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Thread: Beta Rational and Irrational Dualities: INFp-ESTp and ISTj-ENFj

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    Default Beta Rational and Irrational Dualities: INFp-ESTp and ISTj-ENFj

    I'm just curious: what are some marked differences between the Beta rational duality (LSI + EIE) and the irrational duality (SLE + IEI)? This could be in anything from how they tend to start, how they support each other, how they interact, how each one "feels", etc. Granted, two dualities of the same pair will always be different in certain aspects, but I'm just wondering about general trends here.

    So yeah, what are some similarities and differences that you've noticed? Please don't give me any Russian Babelfish bullshit. I want some real life observations.
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    An LSI-EIE pair I have noticed: Quiet laughing, lot of jokes, general fun times it seems, but always controlled, unless they burst out laughing, which happens sometimes.

    My own, SEI-ILE: A lot of screaming, british accents, dicussion of the merits of women, and lots and lots of sarcasam.


    to be honest, the relationships up there(esp. mine) seem to be very rational/irrational
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    Wait, ILE-SEI isn't Beta!
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    I'm just curious: what are some marked differences between the Beta rational duality (LSI + EIE) and the irrational duality (SLE + IEI)? This could be in anything from how they tend to start, how they support each other, how they interact, how each one "feels", etc. Granted, two dualities of the same pair will always be different in certain aspects, but I'm just wondering about general trends here.

    So yeah, what are some similarities and differences that you've noticed? Please don't give me any Russian Babelfish bullshit. I want some real life observations.
    hahaha that's a pet peeve of mine too

    Unfortunately I don't really have a duality experience to share
    Last edited by Wittmont; 01-09-2008 at 02:51 AM.
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    LSI-EIE is probably the most achievment-oriented duality, so you'll often see them at the center of attention for this reason. IEI-SLE not so much at all, they take it easier generally, more relaxed and care less. Like, at my school, I often go play poker with IEIs and SLEs, where at the same time the LSI-EIEs are at home studying togheter. Of course some LSIs, the coolest ones, come play poker too. Okay maybe this example is too unstructure but I haven't systematized my observations yet.

    Another difference is that SLE's and IEI's seem to do things more casually, like in school, not really program how they're going to do things, werehas LSI-EIE are again IMHO probably one of the most J dualities in this respect. Also the atmosphere is different with the EIE talking endlessly and the LSI either contradicting starkly or agreeing with emphasis, in IEI-SLE the roles are more balanced, IEIs can actually talk a lot even if they're introverts IME

    well i'll add something if i remember
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    LSI-EIE is probably the most achievment-oriented duality, so you'll often see them at the center of attention for this reason. IEI-SLE not so much at all, they take it easier generally, more relaxed and care less. Like, at my school, I often go play poker with IEIs and SLEs, where at the same time the LSI-EIEs are at home studying togheter. Of course some LSIs, the coolest ones, come play poker too. Okay maybe this example is too unstructure but I haven't systematized my observations yet.

    Another difference is that SLE's and IEI's seem to do things more casually, like in school, not really program how they're going to do things, werehas LSI-EIE are again IMHO probably one of the most J dualities in this respect. Also the atmosphere is different with the EIE talking endlessly and the LSI either contradicting starkly or agreeing with emphasis, in IEI-SLE the roles are more balanced, IEIs can actually talk a lot even if they're introverts IME

    well i'll add something if i remember

    Super late response....but I agree completely!! This was an awesome comparison

    Hopefully there will be more examples.

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    I'll give a rundown of what I see in a couple I've known for many years and my own marriage, which happen to be the Betas you asked about. Hopefully some of it answers what you're looking for.

    IEI + SLE - spend a lot more time together in leisure as a couple. They share more of the same interests and pursuits. They are also more carefree, fun, and laid back, or at least are this more readily and more often. Kicking back is more of an integral part of their lifestyle. They are more spontaneous as well, having guests over or dropping by as a guest with not much fuss. They do a lot backyard BBQ get togethers and impromptu pull-up-chair and have a brew type of socializing. While their work is important to them and their individual interests are there as well, those things take a back seat to "couple time". It's the reverse for EIE + LSI. IEI + SLE take time off easily and aren't fussy. They like to not worry about how much things cost. While, not spendthrifts, they are also not wallet watchers, which EIE and particularly LSI can be. Affection-wise they are more warm and demonstrative and openly solicitous to each other than the EIE and LSI are. They support each other by being very much on the same page. As far as I know from knowing them for 20 years, they agree on pretty much all the important things in life.


