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Thread: More IM element musings

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default More IM element musings

    I was going to add this to the "What the functions are" thread, but it ended up being so long, I decided to stick it by itself.

    Anyway, I was trying to get at the IM elements and what they are. It will take multiple posts.

    My own remarks are in italics. Things not it italics were NOT written by me (see provided links for their sources).

    -------------------------------------------------------

    = internal statics of objects
    = external statics of objects
    = external dynamics of objects
    = internal dynamics of objects
    = internal dynamics of fields
    = external dynamics of fields
    = external statics of fields
    = internal statics of fields

    objects: things that can be observed, studied, and discussed apart from the subject (observer) *Objective?*
    fields: things that are perceived through the subject by means of feelings and cannot be studied apart from the subject. Can also be viewed as "interrelationships between objects." *Subjective?*

    internal (qualities): abstract?
    external (qualities): concrete?

    static: rest (I would say unchanging, fixed, unconditional)
    dynamic: motion (I would say changing, in flux, conditional)

    Overall source of the above: http://www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml

    -------------------------------------------------------

    (static) perceives outward sensory data projected by objects. Unless objects change their appearance significantly, the impression will not change.
    (dynamic) perceives internal reactions to sensory data (from objects). Each perception of the same thing can be different depending on the observer's changing internal state.

    is like the reaction or feeling of what is perceived by in a way. For instance if you're eating macaroni and cheese... yes, it has certain qualities to it that can be perceived by : It's yellow/orange, the noodles have a certain shape and texture, etc. But how it actually tastes and how you react to its taste is in the realm of . And if you could have the exact same bowl of macaroni cheese multiple times throughout the day, it would/may taste different to you each time (even though its qualities have not changed). Why it tastes differently to you at different times is because *you* are affecting the property of its taste. How it tastes is completely subjective and dependent upon who is tasting it and when. There are multiple objects involved here: the macaroni and cheese, you, your tongue... to name a few. Their interaction or "interrelationship" yields data. And, note, this data is not *fixed*, hence it is dynamic.

    Also, both and are focused upon *concrete* things here, hence they are about *external* qualities.

    As a disclaimer, I used macaroni and cheese and noodles as examples of "objects," but objects in the Socionics sense are *anything* perceptible in "objective reality." For instance, the velocity at which the earth orbits the sun is also an object. How many people died of lung cancer in 1998 is an object as well. All these things can be seen, studied, observed (apart from the observer), unless you really nitpick at it .

    Also, sorry for oversimplifying Si yet again.


    Overall source/reference for the above: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ic_and_dynamic
    Last edited by inumbra; 01-20-2008 at 06:50 AM.

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    (static) perceives inherent potential in objects. Objects don't tend to change their nature much over time, though new circumstances can reveal hitherto unnoticed aspects of that potentiality.
    (dynamic) perceives internal reactions to external potentiality. Today the possibilities might seem inviting and favorable, but tomorrow they might produce a sense of foreboding or despondency.

    is the realm of everything that isn't but *could be.* All of the *abstract* potentials, possibilities, etc. inherent within objects are perceived by . It has an abstract notion of the "essence" of something, which is how it sees what that thing can be. It perceives reality through a prism in a way, seeing the potential realities that could emerge out of the present one, or the different perspectives from which to view reality. In this sense, it sees contexts. But there is nothing personalized about it. The potential of an object is not a subjective thing that depends on the observer of the object (Ne). But how you "feel" about its potential *is* (Ni). By "feel" I do not mean in the emotional sense. is the subjective sense of what is perceived by . It's one thing to have a sense that certain things have the strong potential to unfold in a particular way. It's another thing to have that sense register in your mind as a feeling of anticipation, suspense, impending doom, foreboding, etc. Also how you feel about it is dependent upon *you* the subject (a telltale sign that we're looking at "fields" rather than "objects").

    Quote Originally Posted by bad example
    : "At this rate, it seems things will start piling up very fast. I have a sense of it accelerating."
    : "It's all starting to fall on my head, it's building up to capacity, faster and faster, it will burst and completely overwhelm me. I feel a sense of impending doom."

    : "There's a potential way to slow it down, to channel it through something else as well, to keep it from overloading." (Still static, just uncovering a new potential in what already was; "it" has not changed at all.)
    : "The weight is being lifted slightly, there is a light at the end of the tunnel, shining through the rubble. I see a way. The worst of the storm has cleared." (Dynamic as in the "feeling" about "it" has changed, though "it" in and of itself has remained the same.)

    "It" could be something like your workload stretched out over the next few months.
    (static) perceives logical interrelations between objects (i.e. fields), which by definition belong to a certain class or location, unless the point of reference is changed.
    (dynamic) perceives what those objects are doing and what is being done with them. One and the same object can be used effectively or ineffectively.

