Si, Se and physical appearance and other questions

[marooned]

I have noticed that criticisms of people's appearance or awareness of people style in dressing, or that kind of thing is often associated with ?

Why? Since it's outward physical characteristics isn't that more ?

Or is it because it's a particular subjective *reaction* to these outward physical characteristics?

And why is associated with an aesthetic sense?

I'm confused about all this appearance stuff and why it's associated with any of these IM elements (or rather which elements which appearance things go with and why).

If someone criticizes someone else's appearance because it somehow offends their aesthetic sensibilities, is that , , , (they don't "like" it), or what?

Oh wait, also, if values comfort why would it be concerned with appearance? (Unless certain appearances somehow make it uncomfortable?)

Thoughts?

[aestrivex]

i've always understood it to be most closely related to Se. obviously it will manifest in different ways over different types, becuase there tends to be a lot of variation in the way that different types deal with Se-related matters (that was totally completely redundant, wasn't it? yes it was very totally completely redundant.)



Si can sometimes associate itself with feeling comfortable in strange, dressed-up outfits, but doesn't necessarily do so. my dad for example (see his thread; i think he's SLI) makes absolutely sure he's comfortable but does nothing to respond to the external demands of the environment. i was asking him once if what i was wearing to some kind of interview was acceptable and he told me about a time when he had a job interview at carnegie hall wearing shorts, because he refused to participate in the absurd game of making himself look good at his own expense. he didn't get the job but apparently he didn't want it anyway, as he had taken the interview without being sure exactly what the job entailed or something.

basically that was the wrong answer, at least to my problem.


but anyway Se is certainly more about external appearances and external demands whereas Si is about internal comfort and internal needs.

[FDG]

Depends on the individual, really. There isn't even a strong relationship to sensing preference, even though sensing preference might give the ability to be better at it with more ease.

[PotatoSpirit]

I think dressing is influenced by many functions. And even more so by culture... but anyways, imo:

Si is able to decide what goes well with what, and what looks good in general. All kinds of clothing can look good and Si doesn't really care what fashion says. Si also cares about how the clothes feel, which might take attention away from how they look.

Se wants to look good, because of the social advantage it can gain from it.

Fe dresses paying attention to how it will impact other people.

[Ezra]

I think dressing is influenced by many functions. And even more so by culture... but anyways, imo:

Si is able to decide what goes well with what, and what looks good in general. All kinds of clothing can look good and Si doesn't really care what fashion says. Si also cares about how the clothes feel, which might take attention away from how they look.

Se wants to look good, because of the social advantage it can gain from it.

I agree with this. I'm sometimes conscious when I go out of what I'm wearing, and of what goes well together, although I'll never conform to fashion. I generally don't like to look bedraggled, because it gives off a bad impression. Plus, think of others around you. They don't want to see some piece of shit that smells like crap associating itself with them. So take a shower and wash your hair before you go out, wear simple but stylish clothes, wear a nice cologne, and brush your teeth or get a drink (alcohol destroys bad breath and replaces it with something that can be better or worse depending on the drink). This is what I call good etiquette. Good manners always count if you want to earn any kind of respect.

[marooned]

So... a couple other things...

I remember in that thread about Expat's avatar way back when, there was mention of how she (can't recall her name) in the avatar was "neglecting because she hadn't brushed her hair enough or something. Why is that neglecting ? (Unless I missed the point.)

Recently Discojoe made a comment about Elena's avatar saying something about the way the picture appeared or was taken... and how her choice of it shows not-so-good ??? (subjective opinion)

I was curious about both these things when they came up but didn't say anything at the time.

[FDG]

Se wants to look good, because of the social advantage it can gain from it.

Fe dresses paying attention to how it will impact other people.

Reverse the two, and I am in agreement.

[PotatoSpirit]

Continuing my silly personification of functions:
Ti and Fi might dress according to whatever rule they accept as the right one.
Te might have learned that you need to dress in some way to get the desired result.
For Ne and Ni I have no idea.

Reverse the two, and I am in agreement.

Interesting, elaborate?

[FDG]

I would connect social advantage more with Fe and impacting other people more with Se, even if the two objectives are obviously intertwined.

