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Thread: Elena, ENTj or ENFj? Let's settle it here

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    Default Elena, ENTj or ENFj? Let's settle it here.

    This discussion has been going on for quite a while. So do YOU think Elena is ENTj or ENFj? Does she mainly rely on or in arguments? You may suggest other types too but as the discussion has lately revolved around these two types I see no reason to bring up any others. So let's concentrate on those.

    I am very interested to see who currently stands on which side of the fence and why.

    If possible give a short reasoning and state from which Quadra you are. If you wish you can say whether you think she shares your Quadra values or not (especially regarding the / axis)

    My current opinion: ENFj

    Reasoning: She often refers to her impressions () as a source of information for her and is somewhat forceful in her opinions (). Matches both ENFj and ENTj. However I haven't seen her providing any kind of factual information about anything whatsoever (if you have, please post a link). She _never_ supports her impressions with facts. That does not suggest dominant in the least. Instead she actively keeps avoiding giving out information. It is a weak and sensitive function to her. An example, when asked to provide information to support her view she replies: "I asked you first lol. So, answer please?". There is plenty of examples of this kind of avoidance and "game playing". It suggests a > preference. She has also made some references to how she values consistency of thought and this would suggest valuing type but ENTjs also value consistency to an extent (but never if the price to pay is factual inaccuracy). Then, she rather spontaneously uses ad hominem argumentation as one of her main "weapons" which does not suggest ego block logic (a logical fallacy is unlikely to be chosen as a primary "weapon" by a logic dominant type). Finally (even if Reinin is not that good of an argument) she seems taciturn >> narrator.

    About Quadra values, I don't think I share Quadra with her. She would have to be rather unhealthy member of my Quadra if it were the same. It is possible that I partially share Quadra values with her though. As in being in her wing Quadra.

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    Her overall tone is extremely Fe > Te.

    I can't say more than that without being accused of making accusations. I guess I'll just add that I find her language and what her reasoning and motivations appear to be from my perspective rather baffling.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Her overall tone is extremely Fe > Te.

    I can't say more than that without being accused of making accusations. I guess I'll just add that I find her language and what her reasoning and motivations appear to be from my perspective rather baffling.
    agreed. Fe preference is the only thing that's clear to me, but i have not been following the debate very closely.

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    There is of course another possibility, which - as per my understanding - is the present dominant view in Socionix (which I haven't read in ages, but I have caught glimpses of it in recent discussions in the wiki and from what others have told me).

    Elena is Te and ENTj. Those who see her as Fe>Te are just wrong, because they have no understanding of what an ENTj is. Why? Because there are no ENTjs - or even Gammas - in this forum. They have all migrated to Socionix.

    So what is going on here? Well, I believe that one explanation goes further -- I am an ESTj who somehow managed to convince most people here (well, those who think my views are correct to some extent) that I am ENTj and that I understand anything of socionics. I have managed to con all of those people into misunderstanding socionics, while those who truly understand what Gammas, ENTjs, etc are, are all there in Socionix.

    I'm not sure how Rick fits into this -- I guess he also wasted his time studying socionics since he managed to get it all wrong, too (or I managed to brainwash him).

    Anyway, something for you to consider.
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    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    I disagree. According to what she's described about herself so far, I think that Elena being an ENTj is entirely plausible. I think that a lot of what is being interpreted as "her Fe" is nothing more than Elena simply being a spirited and intelligent individual (nothing to do with socionics). I think that Kristiina is an ENFj. Her Fe is obvious in my opinion; and she always presents raw ideas and seeks Ti to sort and order them.
    Are you saying ENTj > ENFj or are you saying that the issue is still too unclear to decide?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I don't think there's any way she's a logical type. She said that she will only accept things that make sense to her. That's not being very objective. After all, just because it doesn't make sense to her doesn't mean it isn't true. Her over all tone seems totally NF. If it's EIE or LIE, then I think EIE hands down.
    She's not a logical type because she will only accept things that make sense to her.
    Does that mean that logical types will accept things that don't make sense to them?
    Or does it mean that logical types will accept things, whether it makes sense to them or not?
    Or other?


    (i'm not trying to argue with you, honestly, just trying to make sense of what was said, I feel like I must be missing something. I actually have no opinion on elena's type one way or another.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I don't think there's any way she's a logical type. She said that she will only accept things that make sense to her. That's not being very objective.
    Sorry, but I don't get this reasoning. Would acceptance of things that do not make sense to her make her any more logical? I don't think so. Confidence in one's logical capabilities also implies confidence in evaluating whether something "makes sense" or not.

