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Thread: Another sort of rant

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    Default Another sort of rant

    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:

    I want to better understand the difference between beta Fe and Alpha Fe rather than Alpha Fe is being loud and obnoxious and Beta Fe is just all over pleasing to see. Also, were you saying that ISTj's are partial to Beta Fe or both types overall. I say this because my best friend is that ISTj, and I am 99% sure he likes me because of the Fe I always give him, among more wholesome things such as trustworthiness and respect.
    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Are all people superficial? *sigh*

    Maybe she didn't feel comfortable and was trying to get by?

    I dunno.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are all people superficial? *sigh*

    Maybe she didn't feel comfortable and was trying to get by?

    I dunno.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:



    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    So what is the question here? Why does an ISTj value ? Why does an ISTj engage in awkward small talk? I can think of a number of possible answers to what I think you are trying to ask, but I want to be sure first.
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:



    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    Are you saying this behavior is... bad?

    From what you describe it's similar to something I'd do if I felt somewhat of a social obligation (not necessarily in a bad sense, though) but didn't feel much like being open myself, for whatever reason. Perhaps not as outgoing, but same sort of behavior. But perhaps I misunderstand you.

    As Logos suggested, perhaps you could clarify what it is you're saying or asking.

    Quote Originally Posted by Loki"
    Are all people superficial? *sigh*
    No.

    My ESFj friend is one of the deepest people I know. Just today she read me something she wrote at 12 and it sounded like something a 60 year old could have written.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Are all people superficial? *sigh*

    Maybe she didn't feel comfortable and was trying to get by?

    I dunno.
    no.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    no.
    Well could you provide any clarification as what we are supposed to be answering?
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    I'm sorry, my thread is unclear, and my question seems like the typical anti-Fe thing.

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    So what is the question here? Why does an ISTj value ? Why does an ISTj engage in awkward small talk? I can think of a number of possible answers to what I think you are trying to ask, but I want to be sure first.
    Yeah, I guess that is a good place to start.


    One of the issues I had with this person, which was probably an unhealthy person, was that their cheery atmosphere and attempts at "being very nice" were in such contradiction to other things they did, "behind the scenes". This person is very guarded about "her business", and she is actually a person who was involved in domestic violence against her husband. And I don't understand why she expends so much effort on pleasantries and such, and how they mean so much to her, when she treats people, albeit in private, in certain ways. In more malicious ways. And how she expects these things to be totally separate.

    But mostly how you can still value and act pleasant and be nice, when, your true character - who you are when no one else is around, in intimate situations - is very bad.


    Please please please - I am not saying all Fe types are this way. I am not saying Fe types are terrible people, I know this is an unusual case with a person who is unhealthy. But I don't understand some things about it. Maybe I ought not too, really. Maybe I ought to just leave it at "this person is messed up".



    - why this was connected to Fe/istj/beta is that it is all very superficial to me. I don't understand how someone can value that soooooo much - that pleasantries. Put sooooo much effort into it, and think it means so much, in spite of other things that goes on. I don't understand how that can be valued so much more than other things.

    Which takes me back to this quote that someone else said to me today:
    "I say this because my best friend is that ISTj, and I am 99% sure he likes me because of the Fe I always give him, among more wholesome things such as trustworthiness and respect."

    I don't understand how that can be so important to someone.



    again, this is not super clear. I will try to explain it more.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    no.
    Sorry. Not trying to attack you or be hard on you.

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    and please don't think this is about me trying to make myself sound like one type or another.

    I think that I might be this way because I do not value Fe. Other people see her and think she is nice because she is pleasant and stuff. And yeah, she is good at that. No problem. Putting that sort of effort into people is a good thing.

    What bothers me is when it is done in a way that almost tries to "compensate" for other qualities, like your real character. Like it is an act that is trying to cover up something else, misdirection.



    I don't understand why people "try" so much. Hmm.... that is still not so clear.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Sorry. Not trying to attack you or be hard on you.
    No, I understand. There is a lot of bad socionics going on, and I could very easily be contributing to it here. I'm trying to be clear about something, but I know I am not doing a very good job at the moment. I am distracted by a few things.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    I'm sorry, my thread is unclear, and my question seems like the typical anti-Fe thing.



    Yeah, I guess that is a good place to start.