    EIE + LSI - don't spend an awful lot of their leisure time together as a couple. They are more individuals. Both are very focused on their own career or pursuits and while they support each other, they tend to compartmentalize their various life parts much more than IEI and SLE do. Leisure time is for the most part also spent in individual pursuits. For example: He plays golf, in a sports league, poker with the same group, and goes to major league sporting events. She is in art classes, language class, goes on shopping trips, or scenic road trips. But, for the most part they don't do these together. Often it's with other people who are more into the particular hobby seriously or it is work-related. They don't kick back as easily. Tend to be more particular and fussy (judging, high maintenance) about how and where they spend their time. By the same token they can also be finicky on how they spend their money. They like to plan things out more in advance. Affection-wise EIE and LSI are more reserved and private. They support each other by acceptance of each other's drives. This is a pretty driven couple. They may not agree on everything, but they respect each other immensely. I think the support is derived from that sense of mutual respect.


    How they started:


    SLE woo'd IEI in the most traditional, forward, romantic way - flowers, chivalrous, etc. IEI female sees him as her White Knight.


    EIE took supposedly reluctant LSIs hand and insisted he get up on the dance floor with her and the rest is history.
    Last edited by skylark; 11-14-2014 at 10:06 AM. Reason: grammar

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    Hrrm. Being IEI, I question this. Mainly because not sure if dual is dual anymore. Either I am wrong, or you are wrong, will be back with answer. If so, then whoops.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Alomoes View Post
    Hrrm. Being IEI, I question this. Mainly because not sure if dual is dual anymore. Either I am wrong, or you are wrong, will be back with answer. If so, then whoops.
    Hrrm. your style for an IEI is... weird

    I think you're a D-A thinker

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    LSI-EIE is probably the most achievment-oriented duality, so you'll often see them at the center of attention for this reason. IEI-SLE not so much at all, they take it easier generally, more relaxed and care less. Like, at my school, I often go play poker with IEIs and SLEs, where at the same time the LSI-EIEs are at home studying togheter. Of course some LSIs, the coolest ones, come play poker too. Okay maybe this example is too unstructure but I haven't systematized my observations yet.

    Another difference is that SLE's and IEI's seem to do things more casually, like in school, not really program how they're going to do things, werehas LSI-EIE are again IMHO probably one of the most J dualities in this respect. Also the atmosphere is different with the EIE talking endlessly and the LSI either contradicting starkly or agreeing with emphasis, in IEI-SLE the roles are more balanced, IEIs can actually talk a lot even if they're introverts IME

    well i'll add something if i remember
    Interesting, I'm kinda in between. I like achievement for sure but I'm also pretty unstructured in the way you describe SLE/IEI here. Also, I usually don't talk a whole lot, I prefer action to talking a lot of the time and I don't mind others talking (these people seem to be Fe-leading types for sure lol) but I also have a friend who's some kind of Fe ego (type undetermined but not ESE) and it's switched a bit there, I can talk a lot with him. And with my IEI ex I was talking all the time to him though I did like to hear him talk as well.

    Where I'm definitely not the LSI/EIE is that I don't try to plan out that much stuff. I mean, I can and will plan some stuff but it's on the highest level in terms of not going into details, just the main "points" of what I want to be doing.. the whole thing is a pretty strategic draft of a plan really and nothing more. My EIE best friend sometimes makes me feel like there's way too much detailed planning going on and way too much of planning of what we are going to do and especially how. I couldn't care less beyond the rough draft lol. But I'm tolerant of her need for this, I guess.. She's for sure one of those Fe-leads also who make me feel pretty comfortable not having to find a way to keep up the conversation. Because of that, I don't mind her talking so much though it can get a bit too silent "introverted" mode for me. Of course, because she asks me questions and whatnot, I'm not left out of the convo at all or otherwise I would mind it.


    Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post
    I'll give a rundown of what I see in a couple I've known for many years and my own marriage, which happen to be the Betas you asked about. Hopefully some of it answers what you're looking for.
    Cool stuff, if you are still around, answer me on some things? So the kicking back thingie, what sort of stuff does that mean, I hope you don't mean total passivity? I recall my IEI ex preferred passivity much much more than me though he never complained when I was dragging him to wherever...

    Overall I relate to the IEI/SLE much more here. I really don't like anything you described about EIE/LSI except the part about being a pretty driven couple. I find that part cool and I relate to that. Yes for me it's like that anyway, I easily get distracted like the Irrationals you described here but also I'm very driven and I need that part in my life too. I call that my "LSI mode" ..though some of it's not just LSI, sometimes just the Se-leading

    About how they start... I find EIE's "pick me up", initiate things with me just like that. But wirth my IEI ex it was me who did the initiating of things and it was more fun that way

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    @Myst @skylark These observations are great.
    You seek a great fortune, you three who are now in chains. You will find a fortune, though it will not be the one you seek.
    But first you must travel a long and difficult road, a road fraught with peril.
    You shall see things, wonderful to tell. You shall see a... cow... on the roof of a cotton house. And, oh, so many startlements.
    I cannot tell you how long this road shall be, but fear not the ob-stacles in your path, for fate has vouchsafed your reward.
    Though the road may wind, yea, your hearts grow weary, still shall ye follow them, even unto your salvation
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    Quote Originally Posted by skylark View Post
    I'll give a rundown of what I see in a couple I've known for many years and my own marriage, which happen to be the Betas you asked about. Hopefully some of it answers what you're looking for.

    IEI + SLE - spend a lot more time together in leisure as a couple. They share more of the same interests and pursuits. They are also more carefree, fun, and laid back, or at least are this more readily and more often. Kicking back is more of an integral part of their lifestyle. They are more spontaneous as well, having guests over or dropping by as a guest with not much fuss. They do a lot backyard BBQ get togethers and impromptu pull-up-chair and have a brew type of socializing. While their work is important to them and their individual interests are there as well, those things take a back seat to "couple time". It's the reverse for EIE + LSI. IEI + SLE take time off easily and aren't fussy. They like to not worry about how much things cost. While, not spendthrifts, they are also not wallet watchers, which EIE and particularly LSI can be. Affection-wise they are more warm and demonstrative and openly solicitous to each other than the EIE and LSI are. They support each other by being very much on the same page. As far as I know from knowing them for 20 years, they agree on pretty much all the important things in life.


    EIE + LSI - don't spend an awful lot of their leisure time together as a couple. They are more individuals. Both are very focused on their own career or pursuits and while they support each other, they tend to compartmentalize their various life parts much more than IEI and SLE do. Leisure time is for the most part also spent in individual pursuits. For example: He plays golf, in a sports league, poker with the same group, and goes to major league sporting events. She is in art classes, language class, goes on shopping trips, or scenic road trips. But, for the most part they don't do these together. Often it's with other people who are more into the particular hobby seriously or it is work-related. They don't kick back as easily. Tend to be more particular and fussy (judging, high maintenance) about how and where they spend their time. By the same token they can also be finicky on how they spend their money. They like to plan things out more in advance. Affection-wise EIE and LSI are more reserved and private. They support each other by acceptance of each other's drives. This is a pretty driven couple. They may not agree on everything, but they respect each other immensely. I think the support is derived from that sense of mutual respect.


    How they started:


    SLE woo'd IEI in the most traditional, forward, romantic way - flowers, chivalrous, etc. IEI female sees him as her White Knight.


    EIE took supposedly reluctant LSIs hand and insisted he get up on the dance floor with her and the rest is history.
    Reviewing this, the EIE-LSI pairing seems sx-last actually.

