How do you define lying?

[Joy]

If someone says something that is not true, is it a lie even if (s)he genuinely believes it to be true?

If someone says something that they consciously believe to be true, but deep down they're just deceiving themselves, are they lying to anyone besides themselves?

If someone knowingly says something that isn't technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is in line with reality, are they lying?

If someone says something that's technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is not in line with reality, are they lying?

If someone omits information from something that they're telling you, are they lying? What if they honestly do not see how that information would be relevant? Or what if they honestly forgot all about the thing they didn't mention?

[snegledmaca]

Simply put, when somebody says something is true when it isn't. Regardless of context. (Yes, I do consider ancient philosophers, thinkers, "scientists" who were wrong as liars)



Also joy this is the reason why I called you a liar, all those things you said with conviction as being true that were not, I consider it lying.

[bibliophile8]

If someone says something that is not true, is it a lie even if (s)he genuinely believes it to be true?

If someone says something that they consciously believe to be true, but deep down they're just deceiving themselves, are they lying to anyone besides themselves?

If someone knowingly says something that isn't technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is in line with reality, are they lying?

If someone says something that's technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is not in line with reality, are they lying?

If someone omits information from something that they're telling you, are they lying? What if they honestly do not see how that information would be relevant? Or what if they honestly forgot all about the thing they didn't mention?

no
no
no, just being vague
not sure how that's possible, but no, their just getting caught in the details and missing the big picture
depends on how important it was and how angry I am about it. my response can range anywhere from total indifference to eternal damnation.

[Joy]

Also joy this is the reason why I called you a liar, all those things you said with conviction as being true that were not, I consider it lying.

So anyone whose opinions differ from your own is a liar?

[snegledmaca]

So anyone whose opinions differ from your own is a liar?

Lol, no, whose can be proven to be incorrect through objective means. My stance on the issue bares no relevance, that is, I do not hold an opinion.

[william conly]

Lying
Most lying is un-intentional in that we don’t know the truth. The truth is that which can only come from the mind of man as he eliminates the noise of his intellect as he stresses to define and explain his existence. When the noise of his intellect subsides he will know the truth of his existence as he uses that pure intelligence he has obtain through out his life to speak only the truth as he applies his knowledge for the benefit for all.

[Joy]

Lol, no, whose can be proven to be incorrect through objective means. My stance on the issue bares no relevance, that is, I do not hold an opinion.

Would you have an example, by any chance?

[snegledmaca]

Would you have an example, by any chance?

Hmmm, my mother saying it's cold outside when she did not bother to check it?

[Logos]

Lol, no, whose can be proven to be incorrect through objective means. My stance on the issue bares no relevance, that is, I do not hold an opinion.

Who wouldn't be liar under that definition?

[Joy]

Hmmm, my mother saying it's cold outside when she did not bother to check it?

If it is January and she lives in a temperate climate, it's cold. Besides, cold is a relative term.

What I meant to ask was if you could give me an example of a time when I lied.

[marooned]

If someone says something that is not true, is it a lie even if (s)he genuinely believes it to be true? No. Lying has to be at least somewhat deliberate.

If someone says something that they consciously believe to be true, but deep down they're just deceiving themselves, are they lying to anyone besides themselves? Not really, because they obviously aren't 100% sure... I mean this sort of thing is really hard to tell with... there isn't always an absolute truth to deceive oneself of... it just means that the they're self-confused and/or that the universe isn't a place where everything is 100% true or 100% false... there is often an entire expanse between true and false of this grey amorphous uncertainty... inside it there may not be a clear true or false.

If someone knowingly says something that isn't technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is in line with reality, are they lying? No. It's usually close enough. If we get the drift, they've transmitted the information. Not all information can be transmitted in factual concrete bits, sometimes it's best to leave it in abstract form and it's actually more true in that form.

If someone says something that's technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is not in line with reality, are they lying? No. But they're off base in their understanding, have missed the deeper meaning, etc. Actually, if they're doing it on purpose they *are* lying.

If someone omits information from something that they're telling you, are they lying? What if they honestly do not see how that information would be relevant? Or what if they honestly forgot all about the thing they didn't mention? If they deliberately omitted information to hide the truth, they're lying. If they didn't think the information was relevant, forgot to mention it, etc. then they aren't lying... they just missed it. Probably they should try to consider that just because they don't think something is relevant doesn't necessarily mean it isn't... but it's easy to miss that sort of thing sometimes, or it's just too much of a pain to list every bit of information in your head... best to summarize and get to the gist of it.