    One of the issues I had with this person, which was probably an unhealthy person, was that their cheery atmosphere and attempts at "being very nice" were in such contradiction to other things they did, "behind the scenes". This person is very guarded about "her business", and she is actually a person who was involved in domestic violence against her husband. And I don't understand why she expends so much effort on pleasantries and such, and how they mean so much to her, when she treats people, albeit in private, in certain ways. In more malicious ways. And how she expects these things to be totally separate.

    But mostly how you can still value and act pleasant and be nice, when, your true character - who you are when no one else is around, in intimate situations - is very bad.
    In which case, I am not sure if the question of why an ISTj values is all that adequate of a question if the ISTj in question is unhealthy in mind.

    Which takes me back to this quote that someone else said to me today:
    "I say this because my best friend is that ISTj, and I am 99% sure he likes me because of the Fe I always give him, among more wholesome things such as trustworthiness and respect."

    I don't understand how that can be so important to someone.
    Simple enough. The LSI appreciates someone who can read, maintain, or shape the emotional atmosphere that the LSI craves. So if a Fe type is present, then an LSI does not have to expend energy to subconsciously try to obtain it. LSI (and LII) do and will engage in that awkward small talk as a means of trying to provoke (though not maliciously) a conversation in which they act merely as the listener, which is why that one LSI does not reveal much. They are wanting others to do the talking and those questions are asked as a means to try and maintain that conversation for as long as possible. Someone was commented that Ti is like a blackhole for Fe, and that seems to be quite true in my experiences. Fe-types almost provide a sort of raw and unfiltered data that only Ti types love to process.

    What bothers me is when it is done in a way that almost tries to "compensate" for other qualities, like your real character. Like it is an act that is trying to cover up something else, misdirection.
    I do not think that this relates to , but can be found exerted amongst all information elements amongst all types.
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    sidebar:

    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Simple enough. The LSI appreciates someone who can read, maintain, or shape the emotional atmosphere that the LSI craves. So if a Fe type is present, then an LSI does not have to expend energy to subconsciously try to obtain it. LSI (and LII) do and will engage in that awkward small talk as a means of trying to provoke (though not maliciously) a conversation in which they act merely as the listener, which is why that one LSI does not reveal much. They are wanting others to do the talking and those questions are asked as a means to try and maintain that conversation for as long as possible. Someone was commented that Ti is like a blackhole for Fe, and that seems to be quite true in my experiences. Fe-types almost provide a sort of raw and unfiltered data that only Ti types love to process.
    What is that like for gamma and delta; how does an Fi type try to draw Te out of people, or, a Te type try to draw Fi?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ((This is not well written, and it is incomplete. More later.))


    Speaking with someone about Fe, this came up:



    There are occurrences where this happens and it really baffles me. Today I was seeing an ISTj, who was even being "outgoing", but just talking pleasantries here and there to everyone she knows. She knows a lot of people. But it was all so....... superficial? She does this often, and yet it is like meaningless conversation. I do not understand how she values it so much.

    She asks you how your day went, but when she does it, it is often either a pleasantry to try to seem nice, a question to find out more information from you (and ask more questions...), or something along these lines. Whenever you ask her these things it is "oh I'm doing fine".


    It is a very interesting look at Fe/Ti. Because the answer and response scheme is totally based off of emotional value, in this case anyways.
    To be perfectly honest, I would probably respond positively and in kind. Not that I enjoy small talk type questions that much, but I try to talk on other people's levels. Certainly doesn't sound like a bad person really. It's all in the details, I guess.
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    I can understand that, munenori.

    Perhaps I should not have made any socionics correlations here.

    Ok, the following has to do with this specific instance: I just have a hard time taking "pleasant small talk" seriously, or enjoyably, when the person I am talking to has done things that revolt me. I just don't understand how someone can really think that making a lot of effort on the "PR" scale can account for serious personal issues. I don't get how that rationalization takes place. And what bothers me most is the idea of "that's none of your business". Like, thinking that if people don't know about what goes on, and they just see you smiling and saying nice things to them, then that is ultimately something that is good. That you can be at peace in that way. I don't understand that.

    Yeah, even if that sort of interaction is "what you value", or if it makes you smile or be happy, it doesn't really matter. I mean, an extreme example, what if this person killed someone and was still acting this way - does it in anyway change the fact that she killed someone? No. (It almost happened, actually). So to me I just wonder what this person is trying to pull. The intentional deception of "private matters", the focus on having a positive image in spite of questionable actions, and the focus on trying to have a bright, cheery course of interaction while, when it is me, her, and her husband are all in the car together, there is almost no talking and the air is full of tension*. I don't understand how someone could act that way. It seems totally fake to me, and it bothers me a lot.
    The tension has to do with 1) the interpersonal issues and control issues the couple is dealing with and 2) my contempt for the situation, my personal desire to distance myself from the said person, and most of all, my extreme dislike to try to pretend like nothing is wrong and just be happy or cheery


    I stared this thread to try to figure out if there was any socionics reasoning here, beyond the clear issue that the person in question is in an unhealthy state.