    When you are aware that something is (logically) inconsistent, that's . It builds a classification system of how things are connected (again, logically), and is then able to theorize about things outside the system, by rules of what does and doesn't logically follow from the system it has already established. Things that don't conform to the system are seen as contradictions, felt as inconsistencies, and if there are enough of them the system itself will have to be changed. But the system is always trying to get at "objective reality" (or an idea of it?). If the system changes it's not because reality has changed, but because the system has been modified to more precisely reflect reality (hence static). What theorizes *is* subjective in the sense that it's arbitrary. To start the system, a point of reference is needed, things need to be set that other things can be seen as relative to. There are a myriad ways to classify the information logically, so the system chosen reflects the subject classifying it as much as it does what it is being classified. What is classifying is the data perceives (I know this isn't the best way to say it, but I'm trying).

    seems to perceive events... it perceives what is happening... "facts." If we distill it from everything else, especially from , it can't see the "objects" that can see, but it can see what they do, the events that transpire. What the objects do is in a state of flux. Example: An orange is a certain kind of fruit, it has certain physical characteristics that it shares with all oranges, but certain things happen to it if I leave it on my counter. As time goes on it starts to shrink, change color, smell bad, etc. Alternatively, I can peel it and eat it. There are things that I can do to it. "Loki peeled an orange at 9:59pm and ate it over the next half hour" is . There were some objects involved, and that's what happened with them.


    Overall source/reference for the above: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ic_and_dynamic
    Last edited by inumbra; 01-20-2008 at 07:05 AM.

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    (static) perceives connections of a subjective, emotional nature that exist between objects (i.e. fields). These feelings arise gradually and change little until a significant disruption occurs.
    (dynamic) perceives how objects are interacting on an emotional level. One and the same object can interact very different with a stable set of other objects depending on a variety of factors.

    ...

    Overall source/reference for the above: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ic_and_dynamic

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I seem to have run out of steam.

    Perhaps later.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    (static) perceives connections of a subjective, emotional nature that exist between objects (i.e. fields). These feelings arise gradually and change little until a significant disruption occurs.
    (dynamic) perceives how objects are interacting on an emotional level. One and the same object can interact very different with a stable set of other objects depending on a variety of factors.

    ...

    Overall source/reference for the above: http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...ic_and_dynamic

    -------------------------------------------------------

    I seem to have run out of steam.

    Perhaps later.
    Are you trying to inform the Joys of the forum about this, or the rest of us? Because, unless you're going to add new insight, there is really no value to a restatement of that which we already know.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Are you trying to inform the Joys of the forum about this, or the rest of us? Because, unless you're going to add new insight, there is really no value to a restatement of that which we already know.
    Do you just mean that last post or the whole thread? The last post I wanted to include with the one before it, but I can only include 20 "imgs" per post and it exceeded that... I was thinking of filling things in there later, though I suspect I may never...

    As for the whole thread, it may just be stating the obvious... and I apologize for that. Mainly I wanted to see if anyone thought it was way off target, or irrelevant, etc. as I still don't have a solid sense of this stuff.

    Edit: I was trying to synthesize these terms together... not really provide new insight. I mean at first glance things like the "external statics of fields" means nothing to me.

    "Inform the Joys of the forum?" Eh? What's up with this Joy thing?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you just mean that last post or the whole thread? The last post I wanted to include with the one before it, but I can only include 20 "imgs" per post and it exceeded that... I was thinking of filling things in there later, though I suspect I may never...

    As for the whole thread, it may just be stating the obvious... and I apologize for that. Mainly I wanted to see if anyone thought it was way off target, or irrelevant, etc. as I still don't have a solid sense of this stuff.
    If that's how you see the IM elements, then you're on level with the rest of us. INFps usually pick this stuff up very easily.

    "Inform the Joys of the forum?" Eh? What's up with this Joy thing?
    ...It's impossible to get through to Joy because she endlessly deprecates her Ne and is very upfront in saying it doesn't matter to her. She's trying to understand something that is, essentially, the total reverse of her thinking. She literally drains all the Ne out of the theory, something you simply cannot get away with in socionics.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    ...It's impossible to get through to Joy because she endlessly deprecates her Ne and is very upfront in saying it doesn't matter to her. She's trying to understand something that is, essentially, the total reverse of her thinking. She literally drains all the Ne out of the theory, something you simply cannot get away with in socionics.
    And often Ti as well.
    "Alpha Quadra subforum. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy. We must be cautious." ~Obi-Wan Kenobi
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    what is perceived as the and in the theory?

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