic, and counter-everything. You're a loud chatterbox who doesn't do anything. Nobody can't even understand you, because you stutter a lot. You're a paranoid and have insomnia.



    D-GROUPS

    D- : You're such a lazy avoidant leecher. Why are you so lazy ? Just move on your ass ! Just do something. You think everyone will do everything for you because you're physically attractive or something. You suffer from chronic fatigue.

    D0 : You're such an obedient slave. Even intimate relationships are based on domination and submission. You're a workaholic who follows rules blindly, and think laws are the centre of the world. You think that love and slavery are the same thing.

    D+ : You're such a megalomaniac retard, and you're obsessed with power. You think you're God, except that you're not God. Having an high dopamin level isn't a brave exploit. Remember. You are narcissistic, and think the world is a jungle or an orgy. You think others have respect for you because you're the #1 in everything, except that it's not respect, but ass-licking. You think you're an achiever, but believe me : you're a total failure.
    Last edited by machintruc; 08-07-2008 at 04:21 PM.

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    Fantastic. I love the description of myself that comes by combining S+N+D+. I guess this also confirms the truthfulness of this description:

    D+ : You're such a megalomaniac retard, and you're obsessed with power. You think you're God, except that you're not God. Having an high dopamin level isn't a brave exploit. Remember. You are narcissistic, and think the world is a jungle or an orgy. You think others have respect for you because you're the #1 in everything, except that it's not respect, but ass-licking. You think you're an achiever, but believe me : you're a total failure.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    S- : You're a totally messed up, depressive redneck. You're always in confrontation with others, because you're such a reclusive loner, and because you don't have any friends. Even your acquintances think you're an asshole. You like to drink, to take drugs, and to fight in bars. Besides, nobody likes you. It's pretty much like the Unabomber is cooler than you. Just be less hostile, you autistic fucker ! It's not that hard...

    N0 : You're obsessed with belonging, and you're ready to everything to belong to groups, even to kill yourself. You're also very dependent-minded. You're a Communist when others ask you so, and you're a Nazi when others ask you so. You don't have opinions, and you're a stupid conformist.

    D- : You're such a lazy avoidant leecher. Why are you so lazy ? Just move on your ass ! Just do something. You think everyone will do everything for you because you're physically attractive or something. You suffer from chronic fatigue.
    Perfect.

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    Default Phitype-Sociotype Combinations : how many are there?

    This is quite an unresolved issue, due to its complexity. I still think it's useful to understand variants, because it's a way to avoid mistyping and misdescribing. For example : would you describe EIE's as social and bubbly, or as hostile and dramatic ?

    Besides, what TIM-Phitype combinations are bound to what TIM-Phitype combinations ? For example, as a LII 0+-, I think I'm bound to ESE S+D0, rather than ESE S0D+, because S0D+ phitypes are like they're not really interested by you, and are obsessed by success and self-image. They're quite smart, friendly, but they're BORING, and lack the bubbliness of S+ types.

    S+D0 types are friendly, bubbly, and docile. You know, I'm interested in leading others, and I think such docility that S0D+ types lack is "complementary" or "dual". ESE's aren't blindly docile, though, unlike EIE's.



    I think, there are somehow 9-10 phitypes for each sociotype, because then, we would have 144-160 combinations. This somehow coincides with the Dunbar's Number, which is 150. But this "150" is only a prediction. Maybe the real Dunbar's Number is more like 144 or 160. Maybe it means that human beings aren't seeking only duals, but one dude/chick of each combination.

    A Phitype is equivalent to an Enneatype with its Variant. There are 27 Phitypes.


    I'm good to any clues for such pairing system : tables, correlations, opinions, or such.

    For those who ask documentation for Model Phi : http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...del_%CE%A6

    For those who ask documentation for Duncan's Number : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunbar's_number
    Last edited by machintruc; 04-06-2008 at 06:52 PM.

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    Default Phitypes and Leadership

    Social Orientation (from most assertive to least) :

    S- : autocratic, pushy, confronting, brutally honest, devil's advocates, expect submission, bound to difficult milieux such as prisons or schools, take unpopular decisions easily, very light or absent rewarding, mistrusting, expect adaptation from others, very demanding, treat human beings as material resources, break laws, good buyers but bad sellers.

    S0 : authoritarian, firm, bossy, straightforward, serious, expect docility, bound to regular milieux such as corporate organisations, light rewarding, shape others, demanding, semi-adaptive, win-win oriented, treat human beings as service providers, obey laws and norms, bureaucratic, average competence to sell and buy.