    Perhaps this thread ought to be moved to Anything Goes and just be a rant thread. Reading the "beta Fe" niffweed thread, yeah, I see some things there, but, I don't want to point to a "bad example" and say "this is Fe valuing!", etc. That is to say I am not sure how much socionics value can easily be extracted from this thread.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Well what's your problem with it UDP, relally. It's small talk, it can be pleasurable. The other person has done something bad and you don't like him-her? Fine, don't talk to them, but it's not like criminals aren't happy ever, either.

    IMFD, I've had similar experiences with an ISTj teacher, even a college ISTj teacher was similar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Well what's your problem with it UDP, really. It's small talk, it can be pleasurable. The other person has done something bad and you don't like him-her? Fine, don't talk to them, but it's not like criminals aren't happy ever, either.

    IMFD, I've had similar experiences with an ISTj teacher, even a college ISTj teacher was similar.
    My problem is that putting so much effort into PR work when you yourself are being a terrible person to someone else "in private" baffles me. I don't understand how you can rationalize that for yourself.

    Apparently there are people who think I am foolish for not doing the same (as in constantly working my image), so if it is just a matter of differences than so be it.

    Why it bothers me is because it is a theatrical display that has effects of trying to promote a certain "personality" or display certain qualities of character, like kindness, pleasantness, concern for others, etc - and yet these are not really the true values of the person. It seems totally fake. It seems like a put on. To me, that person is lying.


    I can't stand that emotionally drawing voice, so "pleasant" and obviously contrived. So much so that should you not respond in the same way, you are automatically "rude". And then a few seconds later, when no one else is around, that entire demeanor changes, and the cold, calculating, fixated person returns. I don't like difference. The person's personality is entirely dependent on who we are around. Yes, we all act differently somewhat depending on who we are with, but such drastic changes seem unhealthy, and definitely not someone I feel comfortable around.


    Eh, forget it. This is just being a rant about someone in particular.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    I don't really know to what my reaction to this sort of situation would be attributable, being creative myself.

    I generally feel uncomfortable making smalltalk. This is particularly noted in cases where I just don't want to get too close to someone and would actually prefer they remain an acquaintance. Hearing details about someone's life when I don't feel I have much in common with them implies they're going to expect me to be receptive to future smalltalk. Expectation... and being "nice" all the time just feels false. I'm not always in a frame of mind to talk small, and don't want to feel obligated if I'd rather not. And yet, I also don't want to be rude. In most cases, I'll just show the minimum interest and excuse myself as soon as I see an opening.

    I actually relate to what UDP is talking about in terms of "pretense". I've been in situations (esp. recently) where I know details about a situation and have to pretend like I don't. I hate keeping up a facade, but I do so because I don't want to betray a friend's trust. On some level it does rather sicken me. Ie: I have a friend whose gf cheated on him, but they're still "together". I don't really understand this; it feels like he's wanting to pretend like nothing's changed, but I can't see how this kind of betrayal of trust can just be overlooked. It's a problem for me because I don't respect her, but can't show that.

    Have often been in these kinds of situations where I want to support someone I care about, but just can't support their choices. Causes a great deal of self-conflict.
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    Some excellent points have been brought up here.

    idk, it just seems like their seeking is separate from everything else, you can be a total bitch to people who "wrong" you in some way, but you can still enjoy pleasant conversation.

    In my opinion your example of the seeking and the abuse are two entirely different things.
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    Yes, Fe seeking and abuse are two separate things.

    My rant should have just been focused on disaster of seeing something that is good - being nice, pleasant, sociable - being juxtaposed to something that is disturbing.