    Frankly I see Elena using ad hominem only when she is attacked. Which makes sense imho, given that if I try to put myself in her shoes as a newcomer, I can see how I'd be royally pissed by people coming from all places telling me which type I REALLY am like I have understood nothing so far (ps. no objections to this like "but we know better" are allowed).
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    I think she could be a logical type. In fact, she has an abrupt style that logical types sometimes have.

    I don't see why she can't be ENTj. I don't think ENFj is likely because I think she could very well be a logical type, so I guess I'll go 180 the other way from Loki there. I've read more of Elena's posts but I haven't yet read them all so I'm open to seeing something that would make it obvious she's a feeler, but I just don't see it.

    She seems to obviously value Se but that works with either ENTj or ENFj. I'm not sure why it's focused on only those two options though.

    Anyway, I don't know what type she is. I'm just giving my impressions so far. I'll have to read the rest of the long threads about her type though. LOL. She seemed to have a bad interaction with Minde that made me wonder if she could be a Beta thinker instead of a Gamma thinker, but that's the only other option I could personally see.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Sorry, but I don't get this reasoning. Would acceptance of things that do not make sense to her make her any more logical? I don't think so. Confidence in one's logical capabilities also implies confidence in evaluating whether something "makes sense" or not.
    shush you!!
    loki may have just forgot to add something, give him/her a chance first
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    There is only one civilized way to solve this: Heads or Tails?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Frankly I see Elena using ad hominem only when she is attacked.
    I would counter this by claiming that when attacked people tend to fall back on their valued functions and mostly their strongest i.e. ego block functions. Thus if she falls back to ad hominem when attacked it points away from . I would say it points most to or or combination of those.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Which makes sense imho, given that if I try to put myself in her shoes as a newcomer, I can see how I'd be royally pissed by people coming from all places telling me which type I REALLY am like I have understood nothing so far (ps. no objections to this like "but we know better" are allowed).
    Ok, I can understand how people forcefully putting you in a box you don't feel like belonging to can piss you off. I've been there However it seems logical to question a newcomer's type if you don't agree with them. Even many of the "oldies" are still mistyped so it would seem that many newcomers are mistyped too.

    Perhaps she refuses to reconsider her type because she is "under attack" and would consider the arguments presented if things would "calm down"? I still think that points away from as it means she basically shuts down external information presented to her as a defense mechanism and responds with some other function than .

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    Personally, I find this topic to be quite interesting as me being a type or even a quadra type was refuted based on pretty similar arguments that are now used to refute Elena's . Thus should an argument be presented which would "twist" things around that would potentially also affect my typing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    I would counter this by claiming that when attacked people tend to fall back on their valued functions and mostly their strongest i.e. ego block functions. Thus if she falls back to ad hominem when attacked it points away from . I would say it points most to or or combination of those.
    when people feel attacked, it might also push them into role mode,
    one's role function inhibits one's base, at least temporarily,
    (yet another thing to take into considering when trying to determine ego functions of someone else....base vs role)
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I think she could be a logical type. In fact, she has an abrupt style that logical types sometimes have.
    Yeah I agree. And to answer your question from the other thread about calling people out on stuff being Ti - calling people out for lacking substance in an argument is something any person should do, regardless of functions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Steve View Post
    Yeah I agree. And to answer your question from the other thread about calling people out on stuff being Ti - calling people out for lacking substance in an argument is something any person should do, regardless of functions.
    It's probably something any T type would do, but I don't think I would. Maybe I would, I don't know. I'd more likely retreat. But I think a Te- or Ti-dominant person would do that. Or even an Fe-dominant person, as they don't have Ti as a weak and unvalued function like we Fi folks do.

    I don't see any reason why she and Expat can't both be ENTjs. They have pretty similar styles, although hers is more hostile right now because she feels like she's being ganged up on. But he's gotten pretty fiery from time to time too. And I do think he's ENTj rather than ESTj. I don't personally see him valuing Si.

    The fact that they don't get along seems irrelevant to me as far as Socionics typing goes. That's more about Socionix than anything else.

