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Thread: Dual-type theory: Exertion/Slave Types Discussion Thread

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    Default Dual-type theory: Exertion/Slave Types Discussion Thread

    The purpose of this thread is to define the exertion/slave types postulated by dual-type theory. To do this, it will be necessary to first define the exertion elements which comprise them; that is another aim of this thread. All interested parties are invited to participate. (note: if you are skeptical of the existence of dual-type theory, please DO NOT post in this thread.)

    Exertion type is that which you "do": it is your skill at replicating ideas and activities observed by means of the IM elements. Exertion aspects are means of channelling energy, and are always activities designed to differentiate energies from each other. These notions are poorly understood: we here lots of talk about efficiency, but little explanation as to -why- one process is more efficient than another. Exertion theory is the first step on the road to understanding the nature of energy, something humans are naturally estranged from. (I've heard physicists describe light as "something we may not be able to comprehend"; to hear a physicist talk of light that way is a clear sign our knowledge of energy is lacking.)

    Exertion is also a theory of talent; a natural measure of a person's capacity to hold their hand steady as they write; to coordinate themselves; to placiate others relationally and to phrase their speech effectively; to demonstrate emotional cues and to create dramatic effect; to comfort others and to react harmoniously with the world around oneself; to claim territory quickly and effectively; to minimize entropy; to assemble structures which possess internal and structural integrity; to release potential energy and to reproduce ideas; and to stir other's emotions with precision and grace. No person has ever demonstrated their talent at all of these equally; rather, effectiveness in one area of the above can be demonstrated by analysis to always be accompanied by ineffectiveness in another. The great thinkers and theorists find themselves perpetually misunderstood; the great athletes prefer work at department stores to the university.

    When one speaks of exertion, one speaks of action. It is something done, something happening, something related more to physics than to psychology. (thanks, crazedrat) Yet at root, what are the IM elements but this very energy, apprehended from within rather than without? The following is how I see the exertion elements from what I have observed, and that which I have deduced by contrast between exertion and information metabolism.

    (for purposes of brevity I will abbreviate exertion as "Ex-" when used with an element)

    Te

    Extroverted thinking, as an aspect of energy, is the act of a bond. It includes the chemical and ionic bonds of chemistry, and like metabolism Te, is dependent on Fi polarities between aspects. Ex-Te language is precise, so that it can connect precisely where it is most suited and nowhere else. Similarly, individuals with strong exertion Te are wordsmiths who easily phrase. This is important because the strong Te comes at the price of Fe, which is one's means of self-expression: it is important for the Te person to express themselves as clearly as possible because others will not take for granted what they mean; how could they, when they are offered no contextual cues to clue people in as to past experiences with the content? Ex-Te people prefer the explicit over the implicit: they will use large words to state what they mean, but only as required. They avoid flowery language, and are apt to argue over questions of definition for long hours. An Ex-Te person is like to break a word down to its roots when analyzing it, carefully scrutenizing it syllable by syllable to understand every last facet of its meaning. For this reason they are effective technical writers.

    To the strong Ex-Te person everything is headed toward something: the world is a set of paths that one must travel to find one's specific Ex-Fi at the end. Likewise the Ex-Te person is a niche individual who will choose something and stick to it: they are devoted partners in a relationship and will do what is necessary to make them last. This may prove a weakness of theirs, especially if their partner is not to be trusted; Ex-Te people can easily be taken advantage of and forced into unequal relational settings.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-13-2008 at 01:41 AM.

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    In relation to the classical typology, is the exertion type (what one does) what we typically view as the type, with the slave type being something additional or is it more of an overlap which you're trying to divvy into their respective corners?

    It seems a somewhat obvious, though admittedly very simplified and subject to my perhaps faulty memory of previous posts, observation that the exertion type represents a commitance of energy through activity (which might be viewed as extraverted in the sense that a function is extraverted, i.e. dealing with objects/the world) and the slave type is the metabolism or regeneration of the energy required to carry out those tasks (and could be viewed as introverted in the way that it deals with the view of the world, something internally accessible).

    Granting that this approaches the point, it might be permissible to ask if the system of dual-type theory isn't being viewed in a biased manner (i.e. from a primarily introverted POV). I guess what I'm getting at is that the association of energy exerted seems to be with what is done and energy metabolized with the view of the world, which sounds pretty much like the MO of introverted types (energy is expended publicly and regained privately) whereas for an extraverted type it might be that the exertion type might have to do with the generation or maintenance of a private world view and their method of metabolization brought about in interaction with the world itself.

    Doubtless I'm talking out my ass right now, but it was just something that struck me as potentially interesting.
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    In relation to the classical typology, is the exertion type (what one does) what we typically view as the type, with the slave type being something additional or is it more of an overlap which you're trying to divvy into their respective corners?
    The exertion type IS the slave type. You are confusing the master/IM type with the slave type.

    exertion = slave

    I suppose it's not very clear. I'll work on a description of the relationship between master and slave in the same block. For now, just remember that master = IM/classical socionics type and slave = exertion type.

    Try to leave terms like "extroversion" and "introversion" out of this except with regards to the elements themselves, or we're going to end up in a hopeless muddle.

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    Ne

    A person with slave Ne might be someone who jumps from one craft or science to another, losing themselves happily along the avenues of each discipline. For this person, the actual work involved learning and doing these crafts/activities and the connections between the disciplines are more important than the end product. Activities and energies are focused on exploring what is possible within one field and also what connects one field to another.

    Example: a person interested in photography moves from black and white darkroom work to sepia toning, then polaroid transfers, etc. constantly experimenting with new possibilities of the medium, new cameras, new printing papers, new methodologies, etc.