[Slacker]

OK I skimmed the thread but I haven't read it that carefully.

Lying is intentional deception. So you can lie by intentionally giving false information, intentionally leading someone to believe something false but not specifically giving false information, or intentionally omitting information (lying by omission).

But it has to be intentional. If you weren't aware of something, or forgot to mention something, it was simply a mistake.

[Mea]

OK I skimmed the thread but I haven't read it that carefully.

Lying is intentional deception. So you can lie by intentionally giving false information, intentionally leading someone to believe something false but not specifically giving false information, or intentionally omitting information (lying by omission).

But it has to be intentional. If you weren't aware of something, or forgot to mention something, it was simply a mistake.

Mm. I can agree with this.

[snegledmaca]

If it is January and she lives in a temperate climate, it's cold. Besides, cold is a relative term.

What I meant to ask was if you could give me an example of a time when I lied.

Oh, sure, every time you claimed you were a type you were not. Which was a lot.

[munenori2]

I think you're conflating being wrong with lying, sneg. Our schools sound like pretty decadent places, though thankfully that would make the smart people more 'honest'.

Really Slackermom nailed down the pertinent criteria: intention.

[Mea]

Oh, sure, every time you claimed you were a type you were not. Which was a lot.

I really don't think that's lying since she, at the point of time, might not have realized that that's her type.

[snegledmaca]

I think you're conflating being wrong with lying, sneg. Our schools sound like pretty decadent places, though thankfully that would make the smart people more 'honest'.

Yes, I am equating them. However, I am also taking into account the context. Some things are not invariable through time, so on those things it cannot be said that one is lying as they could have been defining the current state of the thing (However even then, if the description of the current state is incorrect, that is lying).

Really Slackermom nailed down the pertinent criteria: intention.

My mote is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Or I don't care what you think, it's what's correct that matters. You may be convinced you are right, but if you are wrong that is pretty meaningless, and if you spread your wrong conviction around you are effectively equal to a person doing it with an intention of deception. The effect is the same.

I really don't think that's lying since she, at the point of time, might not have realized that that's her type.

That's not excuse for claiming to be correct. Type will not change now or tomorrow, claiming to be correct on such issues and being wrong is ones own fault.

[anndelise]

considering what probably prompted this thread, i think the better questions would be:


1) At what point do you feel/believe that someone is lying?

2) What are some of the ways people suggest that another is lying? There are of course the direct "s/he's lying". But what are some of the more...diplomatic...ways?

[Slacker]

Was this inspired by the Elena typing thread? Or the WTF thread?

[aestrivex]

If someone says something that is not true, is it a lie even if (s)he genuinely believes it to be true?

If someone says something that they consciously believe to be true, but deep down they're just deceiving themselves, are they lying to anyone besides themselves?

If someone knowingly says something that isn't technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is in line with reality, are they lying?

If someone says something that's technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is not in line with reality, are they lying?

If someone omits information from something that they're telling you, are they lying? What if they honestly do not see how that information would be relevant? Or what if they honestly forgot all about the thing they didn't mention?

for all of the above, who cares?

[anndelise]

Was this inspired by the Elena typing thread? Or the WTF thread?

lol
me: *reading the above*
me: huh? wtf is the WTF thread???
me: oh, duh....wtf at me forgetting about the lying part of the wtf thread??


I believe it's from Elena's type thread

*wanders off laughing at herself*

[Slacker]

lol
me: *reading the above*
me: huh? wtf is the WTF thread???
me: oh, duh....wtf at me forgetting about the lying part of the wtf thread??


I believe it's from Elena's type thread

*wanders off laughing at herself*

I can't be bothered keeping up on these kinds of dramas. I figured it was one of the two. LOL

I should look to see what the specific situation is. I've been busy most of the day and then there are like 4 or 5 new pages or something. It's too much to keep up on.

[Joy]

Oh, sure, every time you claimed you were a type you were not. Which was a lot.

I never said that I was 100% sure that I was any type.

considering what probably prompted this thread, i think the better questions would be:


1) At what point do you feel/believe that someone is lying?

2) What are some of the ways people suggest that another is lying? There are of course the direct "s/he's lying". But what are some of the more...diplomatic...ways?

Feel free to ask those questions if you'd like. They're not what I was wondering about though.

