Re: "Hate to break it to you", or "You are so thin skinned", it's because she thinks ethically-focused dongles add something to the quality of her arguments rather than detract from them, as many other iEIs (and SEIs) do. @Bertrand .
@Aylen my question was about what you think about you and your shit Te actually, not this.
What you answered with looks like some attempt to appease me and seems to suggest you simply don't want to type Trump as your dual just because you have empathy for your dual.
It doesn't have to be "on trial", but I asked you a question. Which you can feel free to ignore if you choose.
You're the one who chose to engage me in the first place by telling me not to take things so seriously. My post in this thread didn't necessarily have anything to do with you.
The idea that people won't type Trump SLE, (because they can't type well) made you want to kill yourself seemed a bit ludicrous to me so I responded with the dove pic. Was I meant to take that serious too? Come on, you reacted like you usually do and insult logic.
Bit extreme, don't you think... I am done now.Sigh.
The fact that Trump is SLE makes me sometimes want to kill myself.
The fact that there are people on 16T who can't type well enough to realize he's SLE also sometimes makes me want to kill myself.
"When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"
@Aylen Since I'm pretty sure you do think I'm your dual, and you told me my existence or behaviour or whatever "insults logic", and you also seem to think that Trump is a Ti polr and a dimwitted caveman, you now have one example where an SLE you know is similar to Trump in lieu of the one SLE you mentioned you know IRL.
niffer, I don't think @Aylen was trying to insult you. Personally, I think you're remarkably spiffy for an SLE (and not an ESI ), (smart, perceptive, even-tempered, reasonable, helpful, I've got to stop now before this turns into a description of scouting), and if I can see this, so can she.
Aylen was just saying that SLE's in general get a bad rep (and I agree, even though I know some who are kind of rough around the edges), and that picture of Trump with a dove was almost certainly meant to make peace. One thing I've noticed about IEI's is that they tend to step into a convo and pour oil on troubled waters. Starfall does this, too, and when I see it, I have to admire their diplomatic skills.
I understand no one wants to claim him. Whether we agree or not, I put some consideration into my final typing of him. They are rather long posts so I don't expect people will read them thoroughly then make a counter argument based on what I have written. I am tired of Trump for the day though. Now I just want to watch a movie.
"When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"
Adam got some formidable game going on these days y'all look at him go, my benefactor heart is bursting
Sx/SoMAKE 16TYPES MEME AGAIN!!
378 | Mover Shaker
@Adam Strange My nature is to be skeptical of kindness or emotional soothing, which is kind of a neuroticism I guess. I do appreciate you Adam and your help with smoothing things over.
I just feel like Trump being SLE should be obvious, and sometimes I feel really strongly when it comes to some information about reality being "objectively true". When I report information I do not feel like I'm reporting information that is subjectively true to me for my ego or whatever, and I don't like the idea of knocking down others' ideas just for fun or for validation or because of my relationship to them. I don't think that I don't have an ego or that others are conversely non-objective. It just upsets me when I feel others are cut off or something to what is so obvious for me, and if they had enough overall knowledge available to them, should be structurally obvious and sound too. (I'm like "Sad!" like D. Trump.) A lack of perceptiveness and easily usable information in an environment I'm in with others is worrisome to me, and being concerned about their ability to process it is also stressful for me and I know that probably comes across as patronizing and douchey and is a bit presumptuous about other people's abilities, but it's true. I just want the bar to be raised and I also don't like ignorance. It's not the people, but the factors that allow for ignorance in the first place that I don't like, and I want to kill that with fire or kill myself because I really don't enjoy it.
But, you might be worrying about this too much. When I first got into some disagreements with some people here, I really wondered how someone (and I wondered if that someone was them or me) could be so screwed up. Now, I just let it go. Imagine! An e8 just letting something go. Lol.
What's really clinched Trump as a SLE in my mind is 4D Fi. He really does not know who to trust and is not confident in making decisions regarding that matter. He's constantly in a tug of war between various factions each trying to pull him in their own direction and he's constantly bouncing back and forth between them. And he seems to over-react to disloyalty. The whole concept of trust and loyalty seems to be a big black hole for him that's constantly frustrating him.
Ugh, now that I think of it, my depiction of him sounds more Fi suggestive than Fi POLR. LIE? I'm confident he's an extrovert, I'm confident he's an Se valuer, and I'm confident he's logic over ethics. SLE or LIE. I could see both.
Talking about Trump types and integral type of the USA :
I'm actually starting to think that Trump could actually be SEE.