    ?? what do you think.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Ne

    A person with slave Ne might be someone who jumps from one craft or science to another, losing themselves happily along the avenues of each discipline. For this person, the actual work involved learning and doing these crafts/activities and the connections between the disciplines are more important than the end product. Activities and energies are focused on exploring what is possible within one field and also what connects one field to another.

    Example: a person interested in photography moves from black and white darkroom work to sepia toning, then polaroid transfers, etc. constantly experimenting with new possibilities of the medium, new cameras, new printing papers, new methodologies, etc.


    ?? what do you think.
    Well I do do that. Can you explain more about this in yourself? In others that you have seen?

    To Ex-Ne, new things are always happening. Sometimes there are preconditions for them to happen. Often times they are ideas that were dreamed up with meta(metabolism)-Ne ages ago, but it was. This is a problem in my life: I can conceive of a wonderous possibility that I must let wait until the "right time" to make it real, as though conditions must ripen for it. Actually, this self-same thread is a case in point: until these past few months, there were not enough people interested in to really get anything accomplished in a dual-type discussion thread. (that it did happen, I have labcoat to thank, and is it any wonder given his Ex-Ne base?) From my PoV, Ex-Ne is like a waiting game inexorably tied to 8th function meta-Ni; you might say my entire life is such a game.

    Einstein was a creative-Ex-Ne person. Although we remember him for his theories of relativitiy, he had a host of other pursuits, from refrigerator patents to (as you may have heard) international diplomacy. Most of them never were completed.

    And you see labcoat and I jumping from one supersocion avenue to another. I've even dabbled in politics.

    Ex-Ne is potential released, made manifest.

    EDIT:
    I've thought about it, and given that my slave type is ENFj, it would seem that I attempt to raise others' instinctive/genetic potential as a means of making them more appealing to me; that is, I try to make people all they can be, or to see a system become all that it can be. This makes them more attractive to me, and to others who share my instincts. ...On that basis, I would have to go a step further and state that I attempt to bring out people's potential to be more like me, or at least something that I find appealing. Yes, I can see that in myself. I do that very often.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-12-2008 at 06:25 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Well I do do that. Can you explain more about this in yourself? In others that you have seen?
    My sister-in-law has always refused to hold a traditional job. She and my brother are fly-by-the-seat-of-their-pants people. Their business has looked like this: first she created hand-painted wedding invitations. Through their appearances at wedding shows, they realized they could make more money with photography so they redirected their business (quite effortlessly I might add). They were wedding photographers for awhile, marketing themselves as documentary artists and then opened an art gallery selling their art photos. When that got to be boring, they shut down the gallery and began building their dream home. By the time that was done, my sister-in-law decided to start designing hand-made couture for their high-end clientele. Now they've left their dream home (long story) and are scouting out a new, exciting place to live. Their lives are all about realizing potential and going after their ever-changing dreams.
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    To Ex-Ne, new things are always happening. Sometimes there are preconditions for them to happen. Often times they are ideas that were dreamed up with meta(metabolism)-Ne ages ago, but it was. This is a problem in my life: I can conceive of a wonderous possibility that I must let wait until the "right time" to make it real, as though conditions must ripen for it. Actually, this self-same thread is a case in point: until these past few months, there were not enough people interested in to really get anything accomplished in a dual-type discussion thread. (that it did happen, I have labcoat to thank, and is it any wonder given his Ex-Ne base?) From my PoV, Ex-Ne is like a waiting game inexorably tied to 8th function meta-Ni; you might say my entire life is such a game.
    This might be an example of something similar in my life (possibly along with Ex-Fi? Tell me what you think). I met a person I really clicked with and immediately knew we would be friends, quite possibly for a long time. I also wanted to meet his wife right away and establish a family friendship with them. My first impulse was to dive into this friendship, but, aware that we had only known one another a short amount of time, I knew I had to wait and let time take its course even though I saw very clearly that we could be close friends, like family. (kind of weird, I know) It's been awhile now and things are going exactly the way I imagined them although we aren't very close family friends yet because I don't get to see he very often, we are headed in that direction and he and I are quite good friends. I knew instinctively that I had to respect the development of the friendship until such time as reality became the same for him as it was for me already in my head. So in essence my Ne is deferring to Fi. I hold myself back from making suggestions such as "let's invite them over for dinner" because I know the timing isn't right yet.
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    This might be an example of something similar in my life (possibly along with Ex-Fi? Tell me what you think). I met a person I really clicked with and immediately knew we would be friends, quite possibly for a long time. I also wanted to meet his wife right away and establish a family friendship with them. My first impulse was to dive into this friendship, but, aware that we had only known one another a short amount of time, I knew I had to wait and let time take its course even though I saw very clearly that we could be close friends, like family. (kind of weird, I know) It's been awhile now and things are going exactly the way I imagined them although we aren't very close family friends yet because I don't get to see he very often, we are headed in that direction and he and I are quite good friends. I knew instinctively that I had to respect the development of the friendship until such time as reality became the same for him as it was for me already in my head. So in essence my Ne is deferring to Fi. I hold myself back from making suggestions such as "let's invite them over for dinner" because I know the timing isn't right yet.
    I think you're a little ahead of me on this. Slow down. (for the purposes of this thread; not that you would slow down completely if I asked.

    I'm seeing a lot of different things going on in that passage; too many to differentiate at this time.

    Before I continue, I'd like to share an insight I had last night: the observation of a Reinin-like dichotomy unique to the exertion type. I call this dichotomy "seeking" vs. "receiving".