Well technically, all of the questions I posted were getting at what you listed as 1), but the questions I asked where intended to give examples of situations in which some would see something as lying and some would not. They were pretty much just giving examples of the types of answers I was hoping for.

Was this inspired by the Elena typing thread? Or the WTF thread?

The Elena thread, but it's got nothing to do with what's going on there. It was just a point in the discussion which made me wonder about the things I asked here.

I haven't read the WTF thread.

[snegledmaca]

I never said that I was 100% sure that I was any type.

Well not that I think about it, it doesn't really matter, spreading false information is enough for me. You actively made socionics explanation of why exactly you were a certain type. If you simply believed with no impact then I don't think it would've mattered. This was, effectively, as if you were 100% convinced. In short, it's your actions, the impact you leave, that is the only thing that really matters.

[Joy]

Well not that I think about it, it doesn't really matter, spreading false information is enough for me. You actively made socionics explanation of why exactly you were a certain type. If you simply believed with no impact then I don't think it would've mattered. This was, effectively, as if you were 100% convinced. In short, it's your actions, the impact you leave, that is the only thing that really matters.

Okay, this whole "lying" thing makes more sense to me now.

[XoX]

Lying is about not telling the truth as is your best understanding of the truth. Adding something to the truth or removing something from the truth is lying.

[FDG]

Lying is anything which is written by Joy.

[Suomea]

If someone says something that is not true, is it a lie even if (s)he genuinely believes it to be true? No....as long as it's really genuine and not by taking short cuts.

If someone says something that they consciously believe to be true, but deep down they're just deceiving themselves, are they lying to anyone besides themselves? Yes if they didn't take the time to think about it and have the ability to.

If someone knowingly says something that isn't technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is in line with reality, are they lying? Not really, as long as they don't know that it isn't factually inaccurate.

If someone says something that's technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is not in line with reality, are they lying? Don't know what this means..... So they are saying 100 percent true facts but their conclusion is knowingly wrong? Yeah that's definitely lying.

If someone omits information from something that they're telling you, are they lying?
If the information is important.
What if they honestly do not see how that information would be relevant?
Maybe....vague area here.
Or what if they honestly forgot all about the thing they didn't mention?
Then probably no.

: )

[tereg]

If someone says something that is not true, is it a lie even if (s)he genuinely believes it to be true?

If someone says something that they consciously believe to be true, but deep down they're just deceiving themselves, are they lying to anyone besides themselves?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/player/nol/new...t=true&bbcws=2

Raphael Palmeiro: "Let me start by telling you this: I have never used steroids, period. I don't know how to say it anymore clearly than that. Never."

And then 5 months later, he tested positive for steriods.

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2121659


He is a liar.

[force my hand]

If someone says something that is not true, is it a lie even if (s)he genuinely believes it to be true?

No, they are just mistaken.

If someone says something that they consciously believe to be true, but deep down they're just deceiving themselves, are they lying to anyone besides themselves?

I don't know. I think the stress and trouble of their self-delusion negates any public effect (in most cases that don't affect, say, an entire nation).

If someone knowingly says something that isn't technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is in line with reality, are they lying?

It's certainly in part a mistruth, but for some situations the 'effect' is all that matters and in those cases I don't believe it should be considered lying.

In other cases where facts are extremely important - say a trial - it would most certainly be lying.

If someone says something that's technically 100% factually accurate, but the spirit of what they've said is not in line with reality, are they lying?

Only if the intention is there to deceive (i.e. misrepresenting statistics). Facts don't always speak for themselves.

If someone omits information from something that they're telling you, are they lying?

Lies of ommission - certainly.

What if they honestly do not see how that information would be relevant?

Then no.

Or what if they honestly forgot all about the thing they didn't mention?

Again, no.

[mikemex]

My mote is "the road to hell is paved with good intentions". Or I don't care what you think, it's what's correct that matters. You may be convinced you are right, but if you are wrong that is pretty meaningless, and if you spread your wrong conviction around you are effectively equal to a person doing it with an intention of deception. The effect is the same.

As long as you think that stones make decisions and perform actions like us. If it's not people and their intentions, I don't know what else exists.

[Joy]

Simply put, when somebody says something is true when it isn't. Regardless of context. (Yes, I do consider ancient philosophers, thinkers, "scientists" who were wrong as liars)



Also joy this is the reason why I called you a liar, all those things you said with conviction as being true that were not, I consider it lying.

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...052#post293052