    S+ : democratic, friendly, conformist, country club leaders, socialite, accomodating, expect active participation, don't take their pushy behaviours seriously, unable to take unpopular decisions, heavy rewarding, adapt themselves to others, not very demanding, laxist, treat human beings as human capital, prefer to respond human interests rather than laws, good sellers but bad buyers.


    Physical Orientation (from most assertive to least) :

    D+ : overdoing, go-getting, driving, achieving, competing, wanty, workaholic, ambitious, gross motor, faster, quantity-based production, able to do very complex tasks in an unknown environment, more a controller than a driver if Introtim, physically restless.

    D0 : doing as adequate, compliant (or just superficially compliant if S-), follow bureaucratic procedures, balanced fine motor and gross motor, do things with little ambition, avoids complex tasks, may like routine.

    D- : underdoing, simplify tasks, fine motor, lazy, slower, quality-based production, lack ambition, do things only if strong interest, see bureaucracy and competing as redundant, avoids overwhelming (except if S-), more a starter than a doer if Extrotim, easily tired.


    S+ to S- : low to high motivation to confront others
    D- to D+ : low to high motivation to do tasks

    Being S+D- doesn't mean you're unable to lead. It just means that you're a Gandhi-like leader. I don't like Gandhi's doctrine, but as a leader, he wasn't bad...

    Besides, sorry for not having found the role of norepinephrin levels.

    For more information on phitypes, click on my phitype in my sig.

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    S+D+ most definitely

    Often, when I'm doing a task very fast and-or I'm being first in a race etc, and I see that somebody else that is S0 or S- is behind all tense and wanting to reach me, I just let him go and take the second or third place, because I don't really want to cause a fight.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    S+D0 is probably me...

    Are phitypes related to socionic types?



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
    - Blair Houghton

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    S+D0 is probably me...

    Are phitypes related to socionic types?
    They're related to enneagram types and correlate with socionic tpes. If you're really S+D0, it means you're E2, and then, not likely LII.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    They're related to enneagram types and correlate with socionic types.
    Oh - what's the relationship between enneagram type and phitype?



    LII-Ne

    "Come to think of it, there are already a million monkeys on a million typewriters, and the Usenet is NOTHING like Shakespeare!"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Oh - what's the relationship between enneagram type and phitype?
    1 = S0D0
    2 = S+D0
    3 = S0D+
    4 = S-D-
    5 = S0D-
    6 = S-D0
    7 = S+D+
    8 = S-D+
    9 = S+D-

    SP = N-
    Social = N0
    Intimate = N+

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    1 = S0D0
    2 = S+D0
    3 = S0D+
    4 = S-D-
    5 = S0D-
    6 = S-D0
    7 = S+D+
    8 = S-D+
    9 = S+D-

    SP = N-
    Social = N0
    Intimate = N+
    Works with me.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    I'd be a 5 or a 9 I think.

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    I've previously thought of myself as a 5w6 sx. But I can see myself as a 000 as well. I'm more comfortable with 1 than 2, and I can't see myself as D-. S+ might be my philosophy rather than what I do in practice.

    So right now I'm thinking my phitype is 00+.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    I've previously thought of myself as a 5w6 sx. But I can see myself as a 000 as well. I'm more comfortable with 1 than 2, and I can't see myself as D-. S+ might be my philosophy rather than what I do in practice.

    So right now I'm thinking my phitype is 00+.
    Then you can't be LII. I haven't found a single LII-3 for now. LSI's, LIE's, but not LII's.

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    I'm 4 or 5.

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    Quote Originally Posted by machintruc View Post
    Then you can't be LII. I haven't found a single LII-3 for now. LSI's, LIE's, but not LII's.
    Make that 0+0... or whatever S0, D0 and N+ makes. Sorry, I got the letters out of order. I'm definitely not a 3.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Brilliand View Post
    Make that 0+0... or whatever S0, D0 and N+ makes. Sorry, I got the letters out of order. I'm definitely not a 3.
    That's cool, I hate Threes.

    If you're 0+0, you should consider being LSE or LIE or such.

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    Default S- phitypes and their relation with the morbid

    Besides the fact that S- phitypes are by their nature confrontational, sad, harsh, repulsive, asocial, and the fact that I don't like them, S- phitypes have a gift.

    This gift is their ease to handle the morbid. They deal with everything that is bad per se. Their life philosophy is built on conflict.

    S- phitypes think that the world is acting bad, because it's full of superficial liars, ass-lickers, weak-minded conformists, left-winger retards, sex perverts, or such. The world is BAD. But the worst thing of the world is : death.

    S- phitypes are fascinated by death, even if they don't like it. They're just fascinated by it. They feel that if they are able to understand death, they can really feel alive.