    Ex-Te types are seekers: they are always headed toward some destination or another, on basis of the suitability of the Fi polarities available to them. Receivers are Ex-Fi types, who choose from among what Ex-Te is offering them. Because we are speaking of a dichotomy, there are about as many seekers as there are receivers, so at any moment options are limited for either. It is the task of the Ex-Fi types to make themselves attractive to the Ex-Te seekers. Ex-Fi doesn't really have a choice of what they get; they are unskilled at finding what they desire and are likely to waste time trying. (I can personally vouch on this.)
    However, they know how to make themselves attractive and desirable. (something they learn from meta-Fi types who may or may not actually be capable of putting their ideas to use, depending on their slave types.) Likewise, Ex-Te types waste time trying to make themselves either desirable or attractive; rather, they should seek to find that which they are looking for before someone else does, and put energy into that.

    Contrast Einstein (an ENTp-INTj) with Audrey Hepburn. (INFp-ESFp) Audrey effortlessly made herself attractive and appealing; Einstein's hair was a frazzle.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    I think you're a little ahead of me on this. Slow down. (for the purposes of this thread; not that you would slow down completely if I asked.

    I'm seeing a lot of different things going on in that passage; too many to differentiate at this time.

    Before I continue, I'd like to share an insight I had last night: the observation of a Reinin-like dichotomy unique to the exertion type. I call this dichotomy "seeking" vs. "receiving".

    Ex-Te types are seekers: they are always headed toward some destination or another, on basis of the suitability of the Fi polarities available to them. Receivers are Ex-Fi types, who choose from among what Ex-Te is offering them. Because we are speaking of a dichotomy, there are about as many seekers as there are receivers, so at any moment options are limited for either. It is the task of the Ex-Fi types to make themselves attractive to the Ex-Te seekers. Ex-Fi doesn't really have a choice of what they get; they are unskilled at finding what they desire and are likely to waste time trying. (I can personally vouch on this.)
    However, they know how to make themselves attractive and desirable. (something they learn from meta-Fi types who may or may not actually be capable of putting their ideas to use, depending on their slave types.) Likewise, Ex-Te types waste time trying to make themselves either desirable or attractive; rather, they should seek to find that which they are looking for before someone else does, and put energy into that.

    Contrast Einstein (an ENTp-INTj) with Audrey Hepburn. (INFp-ESFp) Audrey effortlessly made herself attractive and appealing; Einstein's hair was a frazzle.
    Interesting. Well I'm not sure yet about the above situation (we can forget about it, if it's a bad example) but I do know that he was the one who "discovered" me and very quietly over several months dropped hints (mostly non-verbal) that he wanted to be friends with me. I didn't realize it for awhile. He's ISFp (not sure of exertion type yet. Probably ISXx).
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    Interesting. Well I'm not sure yet about the above situation (we can forget about it, if it's a bad example) but I do know that he was the one who "discovered" me and very quietly over several months dropped hints (mostly non-verbal) that he wanted to be friends with me. I didn't realize it for awhile. He's ISFp (not sure of exertion type yet. Probably ISXx).
    My ENFj-ISTp girlfriend and I met the same way. She had made a habit of watching me head across the parking lot to my car from her porch. (I never noticed.) I made a few overtures towards meeting her as a friend just out of curiosity. One night I was walking about and she approached me with a suggestion that we walk together. She told me about herself and by the end of it all we had grown close. (it was kinda depressing, the history, as young ENFj histories often are. (rejection of their Fi and whatnot, repressed memories and the like.)) Since then our conflicting energies have been a drag on our relationship -- we always seem to be trying to "grab hold of" and control each other --, but she always works to patch it up. She's determined to make the relationship last as long as it can, is what she tells me. She's very much a cooking, cleaning type person who likes to make things look nice, and she's always got some new plan for us to go somewhere together or do something. (that's a key point, her plans are always concern doing something with somebody else, something to strengthen a bond.) And all of her relationships are very concrete: she doesn't like poorly defined relations with anyone.

    We were talking last night about how she is always making these plans for us to do something together -- always with the aim of making me cheerful -- but always finds herself trying to produce the enthusiasm to carry the plan through. (which, a la +/-, is backwards for ENFj, something that YOU as an INFp would think to do, yes?) This often makes her look like an idiot, because she goes completely overboard in trying to induce the charge. (very cute though!) Her plans go awry, she goes to the person who she knows can change it, and executes some kind of emotional harangue. (she's half-deaf, so people usually feel sorry for her, and again, she's extremely cute.)

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    Ex-Te, like all elements, rests on its contrary, Ex-Ti. Ex-Ti offers the context on which the solid relationship rests. For example, a marriage rests on the institution of the same. A corporate merger requires accompanying reorganization; a chemical bond must comply with the arcane rules of chemistry, its electron valence levels and laws of polar balance. Alliances rest on guidelines for mutual conduct. Bonds need rules, or else they are liable to break.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Since then our conflicting energies have been a drag on our relationship -- we always seem to be trying to "grab hold of" and control each other --, but she always works to patch it up.

    We were talking last night about how she is always making these plans for us to do something together -- always with the aim of making me cheerful -- but always finds herself trying to produce the enthusiasm to carry the plan through. (which, a la +/-, is backwards for ENFj, something that YOU as an INFp would think to do, yes?) This often makes her look like an idiot, because she goes completely overboard in trying to induce the charge. (very cute though!)
    She sounds rather charming. I don't have any trouble producing enthusiasm, true. Interesting that you can really sense your conflicting energies. I wonder what my husband's dual type is. He's ESFj but I can't quite figure out his slave type. I need to think about it more. His suggestions and plans seem maybe ENFj possibly but I could be wrong. I'm not real great at recognizing Te and Ti in slave types. Maybe ENTj.
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    My mom is an INTj-ENTj. She is a grammer nazi, seemingly always correcting my pronunciation, spelling, what-have-you. She is an English major, true; but why did she choose english? She has criticized me, too, for making "too many assumptions". She is really bitter about having to end any relationship with anybody; she can barely stand to, except on logical grounds. She's drawn to business environments, although she hates management. She's the kind of person who can look at your business, and critique it analytically. She's always trying to shore up my relationship with her by executing some plan she usually hasn't annouced beforehand.