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    I find that most of the 'observed' behaviour of duals are centric around the partner with externalized references - in this instance, the ESTp and ENFj; even the INFp and ISTj will oftentimes exhibit similar-looking behaviour to their duals when interacting in public. The private dynamic can be completely different where the INFp points out the error of ESTp's ways and the ISTj instructs the ENFj about getting realistic. The ESTp explorer will normally drag along the INFp on the latest expedition while the INFp will guardedly try to ensure that the ESTp doesn't get into trouble again. The ENFj leader will conscript or volunteer the ISTj for all sorts of projects while the ISTj will ensure that the hair-brained schemes are at least planned properly.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I find that most of the 'observed' behaviour of duals are centric around the partner with externalized references - in this instance, the ESTp and ENFj; even the INFp and ISTj will oftentimes exhibit similar-looking behaviour to their duals when interacting in public. The private dynamic can be completely different where the INFp points out the error of ESTp's ways and the ISTj instructs the ENFj about getting realistic. The ESTp explorer will normally drag along the INFp on the latest expedition while the INFp will guardedly try to ensure that the ESTp doesn't get into trouble again. The ENFj leader will conscript or volunteer the ISTj for all sorts of projects while the ISTj will ensure that the hair-brained schemes are at least planned properly.
    Actually that description fits well except I don't relate to the getting conscripted bit, I make the decisions out of my own will including whether I want to help my duals with stuff, and whether I see it as sensible even.

    EDIT: I think the schemes planning issue is a problem for EIE-Fe more, they seem to have less foresight and are more emotional in that way than Ni subtype.

    I also dragged my IEI-Fe ex to some stuff but the dynamic wasn't like you describe ESTp/INFp, true.

    What is meant by "externalized references" here?
    Last edited by Myst; 09-11-2017 at 03:57 PM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    .........I don't relate to the getting conscripted bit, I make the decisions out of my own will........ What is meant by "externalized references" here?
    I used the word conscript because a lot of ISTj behaviour seems so military-like. ISTj are indeed independent thinkers but they do seem to like to please and to be perceived as competent and productive. I use the phrase "externalized references" because I don't like the use of the term extroverted in Socionics.I've given the following reference in other threads:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/int_ext.html

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I used the word conscript because a lot of ISTj behaviour seems so military-like. ISTj are indeed independent thinkers but they do seem to like to please and to be perceived as competent and productive. I use the phrase "externalized references" because I don't like the use of the term extroverted in Socionics.I've given the following reference in other threads:

    http://www.socionics.com/articles/int_ext.html

    a.k.a. I/O
    Lol, ok.

    Did you use ideas from other (non-socionics) sources for this article? If so, from where?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Myst View Post
    Lol, ok.

    Did you use ideas from other (non-socionics) sources for this article? If so, from where?
    I used no sources other than my background in control systems engineering. Articles were written because I thought that the Socionics perception of function and the subsequent modelling were rather naïve even though Socionics observations are for the most part accurate. I like to think of Socionics as being half-way there......

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I used no sources other than my background in control systems engineering. Articles were written because I thought that the Socionics perception of function and the subsequent modelling were rather naïve even though Socionics observations are for the most part accurate. I like to think of Socionics as being half-way there......

    a.k.a. I/O
    I happen to agree with @Rebelondeck's approach to the functions. Many biological processes can be explained by control theory. I believe these include the methods of information exchange in socionics.

    A very good book which describes how parts of the brain operate is "On Intelligence", by Jeff Hawkins. The structures of neurons in the brain which receive signals from the limbs are the same as those which drive muscle movements. One set of neural structures is repurposed again and again, which is why you can "route around" brain damage. One set of circuits is used for input, one for output. There are obvious inner and outer control loops to our behavior. I think control theory can be used to describe much of our behavior.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I happen to agree with @Rebelondeck's approach to the functions. Many biological processes can be explained by control theory. I believe these include the methods of information exchange in socionics.