    S- phitypes are very passionate about life. They think that nobody's actually more alive than them. On the inside, they like to feel bad, tormented or such. They are emotionally very sensitive, and somewhat abuse their emotional system by deliberate emotional overwhelm. They seek sadness, fear, or anger. On the outside, they are conflict-seeking. They conflict even with their friends, because they subconsciously think that nothing's more friendly to them than confronting them (but I personnally think it's stupid). Because of this, they are usually accused of being unfriendly or hateful.

    Everyone likes S- phitypes, because nobody like them. They are truthful creatures that don't seek popularity, unlike S+ phitypes. They think that exact data and superficially good conduct isn't enough to make the world truthful. They think that despite Evil is bad per se, Evil shouldn't be ignored by having a blindly optimistic (S+) or neutral (N0) attitude, because otherwise, Evil would win.

    All this to mean that : low serotonin level isn't an illness. Being S- doesn't mean you're Evil. It just means that you're Evil's advocate.

    (For those who don't know what S- means : it corresponds to the Reactive Triad of Enneagram, i.e. types 4, 6, and 8)

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    Default Correlations between Phitypes and DISC profiles

    http://www.discusonline.com/UDISC/default.htm

    (these correlations are approximate)

    --- S/D
    -0- S/C
    -+- S/I
    --0 D/C
    -00 D/S
    -+0 D/I
    --+ D/C
    -0+ D/C
    -++ D/I
    0-- C/D
    00- C/S
    0+- C/I
    0-0 C/D
    000 C/D
    0+0 C/I
    0-+ D/C
    00+ D/C
    0++ D/I
    +-- S/C
    +0- S/I
    ++- S/I
    +-0 I/C
    +00 I/S
    ++0 I/D
    +-+ I/C
    +0+ I/D
    +++ I/D

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    What is the point of DISC again?

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    D: EJ (or maybe ExTx)
    I: EP (or maybe ExFx)
    S: IP (or maybe IxFx)
    C: IJ (or maybe IxTx)
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    -++ D/I
    Anyways, it appears to be accurate for me.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    I/D is accurate for me I think
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    I/D is accurate for me I think
    D corresponds to the choleric temperament, btw. And I remember what you've said about them.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    I would be my primary in that classification.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    D: EJ (or maybe ExTx)
    I: EP (or maybe ExFx)
    S: IP (or maybe IxFx)
    C: IJ (or maybe IxTx)
    I don't think so.

    I can't remember what I came out as. High on Dominance; the rest I can't remember.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I don't think so.
    Why's that?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Why's that?
    Well, for instance, I think that Se leading individuals can score quite highly on Dominance, but that doesn't make them EJ. Likewise, I wouldn't be inclined to see Si creatives as particularly high scoring on Dominance.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Well, for instance, I think that Se leading individuals can score quite highly on Dominance, but that doesn't make them EJ.
    I cannot see a SEE being D > I.

    Likewise, I wouldn't be inclined to see Si creatives as particularly high scoring on Dominance.
    I would.

    (It's not "Dominance", it's D.)
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Basic Motivation:

    D: challenge, choices, control
    I: recognition, approval, popularity
    S: security, appreciation, assurance
    C: quality answers, excellence, value


    Environment Needs:

    D: freedom, authority, varied activities, difficult assignments, opportunity for advancement
    I: prestige, friendly relationships, opportunities to influence others, opportunities to inspire others, chance to verbalize ideas
    S: an area of specialization, identification with a group, established work pattern, stability of situation, consistent, familiar environment
    C: clearly-defined tasks and explanations, sufficient time and resources to accomplish tasks, team participation, limited risks, assignments that require planning and precision


    Needs to learn that:

    D: people are important, relaxation is not a crime, some controls are necessary, everyone has a boss, verbalizing conclusions helps others understand them better
    I: time must be managed, too much optimism can be harmful, listening is important, tasks must be completed, accountability is imperative
    S: change provides opportunity, friendship isn't everything, discipline is good, it is alright to say no, being a "servant" does not mean being a "sucker"
    C: total support is not always necessary, thorough explanation is not always possible, deadlines must be met, taking calculated risk can be profitable, there are varying degrees of excellence

    Corresponds (imo) to:

    D: enneagram 8, EJ, ExTx, Se valuing (most like LIE)
    I: enneagram 3 and 7, EP, ExFx (most like SEE)
    S: enneagram 2 and 6, IP, IxFx, weak Se (most like EII)
    C: enneagram 1 and 5, IJ, IxTx, weak Ne (most like LSI or possibly ESI, because C's are negativists)
    from the other recent DISC thread
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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