    I suspect Donald Rumsfeld is another INTj-ENTj. INTj-ENTjs have a very distinctive appearance: almost always wearing glasses; strong, angular features; a squint-eyed grin. They are very data-intensive, normally humourless people. I don't think I've ever seen my mother get emotionally carried away about anything, something I often do because I can effortlessly raise my own mood. (now that I think about it, she does get carried away when watching Tony Stuart on NASCAR, but only all at once, at the end of the race.) Her mood always seems dependent on external factors.

    Before I continue, I need to understand exactly what Fi metabolism is. I find it difficult to conceptualize how one "raises" a persistent emotive quality like attraction for this, repulsion for that, etc..

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    OK, I think I've figured Fi out, now.

    -Fi is the observation of deficiencies of characters, made on basis of whether or not a person will negatively disturb systems outside themselves by the conduct of their motivations. +Fi aspires to actually decline the level of intersystem disturbances that now exist. (I think you can see that in J.K. Rowling's use of controversial character traits (like Dumbledor's homosexuality) to raise the level of civility on a large scale; and let's face it, she has succeeded. Obviously Jesus' message was intended to achieve similar ends.)

    Then, Ex-Fi is the actual conduct of performing these adjustments. I think I see this in myself; in fact, it explains why I enjoy playing RPGs as much as I do, and enjoy their stories more than most other fiction. It is the moral message: my instincts draw me to statements of moral fact. By means of these facts I can create a new era of possibility by means of the meta-Ni/Ex-Ne.

    Ex-Fi types are effective at bringing a sense of civility to people; they seek means by which to effect it.

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    That's a good -Fi definition. I think my friends' wife was negatively disposed towards me at first because, as you say, she thought I might negatively disturb her marriage by my conduct. LOL I recognized this and have sought to actively do things to ease her worry such as purposely not trying as hard to get to know her because I sense that she needs space, not giving them that tin of cookies at Christmas that I was going to give them because it could cause doubt, saying hello casually and being friendly when I see her but not intruding into their family too much at this point. I guess those are Ex-Fi examples in the situation? Or maybe it's just common sense.

    My husband is definitely not the way you describe ENTjs. He's maybe ESFj-ENFj or something. I need to think about him more.
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    Just now, I deduced the relationship between the dual-types as the source of frustration.

    We are always trying to balance our psyche: when we raise the content level of one function to increase that of another (process/result), we are shifting the balance between the raised block and its contrary. (the ego to the id, the superego to the superid) To restore the balance and keep the equilibrium of the psyche, we must forsake the enriched block in favor of access to the impoverished block; this is the way of our thought, and that to which we devote the substance of our lives to attaining. However, let us not forget that either act of imbalance or balance is simulated until it is performed by the exertion elements. Therefore, we face a possibility of not realizing by our own efforts the balance/imbalance which we have sought, due to the unequal quality of our exerted energies a la Model-A. This situation is contrary to the psychic urge to entandromia (Jung's terms for a system that seeks self-regulation) and is a failure to reflect in the external world the state of one's self: it is a failure to self-substantiate. Certainly this is the substance of frustration.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Just now, I deduced the relationship between the dual-types as the source of frustration.

    We are always trying to balance our psyche: when we raise the content level of one function to increase that of another (process/result), we are shifting the balance between the raised block and its contrary. (the ego to the id, the superego to the superid) To restore the balance and keep the equilibrium of the psyche, we must forsake the enriched block in favor of access to the impoverished block; this is the way of our thought, and that to which we devote the substance of our lives to attaining. However, let us not forget that either act of imbalance or balance is simulated until it is performed by the exertion elements. Therefore, we face a possibility of not realizing by our own efforts the balance/imbalance which we have sought, due to the unequal quality of our exerted energies a la Model-A. This situation is contrary to the psychic urge to entandromia (Jung's terms for a system that seeks self-regulation) and is a failure to reflect in the external world the state of one's self: it is a failure to self-substantiate. Certainly this is the substance of frustration.
    So I might feel frustration when my Ni/Fe and Ne/Fi are jockeying for position?
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    So I might feel frustration when my Ni/Fe and Ne/Fi are jockeying for position?
    That's not what I meant.

    May I ask how you feel frustration? What things tend to frustrate you in life?

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    That's not what I meant.