Here's Gulenko's argument for Trump as SEE, which makes sense and blah blah blah:
Socionics. Donald Trump. Personality Type - SEE - Politician - ESFP - Youtube
But how does it actually go? I think that Trump actually represents Elvis more than someone like Madonna:
People say things like "Well Trump is so calm and "rational"! Therefore he must be SLE". But if you actually look, then so is Elvis, even moreso than Madonna. Also there's the stereotype that if someone is brash and reasonably "smart", then he must be SLE. Pretty silly stereotype. It's not as if feelers are being emotive and spewing emotions 24/7, and actually EXTxs especially the EXTps tend to be very emotional. Also no matter how much you hate Trump, he is actually pretty smart and intelligent.
Trump and Elvis are actually very similar, down to being very sober most of the time, and occasionally flashing a smile when something is funny and goes back to being calm and sober again. While Madonna is someone who says things like "Don't fuck with me" and heartily laughs at jokes. She enjoys and goes along with the merry atmosphere of Dave Letterman. Trump doesn't really give a shit about Letterman, and just wants to talk about more serious things. He is neither coaxed nor provoked by Letterman, he just doesn't care.
There are more similarities between Trump and Elvis than Trump and Madonna.
If you actually want to look at Fi-PoLR, then there's Madonna. She says offensive things left and right, and she doesn't understand why she can't swear on American TV or whatever, and she challenges such notions, like she wants to destroy those "manners" so she can say whatever she wants without censorship. While Trump is even diplomatic, he never ever says anything offensive.
He seems genuinely dejected that the US is not "getting along with Russia", and says things like "It would be wonderful if we could get along with Russia", which might be creative-Fi. He understands and tries to mend relationships, for the greater good:PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP: It would be wonderful, as we were discussing just a little while ago, if NATO and our country could get along with Russia. Right now we’re not getting along with Russia at all. We may be at an all-time low in terms of relationship with Russia. This has built for a long period of time. But we’re going to see what happens. Putin is the leader of Russia. Russia is a strong country. We’re a very, very strong country.
But all in all, these are all fairly "shallow" analysis as Gulenko puts it. Perhaps we should be focusing on his overall behavior.
I'm not saying that this is 100%, but it's a very plausible one.
Extroverted Intuition = "Intueor" or "Ideas" = I
Introverted Intuition =*"Tempus" or "Time" = T
Extroverted Sensation =*"Factor"*or "Force" = F
Introverted Sensation =*"Sensus"*or "Senses" = S
Extroverted Ethics =*"Emoveo" or "Emotions" = E
Introverted Ethics =*"Relatio" or "Relations" =*R
Extroverted Logic = "Profiteor"*or "Pragmatism" =*P
Introverted Logic =*"Lex" or "Laws" =*L
Donald John Trump is an American businessman, real estate developer, book author, television show host and 45th President of the United States. He is the son of the late real-estate developer Fred Trump. Trump has a Bachelor's degree in Economics from the prestigious Wharton School of the University of Pennsylvania, but even before graduating he was already working in his father's company.
Trump oversaw several high-profile real estate and building developments in New York City in the 1970s and 1980s, during a time when the city's economic future was dubious and investing there was far from being obviously wise. Trump's projects were often controversial, leading him to become increasingly a public figure, culminating with his construction of Trump Tower in 1983. That was controversial due to its (alleged) questionable taste; the - at the time - dubious business case for such a project in still-then depressed Manhattan; to the demolition of the Art Deco Bonwit Teller building that had previously stood there; and to Trump's increased use of his own name and brand to associate his projects with himself.
At the time Trump was in his thirties, and for an analysis of his type it is useful to take a look at how he came across in interviews of the time. Rather than the later, better known version, who is more inclined to rely on bombast, bragging, self-promotion and extravagant, controversial or even perhaps shocking remarks, the Donald Trump of the early 1980s appeared as a calm, rational, even modest man who showed little emotion or passion as he described in technical detail the reasoning behind his building projects and defended them against criticism, relying on factual, technical arguments (or seemingly so). At the time, Trump started to become identified with NYC's returning optimism since he (by luck or smarts) managed to invest there precisely at the right moment. His public image became that of not only a canny investor but also of a man who "believed in New York", and he explored that image in a virtuous (or vicious) circle whereby his business ventures became indelibly associated with his personality and vice-versa.