    A very good book which describes how parts of the brain operate is "On Intelligence", by Jeff Hawkins. The structures of neurons in the brain which receive signals from the limbs are the same as those which drive muscle movements. One set of neural structures is repurposed again and again, which is why you can "route around" brain damage. One set of circuits is used for input, one for output. There are obvious inner and outer control loops to our behavior. I think control theory can be used to describe much of our behavior.
    Your referenced analogy is good but I'm referring more to information (software) control systems - the difference between an adaptive app and the computer itself, which can be largely independent of one another. I certainly haven't gone into any depth about my theory because I don't want another job; it's one thing to have an intuitive understanding of something but it's quite another to fully explain the actual mechanics of it. I would like for someone competent to run with the concept - Socionics already has the information necessary to move into hard science models.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    I used no sources other than my background in control systems engineering. Articles were written because I thought that the Socionics perception of function and the subsequent modelling were rather naïve even though Socionics observations are for the most part accurate. I like to think of Socionics as being half-way there......
    I agree that those are naive. However, Socionics is not anywhere whatsoever. Half-way is way way over-optimistic... It's a very very general draft of some ideas, no more. Your article gets slightly more into it so I do like that about it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Rebelondeck View Post
    Your referenced analogy is good but I'm referring more to information (software) control systems - the difference between an adaptive app and the computer itself, which can be largely independent of one another. I certainly haven't gone into any depth about my theory because I don't want another job; it's one thing to have an intuitive understanding of something but it's quite another to fully explain the actual mechanics of it. I would like for someone competent to run with the concept - Socionics already has the information necessary to move into hard science models.
    Again, it would be nice if Socionics really had the necessary information I did take one element from it though that can be a good addition to hard science models. Just that, no more, still, that's cool.


    Quote Originally Posted by Adam Strange View Post
    I happen to agree with @Rebelondeck's approach to the functions. Many biological processes can be explained by control theory. I believe these include the methods of information exchange in socionics.

    A very good book which describes how parts of the brain operate is "On Intelligence", by Jeff Hawkins. The structures of neurons in the brain which receive signals from the limbs are the same as those which drive muscle movements. One set of neural structures is repurposed again and again, which is why you can "route around" brain damage. One set of circuits is used for input, one for output. There are obvious inner and outer control loops to our behavior. I think control theory can be used to describe much of our behavior.
    The mind has some more complex stuff in terms of amount of information processed than just some biological processes. Of course all of it is implemented in hardware but just like with a computer, the software that runs on it is more complex. Otherwise of course the computer hardware is on an entirely different level compared to the brain's hardware implementation.

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    @Myst Socionics and MBTI do have observational data that can be used to validate hard-science models, like when astronomical observations verified Einstein's prediction that the sun would distort space-time.

    a.k.a. I/O

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    I think that in the SLE-IEI duality, the leadership role clearly is SLE, where in LSI-EIE, leadership is more split between the two partners.

    I was also gonna say LSI-EIE have more respect for order and organization, but I'm not sure if that's true. Beta rational would seem more respectful of established order and tradition, where beta irrationals, much less so.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I think that in the SLE-IEI duality, the leadership role clearly is SLE, where in LSI-EIE, leadership is more split between the two partners.
    I can't really comment on SLE-IEI duality. However...

    Quote Originally Posted by Avebury View Post
    I was also gonna say LSI-EIE have more respect for order and organization, but I'm not sure if that's true. Beta rational would seem more respectful of established order and tradition, where beta irrationals, much less so.
    LSI - EIE tend to divest responsibility naturally, the partners end up doing what they're most comfortable with - that way, the trains usually run on time. So one party leads in some areas, the other leads in other areas. I can't see LSI and EIE being particularly involved with each other's day to day lives, because they have such different interests. The connection is first and foremost physical, and secondly comes from common values and priorities in a relationship. This does however make it crucial for these two types to ensure they spend enough of their lesiure time with each other doing things. Sex obviously needs to be a part of that, but any activities that engage each others' Mobilizing function will be helpful for growth. Essentially whoever has more energy at the time will dominate the other; shifts here should keep their relationship healthy.

    Both LSI and EIE prefer to create order and a hierarchy in their personal lives. However no Rational type is necessarily respectful of the status quo socially, this will depend on whether it reflects their Quadra values (and today the status quo is Delta, in opposition to Beta).
    Last edited by Cuivienen; 09-13-2017 at 05:41 AM.