    May I ask how you feel frustration? What things tend to frustrate you in life?
    what a loaded question! Sure....um, you mean besides my children not listening to me? Let me see....I guess I have always felt frustrated that I can't commit to one thing when it comes to a career or something that I might want to do long-term. I get bored very easily and I tend to jump around a little bit (and like to be free to do so) from one thing to another. This sometimes makes me feel like a flake and like I have nothing to contribute. I recognize that I love the freedom and yet I feel that I really should be able to focus. Focus is not something I have much of. But part of me wonders if that "I should be able to focus" thing is a pressure I've felt from the larger society and maybe not so much within myself. I don't know. I've heard myself say things like "my college education was worthless" (which isn't true and I adored college but feels true sometimes since I never really had a career. I was an english lit major at a liberal arts college, btw and I always say I could have gone back to school for 5 more majors because there are so many interesting things to learn) I've also felt the pull of simultaneously wanting to be liked by everyone and not caring what most people think of me. For example when I go to a party, do I want to be outgoing and talk to people (if I've had caffeine) or do I just want to stand in the corner and watch for a bit or find one interesting person to talk to and spend the whole evening with them. There's a part of me that wants to be liked and wants to know everyone but my natural inclination is to stand to the side and watch. Only I'm not completely comfortable with that either. I've noticed that some introverts (namely my SEI friend) can stand to the side and look comfortable not talking, just watching. I don't feel comfortable just watching. I feel like a loser or bored. LOL
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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    what a loaded question! Sure....um, you mean besides my children not listening to me? Let me see....I guess I have always felt frustrated that I can't commit to one thing when it comes to a career or something that I might want to do long-term. I get bored very easily and I tend to jump around a little bit (and like to be free to do so) from one thing to another. This sometimes makes me feel like a flake and like I have nothing to contribute. I recognize that I love the freedom and yet I feel that I really should be able to focus. Focus is not something I have much of. But part of me wonders if that "I should be able to focus" thing is a pressure I've felt from the larger society and maybe not so much within myself. I don't know. I've heard myself say things like "my college education was worthless" (which isn't true and I adored college but feels true sometimes since I never really had a career. I was an english lit major at a liberal arts college, btw and I always say I could have gone back to school for 5 more majors because there are so many interesting things to learn) I've also felt the pull of simultaneously wanting to be liked by everyone and not caring what most people think of me. For example when I go to a party, do I want to be outgoing and talk to people (if I've had caffeine) or do I just want to stand in the corner and watch for a bit or find one interesting person to talk to and spend the whole evening with them. There's a part of me that wants to be liked and wants to know everyone but my natural inclination is to stand to the side and watch. Only I'm not completely comfortable with that either. I've noticed that some introverts (namely my SEI friend) can stand to the side and look comfortable not talking, just watching. I don't feel comfortable just watching. I feel like a loser or bored. LOL
    First off, you don't always have this lack of focus, do you? It only appears when you are trying to produce something larger than yourself, something that accounts not only for your own idiosyncrasies, but for everyone's. If you choose to make something only for yourself, well then you know what you want and you think you know what others want, too, so to make something for yourself will make things for others. (+Ni/-Ne program, in Hitta's notation) But you're mature: you know that others think differently from you, and that there are as many different possibilities as there are different views. (+Ni/+Ne) Because your exertion elements transcend along with their master elements whenever you take the viewpoint of adulthood/maturity, your Ex-(-)Ni program function becomes Ex-(+)Ni, and all a sudden you have all of these multitudes of different choices and paths available to you that you are perfectly fine with managing for yourself.

    The problem of these choices is, from where does the energy for them come? They need +Si to run, but -Se interferes with and depresses it. So you have all these choices and no energy for them... or do you? There are those who would indulge your energies... I think you know who they are: the people with reversed signs, eh? But to what end would the exercise them? When you figure that out, let me know, because I'm finding myself in the same situation with +Te and +Fi... (for all these great conversations I imagine us -- by which I mean humanity -- having, where is the good will to have them? Where do I find it?)

    On the matter of "talking, not just watching", that's a matter of having an extroverted slave type: extrovert slave types feel the impulse to set their energies into the world, to get it moving, on behalf of realizing introvert aspirations.

    Now about your kids not listening to you: that's actually what I was referring to. Talk is . Your arguments are probably perceived by some to be questionable, because you're always trying to head off signs of -Fi. (haven't thought about this much, so no immediate details. Do teach. ) by means of proposing a constructive argument. (+Te) Ex-Te is your exertion agenda, your social agenda that you attempt to acheive by means of fulfilling your hidden agenda: you want to create a better social discourse by observing +Ti, and using it as a means of guiding discussion in the right direction. (Not clear on how they relate) However the arguments you would have people make are the very arguments you are criticised for, being intended to fight off -Fi; basically you want people to discuss how they can be more civil.

    Clearly, I've more thinking to do regarding all of this....
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-17-2008 at 04:31 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    First off, you don't always have this lack of focus, do you? It only appears when you are trying to produce something larger than yourself, something that accounts not only for your own idiosyncrasies, but for everyone's. If you choose to make something only for yourself, well then you know what you want and you think you know what others want, too, so to make something for yourself will make things for others. (+Ni/-Ne program, in Hitta's notation) But you're mature: you know that others think differently from you, and that there are as many different possibilities as there are different views. (+Ni/+Ne) Because your exertion elements transcend along with their master elements whenever you take the viewpoint of adulthood/maturity, your Ex-(-)Ni program function becomes Ex-(+)Ni, and all a sudden you have all of these multitudes of different choices and paths available to you that you are perfectly fine with managing for yourself.

    The problem of these choices is, from where does the energy for them come? They need +Si to run, but -Se interferes with and depresses it. So you have all these choices and no energy for them... or do you? There are those who would indulge your energies... I think you know who they are: the people with reversed signs, eh? But to what end would the exercise them? When you figure that out, let me know, because I'm finding myself in the same situation with +Te and +Fi... (for all these great conversations I imagine us -- by which I mean humanity -- having, where is the good will to have them? Where do I find it?)

    On the matter of "talking, not just watching", that's a matter of having an extroverted slave type: extrovert slave types feel the impulse to set their energies into the world, to get it moving, on behalf of realizing introvert aspirations.

    Now about your kids not listening to you: that's actually what I was referring to. Talk is . Your arguments are probably perceived by some to be questionable, because you're always trying to head off signs of -Fi. (haven't thought about this much, so no immediate details. Do teach. ) by means of proposing a constructive argument. (+Te) Ex-Te is your exertion agenda, your social agenda that you attempt to acheive by means of fulfilling your hidden agenda: you want to create a better social discourse by observing +Ti, and using it as a means of guiding discussion in the right direction. (Not clear on how they relate) However the arguments you would have people make are the very arguments you are criticised for, being intended to fight off -Fi; basically you want people to discuss how they can be more civil.