In 1987 Donald Trump published his first (and still most famous) book, The Art of the Deal. Actually penned by journalist Tony Schwartz, the book nevertheless is written in Trump's first-person voice and it seems clear that it reflects his own thoughts, words, and views (or at least the views the wanted the public to associate with him). In that book, Trump is still largely his 1980s persona: it is mostly his autobiography (focusing much more on his business ventures than his private life) along with his thoughts, and advice, on how to succeed in real-estate development. That book still reflected what seems to be his obviously deep understanding of that kind of business, as he describes in detail how he came to his decisions, but also with some more general principles: the notions that business deals are about knowing and using one's leverage (F); that intelligence and technical knowledge, or other talents, are less important than one's instinct about their own leverage, strengths, and weaknesses, and a belief that either a person has such instincts, or not (points to F as more valued than P). Further, at the time he was already professing his belief (that later became much more obvious) than even bad publicity is better than no publicity; that making extravagant claims about his objectives and goals, far more than he knows to be feasible, is very useful in building up his image (E blocked with T). He also wrote that another key to success was to always have several alternatives and fall-back positions when trying to strike a business deal, so as never to really lose (points to I). Finally, it is interesting that he seems skeptical of expert technical knowledge when making his big decisions; he prefers, as he says, to ask as many people what they think about a location (especially cab drivers), gradually forming an image of the situation in his mind until he's certain of what the best way forward is (this indicates L as more valued than P in my view).
I argue that the above is perfectly consistent with the core of the present-day Donald Trump, and already reflects some clear Socionics information. His early public persona clearly showed a man at ease with factual impersonal information when defending his business decisions, which was at first obviously a more comfortable "zone" than the appeal to his image. That strongly suggests that his P is in a stronger position than his E. Yet,*his increased shift to focusing on E in public, as he got older, more famous and more successful, strongly suggests that E is a quadra value rather than P, which was already clear in The Art of the Deal: P is easy but taken for granted, while E is something he prefers to build up, aim at, and explore. His often-repeated belief that the single most important quality for business deals is to know one's (and others') "leverage", and that is further built up by one's "credibility" which is a consequence of success and the image of being successful, clearly points to F as quadra value and as a zone of great confidence. The above already points to Beta as Trump's quadra - having E and F as quadra values. His strong P points to a logical Beta type, while his focus on keeping several possibilities afloat at once, as well as his confidence in risk-taking and spotting real-estate potential before others shows a reasonable confidence in I. Finally, that Trump states all of that as self-evident truths points to L. All of that already points to SLE as Trump's type, a logical Beta with decent I focus.
"Present-day" Trump presents further evidence. He got into increasingly diverse business ventures that had sometimes little to do with his core business expertise, and were based exclusively on his image, starting with casinos, then into things like Trump Steaks, Trump the Game, finally culminating on the TV shows The Apprentice,*Celebrity Apprentice and spin-offs thereof, as well as Miss Universe competitions and the like. I think it's fair to say that by the time of those TV shows he was spending at least as much time (if not far more) in this kind of image-and-celebrity business venture rather than on his originally core real-estate businesses. That again shows the shift from P+F (accumulating wealth through more "concrete" business ventures) to E+F (focusing on his image as a source of power and wealth, as well as probably an end in itself).
Finally, on Trump's most recent "incarnation" i.e. as presidential candidate. His tactics in the Republican primary debates consisted essentially of destroying his rivals through ridicule, by attaching to their images traits (real or not, that's irrelevant) based on perceived weaknesses and pounding on them relentlessly until they "stuck" (i.e. low-energy Jeb Bush (LIE), little Marco, lying Ted, etc). Winning a competition by ruthlessly destroying an adversary, even using what some might call 'low-belt' tactics. shows a focus and skill on F (especially as he himself seemed impervious to such attacks); and the focus on rivals' images - rather than their substance or record - shows again the focus on E, E+T in particular i.e. a broader, longer-term perception of an image, rather than more short-term emotional atmosphere.
Also interestingly, Trump's most notorious political promises are F focused: building a huge wall on the Mexican border (that is the materialization of F), being tough on external commercial rivals, foreign and internal enemies, etc. Whether he actually plans on doing any of that if elected president is less relevant than that he thinks that those promises are effective and plausible and will help him. In addition, the 'present' Donald Trump's focus on E as a political tool has been effective with many people, but they are also seen as over-the-top, or even repugnant, by as many more. This is consistent with E being in a valued function but not really strong (such as lead or creative).
Donald Trump is clearly a SLE and I think it's even difficult to plausibly argue for another Socionics type.
Sources: information on the present Donald Trump is almost infinite; his earlier incarnation can be found in older video interviews and in his first book "The Art of the Deal".
Last edited by peteronfireee; 04-20-2017 at 08:08 PM.
Don't cry because it's over smile because it happened
I think that Gulenko's argument for Trump being SEE does real damage to his credibility as someone who knows how to apply Socionics theory to typing people.
It's interesting how he mentions Recep Tayyip Erdogan as being the 'calm, calculated' SLE he knows that Trump isn't. However, Erdogan would actually be LSI. There is a 'typing shift' with Gulenko where LSI becomes SLE and SLE becomes SEE, based on this idea that only SEEs are wildcards and SLEs must be calm and calculated just because they are Logical.
