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Thread: Fi, Fe and morality

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Default Fi, Fe and morality.

    Do you see any connections between morality styles and vs. valuing? For instance it sometimes seems to me that valuing may tend to go more with moral relativity, where as valuing may go along more with moral standards and convictions... the morality brand being more whimsical and changeable; the brand being more fixed.

    Already this isn't quite working as I described... but something does seem to be different. Like the tendency of to appear more judgmental for instance... ? But I suppose can also appear that way.

    Thoughts?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Do you see any connections between morality styles and vs. valuing? For instance it sometimes seems to me that valuing may tend to go more with moral relativity, where as valuing may go along more with moral standards and convictions... the morality brand being more whimsical and changeable; the brand being more fixed.
    no no no no no no no.


    it's easiest to assume no correlation, but the morality practiced differs on socionics grounds, not on kant-esque philosophical bullshit like this.


    it's very easy to think about morality itself as being differentiated along the lines of Fe/Fi; that's the most reasonable categorization you could possibly make when talking about this with respect to socionics.

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    I'm with Niffweed on this. The criterion for acceptable Fi is that it does not engender unacceptable Fe. If a person's conduct creates rage, hatred, fear, etc. then that's not good; certainly an argument could be made that it is unethical, and an ISFj would probably take issue. Acceptable Fi at the very least does not create more strife; exemplary Fi, that which INFjs value, raises the bar of ethical conduct and with it, creates a higher level of Fe than previously existed.

    A noteworthy example of the relation of Fi to Fe can be seen in the way that J.K. Rowling has used her Dumbledorf character to change attitudes about gays. Dumbledorf is presented as a wise man who although having some failings, is good at heart and cares about his students. Now we are told that this gentle character is, despite his goodness, is gay. What does that mean? It suggests that being gay has nothing to do with a person's strength of moral character. By offering the possibility of this character as a gay man, people are compelled to look at the ethical potential of gays more favorably; tension against gays is reduced, and the level of positive feeling for them (+Fe) has room to grow. I cannot say if she meant to create this state through Dumbledorf from the get-go or whether it was just an opportunity that offered itself, but as an INFj, we should not put it past her given the scope of ethical reward she stood to attained by it. INFjs are very good at engendering speculation, and then moving to affirm one possibility over another to create an ethical impact, once the discussion has matured.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    For instance it sometimes seems to me that valuing may tend to go more with moral relativity, where as valuing may go along more with moral standards and convictions... the morality brand being more whimsical and changeable; the brand being more fixed.
    I think the morality or ethics of irrational types whether from or quadras seem more whimsical and changeable while those of the rationals seem more fixed and of stronger conviction in general. I do not think ISTjs appear whimical in their "morality" or that ENFps seem particulary fixed about it. That or maybe it just really depends more on the individual.
    Last edited by Megan; 01-19-2008 at 07:07 AM.
    Socionics: XNFx
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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    I like to think of myself as amoral, but I'm not. I'm actually very principled. And I can only argue philosophically for so long, before it all comes down to "I do this just because it is the right thing to do, because I say it is the right thing to do".

    I think morality can spawn from not just Fi, but from Ti as well, and even Ni. I think it's fundamentally an introverted function issue. So Ti and Fi types are far more likely to place great emphasis on morals than any of the other types.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Morality, right and wrong, is not type related. As some have suggested, how one manifests it is, perhaps. But not whether one is or isn't. Anyone, of any type, can be good or bad.

    There is so much more to a person than socionics type. To try to tie everything to this theory is to severely limit yourself.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    i can't see that...
    Can't see what?
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    like what are the extras that are not explained by the theory?
    Well, right and wrong, to start. Experience is another big one. Taste, culture, upbringing, physical characteristics or limitations, skills, education... That's off the top of my head.
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    Just because Socionics calls and "ethical" functions doesn't mean they are the definite functions that deal solely with the traditional ethics and morality. Ethics is just a name plopped onto the functions, a name just like internal dynamics of fields or external stereokinetics of super-id flux.
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    so it's basically how you fit into a social system of humans?
    ... Your question does not make sense. "It" what?
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    Most of what people consider to be a "Fe value" when it comes to morality is actually a Ti value.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    To compare Fe to Fi is to compare apples to oranges. The real comparison should be made between Ti and Fi.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra
    "I do this just because it is the right thing to do, because I say it is the right thing to do".
    That's interesting. It would seem that your Fi relies on your self-determined Te, which arises from your niche way of relating to others. (Si) So you think that ethics should rest on the means by which people's instincts coexist, right?

    Pardon me for a moment...

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    To compare Fe to Fi is to compare apples to oranges. The real comparison should be made between Ti and Fi.
    ...Yes, so tragic.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-20-2008 at 12:49 AM.

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    Landlord of the Dog and Duck Subteigh's Avatar
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    I think it's easier to compare a red apple with a green apple than it is to compare an apple with an orange...presuming you know what 'red' and 'green' mean, otherwise you're fucked.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Morality, right and wrong, is not type related.
    Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    As some have suggested, how one manifests it is, perhaps.
    This is what I was trying to get at.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    Anyone, of any type, can be good or bad.
    Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    There is so much more to a person than socionics type.
    Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Minde
    To try to tie everything to this theory is to severely limit yourself.
    I'm not trying to tie everything into it. I'm expressing a curiosity.

    Quote Originally Posted by Quirk Satellite Div
    Just because Socionics calls and "ethical" functions doesn't mean they are the definite functions that deal solely with the traditional ethics and morality. Ethics is just a name plopped onto the functions, a name just like internal dynamics of fields or external stereokinetics of super-id flux.
    Duh.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mikemax
    To compare Fe to Fi is to compare apples to oranges. The real comparison should be made between Ti and Fi.
    I don't see why there should be a limit about what we can compare or be curious about.

    Sorry, I can't say I'm not guilty of this myself at times... but there seems to be a tendency here to be overly presumptuous or to state the obvious.

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    Let's go to fairyland Minde's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    Duh.

    This is what I was trying to get at.

    Duh.

    Duh.

    I'm not trying to tie everything into it. I'm expressing a curiosity.
    Why are you responding like this? Apparently, since we seem to agree, I was not talking to you. What I said was mainly directed at Ezra.
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    "Fairy Tales are more than true; not because they tell us that dragons exist, but because they tell us that dragons can be beaten." - G.K. Chesterton

    "Have courage and be kind." - Cinderella's mom

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    The Iniquitous inumbra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minde View Post
    Why are you responding like this? Apparently, since we seem to agree, I was not talking to you. What I said was mainly directed at Ezra.
    I don't know. I think I'm being touchy today. Sorry. :/

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