    Clearly, I've more thinking to do regarding all of this....
    I'll have to mull that over for awhile and try to figure it out In any case, I think I'm through with looking to other people to provide these energies. How can they? I'm drawn to Si and Se types especially but unless we were in some business or joint effort, they're not going to help me get my own projects done, I have to do it myself. Blech, I'm feeling crabby about my life today so I'll come back to this later....
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    After a lot of thought about the relationship between the master and slave types, I've come to the conclusion that the master type uses the dual-type to observe information "sub-aspects": aspects of a given IM element that are distinct on basis of their ability to influence aspects of elements apart from their own. For example, some structures influence sound, hearing, taste, etc., and so don't. There is a question not only of "can I use this aspect", but also "is this aspect relevant to what I want -- what I need -- to do?"

    If indeed the IM elements correlate to the brain, then there must exist "sub-elements" in the brain that one must choose observance of only after one has invoked the parent IM element correlate; thus choosing to use, for example, Ne prevents one from seeing the Se slave to Ti master at the same time.

    To learn more about the dual-type functions, we must necessarily improve our knowledge of the IM elements themselves first.

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    I've made some inroads into understanding the phemenological manifestation of dual-type information. For purposes of illustration, let us consider the Ti master/Si slave pairing.

    When one changes structure, one changes the transformed object's other rational components as well. For example, combining two compounds means that the work of either may change, and this work may or may not be of assistance to the sustenance of the work. Consider the case of the corporate merger, in which case you have two existing organizations each of whose Te has been fine tuned to eliminate conflicts between departments. The merger, if not well planned, will change all of this. What if one company had a small art staff, and the other a large one? Does one put them all together? Obviously if you just leave them alone, then there will be no immediate problem. The problem occurs when it comes time to cut staff. What is the purpose of the company, and if you are going to leave each division to its lonesome and manage it individually on basis of profit, then why not just leave them seperate? Of course that's not the case, because the resource pool now belongs to the ENTIRE company and there is no one to argue on the failing division's behalf. Of course there would have been nothing wrong with say, AOL exec Steve Case arguing for continued investment in Time Warner on AOL's behalf; it's just not how traditional organizations work. For one thing, AOL's Steve Case was not the chief executive; he did not have the authority to make these decisions as per the merger agreement. One organization, Time Warner, was essentially the controlling partner. It was not a true merger, but an acquisition. Had it been a true merger, the work would have been shared equally between the two parties, and they would have worked to merge their operations into one unified vision. As it was, Time Warner distrusted Case and AOL, and kept their operations seperate. Conflict between the -Fe internal dynamics within either -Ti substructure of the +Ti superstructure degraded either organization. It was a case of +Ti without -Ti, and the Si processes of either were in conflict for the same resources. +Si had not been offered to increase the interdependence of the companies, leading to intramural conflict over the limited resources needed to support non-inclusive -Ne visions. Either company had failed to prepare for its +Ti reorganizations by creating the necessary +Fe to encompass the superstructure required for either, therefore their mutual creation of +Ti had an adverse effect on the Si of either company and the merger failed.

    The point is that Ti can indeed affect Si, if indirectly. Master/Slave theory works because you don't need to understand the details of the Ti/Si relationship to recognize situations where the organization is influential on the health of its subdivisions; rather, you only need to remember those situations where Si dependence on Ti was demonstrated. You say, "from past experience I know that this +Ti will adversely affect this -Si", without getting into the details. Why would you? To +Ti/-Si, it's only natural.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    The point is that Ti can indeed affect Si, if indirectly. Master/Slave theory works because you don't need to understand the details of the Ti/Si relationship to recognize situations where the organization is influential on the health of its subdivisions; rather, you only need to remember those situations where Si dependence on Ti was demonstrated. You say, "from past experience I know that this +Ti will adversely affect this -Si", without getting into the details. Why would you? To +Ti/-Si, it's only natural.
    I like your merger example. The whole theory continues to make a lot of sense to me even though I can't explain it to others very well. I'd like to spend more time observing how the dual types affect each other in my own self and in those around me. I just haven't had the time to think about it!

    (haven't been on the forums much lately--our house was robbed recently and I need to get a new laptop!)

    Okay here's one thing I observed regarding this robbery. I was feeling really sad about it and couldn't get the thought out of my head (irrational, I know) that if I could only talk to the thieves and befriend them, that somehow they wouldn't want to harm me. It was like I had this belief that if I could just focus my energies on developing a friendly rapport with them, things would be okay. ?? I'm thinking that's my slave Fi at work or something? If I could only get them to LIKE me, I could fix the whole situation? LOL!
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    Quote Originally Posted by redbaron View Post
    I like your merger example. The whole theory continues to make a lot of sense to me even though I can't explain it to others very well. I'd like to spend more time observing how the dual types affect each other in my own self and in those around me. I just haven't had the time to think about it!

    (haven't been on the forums much lately--our house was robbed recently and I need to get a new laptop!)

    Okay here's one thing I observed regarding this robbery. I was feeling really sad about it and couldn't get the thought out of my head (irrational, I know) that if I could only talk to the thieves and befriend them, that somehow they wouldn't want to harm me. It was like I had this belief that if I could just focus my energies on developing a friendly rapport with them, things would be okay. ?? I'm thinking that's my slave Fi at work or something? If I could only get them to LIKE me, I could fix the whole situation? LOL!
    Actually that sounds more like IM Te and Si: discussion can produce harmony.