At least, given that the group of socials is half composed by people that have Fe in the ego block and the group of pragmatics is half composed by people that have Se in the ego block, and given that the first is generally more concerned about acquiring social advantage and the second more concerned about impacting other people (ime?), I'd tend to say that it follows that social advantage-seeking behavior can be linked more to Fe rather than Se? Still it might depend on what we define as social advantage.

Fi IME dressed either according to which dress they have an emotional attachment towards (yes, they do have attachment towards things, too, apparently) or according to how people they have connections with would like them to dress. I suppose this can be considered as a subset of your more general "rules".

[PotatoSpirit]

Ok so the word "social" was misleading. And yes, very intertwined.

How about Se wanting to look good, so that they can use that edge to get people to do what they want?

And Fe wanting to provoke a response from people?

[Ezra]

That's what I was thinking more a long the lines of. I know what you mean, Fabio, about Fe being social advantage, but I was referring more to getting what you want. The only way you can do this is to look and smell and taste appealing.

[Joy]

Se: it's beautiful
Si: it's pleasing to the eye (or more so, "it pleases the eye")

[Joy]

Isn't that the same thing?

When we're talking about information elements, we never use one at a time. The things I mentioned are related to each other. Perhaps a better way of looking at it would be to look at specific examples.

Se: Her face is symmetrical. (external statics of objects, or physical attributes)
Ti: One side of her face is the mirror image of the other side of her face. (external statics of fields)
Si: Looking at her face makes me feel pleasant. (external dynamics of fields, physical cause and effect relationships)

Se: The dress is purple. The scarf is yellow. (external statics of objects, or physical attributes)
Ti: Purple and yellow are complementary (across from each other on the color wheel) colors. (external statics of fields)
Si: Wearing that dress with that scarf will make the scarf look like a brighter yellow. (external dynamics of fields, physical cause and effect relationships)

Or something like that.

[marooned]

I was trying to think how an aesthetic sense might differ from an one.

I was thinking that could be concerned with appearances in terms of the ideas that the appearance conveys to (in that sense :Ni could also be concerned with it).

<incomplete thought>

[discojoe]

That avatar is god awful and if you can't see it, well, make like Heath and take some Ambien.

[marooned]

That avatar is god awful and if you can't see it, well, make like Heath and take some Ambien.

That's great... but... what does that have to do with ????

[Ms. Kensington]

in my experience, all Si-ers look amazing in a pretty effortless way. They know what looks harmonious and won't wear something that is unharmonious. This doesn't mean they can't wear clashing patterns, the overall effect will be harmonious. I also tend to associate Si people with comfortable clothing

Se people I associate with trendy/flashy clothing or else preppy or sporty clothes.

I think Ne people can dress trendy too but they don't have Si.

Ni people I don't see wearing trendy or flashy clothing. In some ways they resemble ISxp to me because it's not forceful. An INFp can wear a rude Tshirt but he'll still look unassuming in it.. haha. not very informative.. but yeah i see their dress as reflective of their quadra.. INFps might be more likely to wear a loud horrid tshirt and an INTp i could see more likely to wear something classic and conservative, even if a little quirky.

Fe I associate with lots of colors . I see many an IxFp with rainbow mittens or socks, or colorful hats. no matter what their ages..

[marooned]

in my experience, all Si-ers look amazing in a pretty effortless way. They know what looks harmonious and won't wear something that is unharmonious. This doesn't mean they can't wear clashing patterns, the overall effect will be harmonious. I also tend to associate Si people with comfortable clothing

But, Ms. Kensington! How does the dress of these Si-ers stem from their valued Si?



I'm not trying to be daft or a broken record... I just truly honestly don't understand how as an IM element leads to effortlessly dressing in harmonious ways.

[Ms. Kensington]

well i think that the bit about it being harmonious would connect to someone with Si. They aren't going to be surrounding themselves with something that will upset their homeostasis or internal sense of sensory peace.

I strive for that "look" myself but tend to always look at and feel comfortable in something "weird" or with tons of busy-ness going on.

[marooned]

^Okay. Hmm... some fuzzy things have actually fuzzed into place just now. I shall ponder this later.

[Ezra]

Se: it's beautiful
Si: it's pleasing to the eye (or more so, "it pleases the eye")

I'm not sure about that.






Or, maybe, I am...