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    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    INFP, ESTP
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    Queen of the Damned Aylen's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post

    INFP, ESTP





    "When I ought to be thinking of heaven he will nail me to earth"

     







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    Quote Originally Posted by Aylen View Post
    but... they love each other

    ok, then LSI (bald), EIE (not bald) [interesting begins at 3:30]



    LSI (in glasses), EIE (without glasses still)
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    both sides, now wacey's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sol View Post
    but... they love each other

    ok, then LSI (bald), EIE (not bald) [interesting begins at 3:30]



    LSI (in glasses), EIE (without glasses still)
    Absolutly. One of the best video examples of a real, not scripted, not acting, Se *correction* -"Im trying to help you, even from yourself." Even if that means physically stopping you from leaving the room. Nice find, Sol.

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    Beta rational duality is initially built off the Fe-Ti connection. This is conversation, dialogue based - EIE/LSI can "hold court" for long periods of time, taking turns talking. In the beginning the LSI laughs at everything, but the pedant in him comes out happily after a while. Both types have a tendency for being pedantic, which sounds awful to irrational types but is generally an impressive attribute in the grown-up gamma/delta world. When you enter the "court" of the EIE/LSI, you must submit to their program, whatever that may be, i.e. you have to do what they are doing, and you have to outwardly enjoy it. They are often the pillars of their social group.

    Beta irrational duality is initially built off the Se-Ni connection, which is movement based. The SLE wants to keep moving, and to his surprise and delight, the IEI moves with him effortlessly and painlessly. SLE is impressed with the IEI's flexibility and ability to keep up, and the IEI is very grateful that the environment is constantly changing without effort on his part. Together they have several different social groups in which they make brief appearances.

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    More EIE-LSI examples! Moarrrrr!
    ..Please?...

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    Quote Originally Posted by bolong View Post
    Beta rational duality is initially built off the Fe-Ti connection. This is conversation, dialogue based - EIE/LSI can "hold court" for long periods of time, taking turns talking. In the beginning the LSI laughs at everything, but the pedant in him comes out happily after a while. Both types have a tendency for being pedantic, which sounds awful to irrational types but is generally an impressive attribute in the grown-up gamma/delta world. When you enter the "court" of the EIE/LSI, you must submit to their program, whatever that may be, i.e. you have to do what they are doing, and you have to outwardly enjoy it. They are often the pillars of their social group.

    Beta irrational duality is initially built off the Se-Ni connection, which is movement based. The SLE wants to keep moving, and to his surprise and delight, the IEI moves with him effortlessly and painlessly. SLE is impressed with the IEI's flexibility and ability to keep up, and the IEI is very grateful that the environment is constantly changing without effort on his part. Together they have several different social groups in which they make brief appearances.
    On a quick side note --

    Is this the case for all rational and irrational duality pairs? In rational duality pairs - the Ej fills the Ij with a sense of purpose which the Ij carries out in their respective field of interest, and vice versa. Somewhat like they're delegating logical and ethical tasks. The Ij provides the Ej with a solid internal foundation while the Ej reciprocates with solid external protection. Like they enter this arrangement (personal or business) with a specific goal in mind. They're interconnected. But in irrational duality pairs - the Ep and Ip are separate entities. They cross paths from time to time which increases in frequency the more time they spend together. Like weaving in and out, up and down, left and right, and then "colliding" when their respective interests align - which they usually do - but there is no specific beginning or end to the arrangement. And if their interests no longer align, they more naturally go their separate ways, whereas in rational duality pairs, they're more inclined to make compromises, potentially over-extending themselves in the process?

    Either way, that was a solid distinction. I'm wondering if what I took away from it was accurate.
    awldjkwepierpgokqweølfqøerlkfdaergnhtm¨å¨æ''-we-fqpoeufasdøflthøljwtlhkjrøtlhhhhhhhhhhsapfoeporipr



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    Quote Originally Posted by SpreeFirit View Post
    More EIE-LSI examples! Moarrrrr!
    comedy show (with moustaches - LSI)


    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    actor on left - ENFJ [indeed]. on right (because of moustaches) - ISTJ
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    LSI-man, EIE-woman
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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    INFP [on left], ESTP
    Types examples: video bloggers, actors

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