    Your superego block: meta-Te/Ex-Ti (discussion of structure) A restructuring of the situation would be absolutely necessary to redirect their civic roles away from thievery; hell, maybe you might even get your stuff back. (Se aspect of tolerable Si) But, they could also take advantage of this belief and kill you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Actually that sounds more like IM Te and Si: discussion can produce harmony.

    Your superego block: meta-Te/Ex-Ti (discussion of structure) A restructuring of the situation would be absolutely necessary to redirect their civic roles away from thievery; hell, maybe you might even get your stuff back. (Se aspect of tolerable Si) But, they could also take advantage of this belief and kill you.
    LOL! Seriously....this sounds like a dream I would have. (I've had dreams like that in the past where there's some bad guy and I try to get him to believe I'm not mad at him and that we can be friends and he goes and betrays me anyway).
    IEI-Fe 4w3

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    well. where to start here.

    as far as your slave type i have no idea what youre talking about. i'm not sure i'm convinced you have to take on some other type since each individual is already fundamentally dual.


    lets see....yeah i think introverts are going to be dominant. they have a world view or some kind of automatic respect for order on the external parts of themselves. they begin and end with an introverted function, at least in model a. the extroverts are always going to be this exertion type i think although we do contain an introverted self, basically, and we're also busy creating some type of internal order which can go beyond asperations, i think, into some kind of concrete role in society or a family.


    lets see finally....you know this had only occured to me as being something the aggressor victims would experience. i guess it could transcend into the caretaker infantile, but i would think it would take on a different tone.


    anyway I personally shy away from these roles we have with master and slave. I certainly am willing to experience my dual as a dominant (in this case male) which is strange since i'm the "programmer" but i can also serve as a major grounding point for them which can bring them back to me so i can win them over and make them mine and make sure they're ok. however its something i relish without describing to my partner and its something we both experience and it's pleasurable and fufilling and i dont think we assume any other type other than our own (which is already dual).

    Erich Fromm said in The Art of Loving that sadomasochism is one of the three attempts at solving the problem of love that will fail. the other two are social belonging and orgiasm (hedonism).
    Lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post

    EDIT:
    I've thought about it, and given that my slave type is ENFj, it would seem that I attempt to raise others' instinctive/genetic potential as a means of making them more appealing to me; that is, I try to make people all they can be, or to see a system become all that it can be. This makes them more attractive to me, and to others who share my instincts. ...On that basis, I would have to go a step further and state that I attempt to bring out people's potential to be more like me, or at least something that I find appealing. Yes, I can see that in myself. I do that very often.


    I think this is you actually trying to inspire others to be healthy and sort of projecting your hidden agenda onto them ... or really youre kind of backhandedly dual seeking since your duals are perfectionists. hmmmm?


    introverted intuition at the secondary level....we bad, we bad.
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty View Post
    I think this is you actually trying to inspire others to be healthy and sort of projecting your hidden agenda onto them ... or really youre kind of backhandedly dual seeking since your duals are perfectionists. hmmmm?


    introverted intuition at the secondary level....we bad, we bad.
    Actually I've thought about it and I've determined that I got this backwards. (the whole IM thing.) As an INTj, I use the program aspect of Ne (which seems to correlate to behavior) to identify behavioral statics in people and bring a sense of order to an otherwise mysterious and unpredictable psyche.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Actually I've thought about it and I've determined that I got this backwards. (the whole IM thing.) As an INTj, I use the program aspect of Ne (which seems to correlate to behavior) to identify behavioral statics in people and bring a sense of order to an otherwise mysterious and unpredictable psyche.

    I agree with you, actually...after I posted and layed down I came to the same conclusion that its the fi/ne aspect of your dual relationship that you were describing. It was interesting that you attributed that action to the ENFJ. I dont know if what you're describing is Conscientious enfj type action or enfp vigillance. Anyway not to over complicate things....I guess, though, it could also be the inventor aspect of your personality...which makes me want to discuss duality in the model a.

    if you ever feel inclined to discuss my other post here i'd be interested on your thoughts.

    all the best,
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    you know and the mention of enfp makes me wonder if you're actually describing a supervisory position ... as far as semi-dualizing its hard for me to think of that relationship as being very active outwardly i dont know if you share the same experience.
    Lefty
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    Quote Originally Posted by lefty View Post
    I agree with you, actually...after I posted and layed down I came to the same conclusion that its the fi/ne aspect of your dual relationship that you were describing. It was interesting that you attributed that action to the ENFJ. I dont know if what you're describing is Conscientious enfj type action or enfp vigillance. Anyway not to over complicate things....I guess, though, it could also be the inventor aspect of your personality...which makes me want to discuss duality in the model a.

    if you ever feel inclined to discuss my other post here i'd be interested on your thoughts.