Well, Gulenko is right that these analysis are rather primitive. The superficial behavioral similarities between Trump and Elvis are pretty uncanny. But what about more "deeper" behavioral analysis? What Gulenko seems to does is that he types based on how a type behaves within the context of a society. He attempts to individuate types by giving specific behavioral traits that "only" a certain type can act in a certain way, and in a way that makes sense according to his/her "information elements". These behaviors can be observed experimentally or are based on actual observations, and seems to make sense to me.
So he explains, how exactly does the SEE typically act in a way that is uniquely specific to his/her type in a society? He also says something about the EIE, whom he sees as creators of ideologies which the SEEs work within. It's a pity that we don't know much about this because we don't have his data available in English.
What exactly does Trump do, and what does he want? His main point is the war/peace dichotomy. He explains that a war starts when one imposes its own values onto the other, and there is no compromise. But the SEE, like most feelers is a compromiser, he does not impose values, he does not start wars, he generally seeks peace. This trait can easily be observed in SEEs.
Gulenko explains that Trump is not the one to impose values, he is seeking compromises, he negotiates instead. Trump may seem like a warmonger, but if you have actually bothered to follow him, then he is actually not. He has been skeptical and critical of the US imposing its own values onto the world, being nosy and the "world police", which is why there have been so many wars lately in the world. He is critical and skeptical of the neo-conservative and neoliberal agenda of global domination, he is critical of NATO, he is critical of creating more conflicts with Russia, he instead wants to seek peace with Russia. These are based on the things that he has said in the past, but of course these things are also beyond his own control and power.
It does not mean that SEEs never use force, they do but they tend to regret it later because they have a tendency to misuse force and screw it up, which they will use their creative Fi to attempt to mend the broken relationship and make things fine again. So this is the kind of flip-flopping that you see in Trump, he constantly screws things up and then he attempts to resolve it again. Basically, he is a negotiator and not an imposer. He says, "you have your own rules, we have our own rules, let's just leave each other and live in peace", which is consistent with the SEE's "live and let live" attitude.
Another point is the wealth disparity within society, and he says something about how SEEs see this and try to correct it, but I don't quite know how he exactly arrived at this or understand his views deeply, so I'll refrain from commenting on this.
Another point that he has made is that the SEEs are the type that tend to understand what people want and give them what they want, and they tend to fulfill promises to the people, which is usually how they gain power and get into leadership positions. This can easily be observed in SEEs. It's not necessarily true that "knowing what people want" is only Fe, knowing intuitively what people want is more F than T. Fi types know what people want better than Ti types. What the SLE does instead is more to do with ruthless competitiveness and relentless perfectionism in an attempt to try to be "the very best", he's not as concerned with what people want. But the SEE feels and understands what people want, and that's exactly how they become "popular" and gain top positions. That's how Trump won, even though he had no experience with campaigning or electioneering. SEEs are also good with cajoling people, complimenting them, which is something Trump often does. It's exactly the reason why Elvis was so popular with the ladies all over the world, he exactly knew that women wanted, and he became that "perfect man" that everybody wanted.
It's pretty silly to say something like, "Well he's so brash and offensive, no way an SEE is like that, he must be SLE". Well, he has never actually been always offensive, he used to be more serious and diplomatic. Again, he is actually feeling the trend of "conservatism" in the country, with the people becoming fed up with "political correctness", and so he's scooping it up and he uses this skill masterfully to attempt to give people what they want, to become someone who is not chained to "political correctness", someone who boldly says what's on his mind, which is exactly how he won! So he has done his job.
Sorry that was long, but there's probably more to say about this. I'm not sure who has actually read this whole thing, but thanks to those who did. Also don't take this too seriously, this is just a terrible waste of time.
I feel like gulenko understands socionics better than US culture and politics
Yes, I think that Trump's style of supposed ethical pressure is not really consistent how SEEs actually do it. SEEs can be rather manipulative or they try to be. They don't usually fool me (based on knowledge if I think of the situations I have caught them on the spot) but they do fool many. Door to door vacuum cleaner salesman is the classic version of desperate or corrupt ones. Gammas see the ethics more or less on the spot leading kind of activity or providing classy performance (which they think is worth of the money...).
Trump is more of SLE giving out the statements.
From me one can not demand and expect:
- practicality of ideas;
- punctuality and diligence;
- consistency and completeness;
- constant order in the home and in the workplace;
- quality of routine work;
- soft skills to adapt to the interlocutor.
Anal Expulsive personality (no hyphens for you)
So called false dual logic that actually reveals some remote potentials:
"sure crocodiles can fly, but very, very close to the ground"
Just think about it.