    To use the same formula for another type,
    heh, it would be like an ESTj abusing its spouse but still being extremely loyal and committed, and still acting committed and taking joy and basing esteem on being committed, in spite of the abuse. (not quite the same thing, but close I guess)

    Or any type that is unhealthy or a bad person but still demonstrates a positive side to their dual seeking functions, or superid block.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Ok, UPD, I have a question for you. Do you see people as inherentally "good" or "bad"? If they were a murderer, for example, would that overshadow all their other good qualities? Would you care about what drove them to be a murderer? For example, they murdered the tax guy because their kids were hungry, or something.....I know that's a stupid example. But you can't honestly have any sort of respect at all for them if you know they've done something terrible, regardless of the many reasons they might have for doing it?
    maybe this comes down to belief in 'free will'

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Ok, UPD, I have a question for you. Do you see people as inherentally "good" or "bad"?
    No

    This is not what I am talking about...

    If they were a murderer, for example, would that overshadow all their other good qualities? Would you care about what drove them to be a murderer? For example, they murdered the tax guy because their kids were hungry, or something.....I know that's a stupid example. But you can't honestly have any sort of respect at all for them if you know they've done something terrible, regardless of the many reasons they might have for doing it?
    My point is, don't act like my best friend - and don't you dare try - when you're treating someone close to me like dirt, behind my back or behind anyone else's back.

    I'm saying I don't give a damn at all whatever effort you put forth towards me or anyone else - doing that it is quite sickening, honestly - if you are doing terrible things SIMULTANEOUSLY to someone else. If you are still treating someone like a pile of dirt, regardless of how much you try to hide it, or try to cover it up*, then whatever effort you put towards me being super nice or trying to win my or anyone else's favor is inherently disgusting to me.


    Now, if someone has ceased this 'terrible behavior', and is trying to move past that, then so be it, I can respect that. If you have stopped acting in that way (as in, stopped abusing your spouse), and then try to rebuild relationships and become a new person - that's great. But until you stop that negative behavior (as in this case that I am referring to), then it is relatively pointless to try to be friendly to me. I can still try to respect you as a human being, but if you are still acting in terrible ways, I just cannot extend myself and support you as a person or with my time.


    * If you DO try to cover something up, and try to prevent me from knowing or seeing what is going on, then you absolutely, instantly, irrefutably begin losing my respect. I cannot tolerate that, only if you really have some amazingly good reason. But when you knowing go out of your way to cover up or hide the truth, and try to present an image or situation as other than what it is, that just drops all sorts of respect for you. The more you intentionally try to distort the truth, the more negative a light that puts you in, from my perspective.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    But would you have a problem with the person not getting along with others? Like just being horribly mean to someone else (not necessarily treating them like dirt) but still being nice to you?
    I am not quite sure what you mean.

    The question is why someone is being nice to me and treating other people poorly. If they are trying to get something out of me, then yes, I have a problem with it.

    The fact that someone just appears to be pleasant towards me is only so influential.


    But I am not sure what you really want me to comment on - I don't understand what you are saying in your quote. Why would someone be mean to someone else (how could you do that without treating them like dirt anyways? doesn't being horribly mean fall under treating someone like dirt?)... it still goes back to why.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Yeah, so?

    I'm not sure what your point is.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dolphin View Post
    Well, wasn't that your question? That you didn't understand why certain people treat certain others badly while treating others well?
    Umm........ no.


    I didn't have a question.
    My "why" bit was indicating that the reasons "why" someone is doing something is much more important to me than the appearance of how nice they are to me, or anyone else.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Yes, Fe seeking and abuse are two separate things.

    My rant should have just been focused on disaster of seeing something that is good - being nice, pleasant, sociable - being juxtaposed to something that is disturbing.


    To use the same formula for another type,
    heh, it would be like an ESTj abusing its spouse but still being extremely loyal and committed, and still acting committed and taking joy and basing esteem on being committed, in spite of the abuse. (not quite the same thing, but close I guess)

    Or any type that is unhealthy or a bad person but still demonstrates a positive side to their dual seeking functions, or superid block.

    UDP this whole situation sounds really bad. I think that this is not, and should not be, a socionics issue. I think this person is just bad.

    My dad is LSI, my mom is EIE. Sister is ESE. I am around Fe ALL THE TIME. It is (really)annoying, and sometimes problematic for me in terms of communication issues, but Fe is not manipulative if the person expressing it is healthy. My dad never comes off as fake when he uses Fe and I am really Fe sensitive. He doesn't act one way in front of some people to put up a front, and then differently when he is alone with, say my mom, or my sister or me, even if he is mad at us for something.

    From what you say about personality changing so drastically depending upon who they are around, to get specific (positive) emotional responses to them, while acting in opposition to this in private, this person sounds very manipulative, and kind of scary actually. Please try and stay away if you can!
    EII 4w5

    so/sx (?)

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