    all the best,
    Let me explain what I mean by "Ne program". The internal behavioral range of an object (it's program; domain vs. range) is. When I use Ne, I see that aspect of it better than aspects such as "internal content". I see that too, but I tend to have less confidence in it, and am more likely to be wrong about it. Take all those different manifestations of Ne that Augusta described; seperate them; and ask how they would relate to each other. That's what dual-type seeks to ultimately explain. In my case, I would call the program aspect of Ne "Ni" because it's sequential. But it's a different relationship than of say, Ne built upon Ni, (as per Model B) which is the relationship between history and possibility. ("until X happens, Y is not possible") Ni in the former case is a "motor energy"; in the latter case, it's an observation. Action != observation.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Let me explain what I mean by "Ne program". The internal behavioral range of an object (it's program; domain vs. range) is. When I use Ne, I see that aspect of it better than aspects such as "internal content". I see that too, but I tend to have less confidence in it, and am more likely to be wrong about it. Take all those different manifestations of Ne that Augusta described; seperate them; and ask how they would relate to each other. That's what dual-type seeks to ultimately explain. In my case, I would call the program aspect of Ne "Ni" because it's sequential. But it's a different relationship than of say, Ne built upon Ni, (as per Model B) which is the relationship between history and possibility. ("until X happens, Y is not possible") Ni in the former case is a "motor energy"; in the latter case, it's an observation. Action != observation.
    oy vey
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    Until recently I had forgotten about the personal attribute of dual-type theory: one's relations to the world at large. Because the world around oneself is a constant stream of energies constantly interacting, one's own energy is liable to clash with those around oneself, or otherwise relate on basis of the 16 classical socionics type relations. (in immediate, physical form) Apprehending the relation of one's own efforts to those of another's is the basis for much of the competitive drive we may feel towards someone.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Until recently I had forgotten about the personal attribute of dual-type theory: one's relations to the world at large. Because the world around oneself is a constant stream of energies constantly interacting, one's own energy is liable to clash with those around oneself, or otherwise relate on basis of the 16 classical socionics type relations. (in immediate, physical form) Apprehending the relation of one's own efforts to those of another's is the basis for much of the competitive drive we may feel towards someone.
    it explains oral sex, too. hehehe.
    Lefty
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    Seriously, now.

    I think I've reached a conclusion as to why we use the exertion elements.

    Consider, IM element processing is our means of problem solving. We first observe an element's state (presence or lack of presence) as a problem. We see this as a problem because of what it threatens to produce. This is our background functioning. Our solution for solving the problematic situation is to reinforce our most confident solution to the problem with a new production. This is how we use function blocks to problem solve.

    So if we use information metabolism to identify and solve probelms -- things that we know are there, things we think about -- then what do we use exertion for?

    I suggest, to take control of our environment.

    Our environment is a constantly swirling stream of energy. We are a part of it, and if we aren't "in sync" with it, we threaten to be busted apart by the swirl. It is important to interact with and to mold the swirl to maintain our sense of self-integrity and coherency, to remain "us" and not our environment. (for if we cannot remove ourselves from forces outside us, we are at their mercy.)

    When we are confronted with an energy that threatens to take control of our lives from us, we are intimidated and discomforted. What we want, is to regain control by creating energy around us that we are comfortable manipulating. This is the purpose of our exertion producer functions, to create a disturbance in the infringing flow, and then to use that disturbance as an opportunity to create flow we are comfortable with. (defined by our exertion acceptors.)

    In summary, our exertion blocks exist to help us re-establish control of our surroundings and to acheive thereby a modicum of comfort against them.

    I do think we can apprehend exerted energies as stable perceptions and ideas, but the question is how the metabolism type accesses exerted information to create this understanding. I'm doubtful an answer can be found until the exertion type is well understood. (I think that although we can transmute perception into energy, we should also be capable of transmuting energy into metabolism... this I suspect is the role of producer functions.)

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    Default Dual-type theory: slave types - what are they really?

    After returning to the forum after a long hiatus, one thing I see is mention of slave types in various posts. I'm looking for a brief, simple explanation of this. Thanks.
    LII-Ne with strong EII tendencies, 6w7-9w1-3w4 so/sp/sx, INxP



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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Seriously, now.

    I think I've reached a conclusion as to why we use the exertion elements.

    Consider, IM element processing is our means of problem solving. We first observe an element's state (presence or lack of presence) as a problem. We see this as a problem because of what it threatens to produce. This is our background functioning. Our solution for solving the problematic situation is to reinforce our most confident solution to the problem with a new production. This is how we use function blocks to problem solve.

    So if we use information metabolism to identify and solve probelms -- things that we know are there, things we think about -- then what do we use exertion for?

    I suggest, to take control of our environment.

    Our environment is a constantly swirling stream of energy. We are a part of it, and if we aren't "in sync" with it, we threaten to be busted apart by the swirl. It is important to interact with and to mold the swirl to maintain our sense of self-integrity and coherency, to remain "us" and not our environment. (for if we cannot remove ourselves from forces outside us, we are at their mercy.)

    When we are confronted with an energy that threatens to take control of our lives from us, we are intimidated and discomforted. What we want, is to regain control by creating energy around us that we are comfortable manipulating. This is the purpose of our exertion producer functions, to create a disturbance in the infringing flow, and then to use that disturbance as an opportunity to create flow we are comfortable with. (defined by our exertion acceptors.)

    In summary, our exertion blocks exist to help us re-establish control of our surroundings and to acheive thereby a modicum of comfort against them.

    I do think we can apprehend exerted energies as stable perceptions and ideas, but the question is how the metabolism type accesses exerted information to create this understanding. I'm doubtful an answer can be found until the exertion type is well understood. (I think that although we can transmute perception into energy, we should also be capable of transmuting energy into metabolism... this I suspect is the role of producer functions.)
    Oh wow, this is so good! But the description makes it sound like we only use our exertion elements in the face of danger, in a negative way. Are there ways that we use exertion in a positive way? (not when threatened or uncomfortable)
    IEI-Fe 4w3

  39. #39
    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Try the Non-Socioncs Type Theories forum.

  40. #40
    Ti centric krieger's Avatar
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    It's a secundary type. Stable just like the master type. It's much less obvious in a person's behavior and only really visible when you compare master type identicals with eachother.

    Tcaudilllg and I attemt to catagorize people further using slave types, as does Victor Gulenko.

    As for how it all "works", we have some dissociated theories on that... Tcaudilllg claims a very defined understanding of the phenomenom so it might be best to ask him about that.

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