    I think she's more likely to be ENTj than FDG anyway.
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    Quote Originally Posted by anndelise View Post
    when people feel attacked, it might also push them into role mode,
    one's role function inhibits one's base, at least temporarily,
    (yet another thing to take into considering when trying to determine ego functions of someone else....base vs role)
    This should be cleared. Under what circumstances would people fall back into role function instead of leading function? It seems a bit counter-intuitive because it is a weak and unvalued function. And conscious too so people should know very well that they are weak in it. Ok, sometimes people may want to "show off" their role function to try to appear competent in it in the eyes of others but I'm not sure if this was the case with Elena. It is possible that in Italy is appreciated and especially in women and thus Elena was trying to "show off" her role when she came into a new environment. It just seemed like a natural defense reaction more than "showing off".

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    I am not sure if this argument is about what Elena's type is anymore.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I am not sure if this argument is about what Elena's type is anymore.
    Why do you say that? It was supposed to be about whether it is possible that Elena, for some reason, falls back to using role function when pressured and in a more general sense, does that make sense at all.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I'm not sure how Rick fits into this -- I guess he also wasted his time studying socionics since he managed to get it all wrong, too (or I managed to brainwash him).
    apparently he's an EII whose Ne brought him down a similar path to sergei ganin.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    Why do you say that? It was supposed to be about whether it is possible that Elena, for some reason, falls back to using role function when pressured and in a more general sense, does that make sense at all.
    I would think that a casual read of Elena's thread in What's My Type would make my original statement perfectly clear.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I am not sure if this argument is about what Elena's type is anymore.
    Well, it depends. It is, in the sense that in order to argue about anyone's type, we first have to agree on basic premises on socionics - that is, in which framework the types even exist. For whatever reason - but perhaps it's a consequence of things "boiling" for some time - recently there has been a sort of flood of diverging views on what types and socionics even are.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Then why not let it settle and Elena play the part of an ENTj so that she will post more naturally and less defensively? Then after a while, you can revisit memorable threads or posts of hers as evidence for the case of ENFj or ENTj either way. It would not be the first or the last time that people will have changed their types after being convinced of their self-typing.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    I would think that a casual read of Elena's thread in What's My Type would make my original statement perfectly clear.
    I really hate this kind of riddles Could you make it perfectly clear right here right now?

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    I really hate this kind of riddles Could you make it perfectly clear right here right now?
    Yes.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I can see how I'd be royally pissed by people coming from all places telling me which type I REALLY am like I have understood nothing so far (ps. no objections to this like "but we know better" are allowed).

    but its true, honestly.

    i'm not pissed off so much by the fact that she doesn't agree with the typing of EIE. however its obscene how little sensibility she has in dealing with the matter. she won't even consider the possibility that she's wrong and declares anybody who doesn't agree with her to be an evil person.

    she reminds me a lot of mikemex, and she's going to get about the same treatment as he did, from me anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    This discussion has been going on for quite a while. So do YOU think Elena is ENTj or ENFj? Does she mainly rely on or in arguments? You may suggest other types too but as the discussion has lately revolved around these two types I see no reason to bring up any others. So let's concentrate on those.

    I am very interested to see who currently stands on which side of the fence and why.

    If possible give a short reasoning and state from which Quadra you are. If you wish you can say whether you think she shares your Quadra values or not (especially regarding the / axis)

    My current opinion: ENFj

    Reasoning: She often refers to her impressions () as a source of information for her and is somewhat forceful in her opinions (). Matches both ENFj and ENTj. However I haven't seen her providing any kind of factual information about anything whatsoever (if you have, please post a link). She _never_ supports her impressions with facts. That does not suggest dominant in the least. Instead she actively keeps avoiding giving out information. It is a weak and sensitive function to her. An example, when asked to provide information to support her view she replies: "I asked you first lol. So, answer please?". There is plenty of examples of this kind of avoidance and "game playing". It suggests a > preference. She has also made some references to how she values consistency of thought and this would suggest valuing type but ENTjs also value consistency to an extent (but never if the price to pay is factual inaccuracy). Then, she rather spontaneously uses ad hominem argumentation as one of her main "weapons" which does not suggest ego block logic (a logical fallacy is unlikely to be chosen as a primary "weapon" by a logic dominant type). Finally (even if Reinin is not that good of an argument) she seems taciturn >> narrator.
    Lol, okay another type thread about me.

    I have demanded facts to support why I am supposed leading, time and time again. I've yet to be supplied with any. Have you not paid attention? Did you forget about all those repeated calls I made for people to give me something that was actually informative to support the idea of me being :Fe leading? The only explanations that have been directed to support this absurdity are some vague twisted delusions that people like Expat and Joy have been projecting on me about what my motivations are lol.

    I have supplied a great deal of information about myself. I have told about my interests, my outlooks, what drives me, some about how I see the world, how I relate to people. There's posts all over the place that tell information about me. HARDLY ANYBODY PAYS ATTENTION! Most of you just go on repeating whatever nonsense you've convinced yourselves of as if what I said was never said at all! Then you pick tiny isolated incidents or words or phrases I use to support what you want to believe and ignore the rest. Do you and others even realize that you do this?! Are you even capable of processing this concept?

    To be honest, this is rather alarming to me. I don't know that I have ever borne witness to fantastical, irrational incognizance of this degree before.

    Anyway, look. I'm intelligent enough to know that there is nothing empirical to Socionics, but I'm a reasonable person and I will listen to reasonable explanations. So start giving me some reasonable explanations here! I'm not asking for much.

    About Quadra values, I don't think I share Quadra with her. She would have to be rather unhealthy member of my Quadra if it were the same. It is possible that I partially share Quadra values with her though. As in being in her wing Quadra.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Then why not let it settle and Elena play the part of an ENTj so that she will post more naturally and less defensively? Then after a while, you can revisit memorable threads or posts of hers as evidence for the case of ENFj or ENTj either way. It would not be the first or the last time that people will have changed their types after being convinced of their self-typing.
    The suggestion is good, but I wonder about the results.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Logos View Post
    Yes.
    The box is preventing it from coming out?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Loki View Post
    I don't think there's any way she's a logical type. She said that she will only accept things that make sense to her. That's not being very objective. After all, just because it doesn't make sense to her doesn't mean it isn't true. Her over all tone seems totally NF. If it's EIE or LIE, then I think EIE hands down.
    bullshit.

    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    Perhaps she refuses to reconsider her type because she is "under attack" and would consider the arguments presented if things would "calm down"? I still think that points away from as it means she basically shuts down external information presented to her as a defense mechanism and responds with some other function than .
    +1

    Quote Originally Posted by Slacker Mom View Post
    I think she could be a logical type. In fact, she has an abrupt style that logical types sometimes have.
    gee, what a lucid and comprehensive argument.

    i'm not bashing you personally here, slacker, but at least two people have quoted this wonderfully conclusive and incisive passage that proves her LIEness beyond any stretch of imagination. i want to warmly commend these people for their wonderful capacity for seeing the big picture.

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    It certainly doesn't prove that she's a logical type. I just don't understand why it's been said that she has an Fe style. It wasn't meant to be an argument at all, just an observation that her style doesn't disprove her being a logical type.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post

    i'm not bashing you personally here, slacker, but at least two people have quoted this wonderfully conclusive and incisive passage that proves her LIEness beyond any stretch of imagination. i want to warmly commend these people for their wonderful capacity for seeing the big picture.
    As do I want to commend YOU for seeing it (and why people would get those impressions).

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Thank you. And I want to commend you on the ludicity and comprehensiveness of yours:
    the difference is that nobody in their right mind is going to point to my saying "i agree" and use that as an argument.

    i'm not bashing the original comment, but rather any people that are using that comment to substantiate their ideas.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    I have demanded facts to support why I am supposed leading, time and time again. I've yet to be supplied with any.
    Perhaps you are not receptive to information which has been provided to you? Perhaps you are seeking for which has more "clarity" and "structure".

    What really bothers me about your -ness and overall supposed narrative ENTj nature is that you always expect things to be explained to you and you act as a "judge" to those explanations. You don't produce information but instead evaluate what is given to you.
    This seems more like a dual seeking taciturn way of approaching things. ENTjs and -types in general should be more active in challenging others with their own arguments instead of repeating the "you haven't yet provided me with a good argument" thing. That's seems like an ENFj thing to do. Waiting for the ISTj to come in and clarify the arguments.

    ENTjs push facts down your throat to make you change your mind. They don't keep asking about you why, why, why and trying to insult your reputation and call you mean in the process.

    And calling people stupid for not providing you what you want is pretty lame. Using that logic it makes you pretty stupid too as you haven't provided me with anything I could use. And of course it is completely your fault and not mine. You just don't have what it takes to talk sense to me. Oh, that's so stupid of you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    It wasn't funny so stop laughing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Her overall tone is extremely Fe > Te.

    I can't say more than that without being accused of making accusations. I guess I'll just add that I find her language and what her reasoning and motivations appear to be from my perspective rather baffling.
    Just don't lay claim to knowledge you don't actually have is all I've said. If you were capable of reading what my motivations and so forth were, that would be admissible as evidence to me if it could be corroborated with a definite case for EIE. But you don't have any such capacities to read me in that way, so any claim based on your hearsay about my motives is mere meaningless accusation and can validate nothing.
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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    As I said in your type thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Elena, I'm done. The exact same scenario that happened a year ago is in the process of happening again, and I have no interest in taking part in it this time. If you want to believe you're LIE, great. Have fun.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    The message you have entered is too short. Please lengthen your message to at least 1 characters.
    put a letter in the same color as the background.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Carla View Post
    Fair enough; I don't think anybody used the comment to substantiate their ideas though. The quoting (at least on my part) was just an acknowledgement of what Slacker Mom further went on to describe here:
    point taken.

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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    Perhaps you are not receptive to information which has been provided to you?
    Where is it? Where? Where? Where?!

    Perhaps you are seeking for which has more "clarity" and "structure".
    ... NO.

    What really bothers me about your -ness and overall supposed narrative ENTj nature is that you always expect things to be explained to you and you act as a "judge" to those explanations. You don't produce information but instead evaluate what is given to you.
    Oh god this redundancy makes me want to scream. I hate more than anything else to repeat myself. READ my previous post againnnnnnn. I said theres information about me scattered around the forum in different posts. Go look, it's there. If you want more, ask me questions! Specific questions please, nothing that would make me have to type out a long irritating explanation. I'll tell you anything to want know about me (as long as it's not something intimately personal but that should be a given.)

    Btw, a lot of this could have been prevented if people would have just asked questions first so we could have informed eachother and discussed instead of debated like we are now. But noooo, people wanted to jump straight to making accusations instead lol.

    This seems more like a dual seeking taciturn way of approaching things. ENTjs and -types in general should be more active in challenging others with their own arguments instead of repeating the "you haven't yet provided me with a good argument" thing. That's seems like an ENFj thing to do. Waiting for the ISTj to come in and clarify the arguments.
    I can't counterattack an argument that's too weak, where's the fun in that?? Good arguments are the ones that fight back.

    ENTjs push facts down your throat to make you change your mind. They don't keep asking about you why, why, why and trying to insult your reputation and call you mean in the process.
    I didn't call anyone mean or insult reputations.

    Also bear in mind that this is Socionics, so "fact" doesn't have a lot of meaning here. Socionics is not a scientific or academic discipline in any sense of the term, not even close. It would be laughed out of any institution that was concerned REAL factual information.

    Which does not mean there isn't something real to Socionics, I believe there is. If I thought there wasn't, I would not be here. But please be careful with the term "fact." Honestly I think it would (should) be offensive to any Te leading person that any of this could be deemed factual. It's not and it cannot be. There is no methods of validation yet. Socionics is not a falsifiable theory that can be tested.

    You should see XoX, that knowing what counts as facts and evidence in a field, and understanding the way that it does so and why, is crucial to a strong Te outlook. Never take anything that calls itself a "fact" at face value.

    And calling people stupid for not providing you what you want is pretty lame. Using that logic it makes you pretty stupid too as you haven't provided me with anything I could use. And of course it is completely your fault and not mine. You just don't have what it takes to talk sense to me. Oh, that's so stupid of you.
    You want information then FUCKING ask for it! And don't ask overly broad questions like "Tell me why you think you are Te." I could write pages on that and it would be fruitless and get us nowhere. Ask the specific questions you want answered that will help -you- decide for yourself what I am or what I am not.
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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    Quote Originally Posted by hkkmr View Post
    *Little mousey voice*

    Could you provide a bit of writing that you've written before... pre-socionics. Maybe something that is natural for you.

    It can be in italian I can read it via a translation program althrough a english piece would be good from your time in London. And I really don't know what your type is so I kinda of am interested.
    I looked a bit but I don't think I have any writing on this computer that I've done. Plus a machine translation would destroy it's usefulness in typing since you lose all the nuances and character of the writing piece.

    Maybe I can tell you some English authors writing that I like and which I hate?
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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