niffweed

[Joy]

I started writing this for the consensus list, but it got long and I still had more to say, so I decided it would be more appropriate to put it here.

Personally, I sometimes wonder if niffweed's type is one of the forum typings that has been taken for granted, even to the extent of having become part of what some people's idea of ILI's is. I'm not saying that he is or isn't any particular type, but I want to remark on a few things.



Temperament: IP's are observers above all else. Their experiences are often largely defined by their observations. That's why they're "relaxed, go with the flow". Niffweed doesn't strike me as being being at all "go with the flow". Rational types have ideas about the way reality should be, and they try to shape reality to it, or at least complain about where it differs. While niffweed isn't the most proactive person, he certainly doesn't seem to be primarily an "observer". On the contrary, he seems to like to ruffle feathers. This is a rather un-IP trait, imo.

Ni: There are things about him that are not consistent with a typical Ni dominant. Ni dominants generally have a feeling about them of being not quite in the moment entirely. They're often detachedly reflective and see hidden connections between little things that most people, including Ni creatives, wouldn't have taken the time to consider. If you don't know them well, they may blend into the background. If you do, they're likely to have an unusual, slightly surreal take on most things. They're attracted to abstractions and enjoy discussing oddities. Being observers allows them to notice and comment on things that break the flow of events, and they may point out things they see as unusual or unexpected. Their analogies are more focused on imagery, symbolism, and abstract concepts than most people's. I've considered that some ILI's have less apparent, less... stylistic?... Ni, but it's difficult for me to overlook this aspect of typing him entirely (seeing as how it is considered by most to be his dominant function). On the other hand, I want to make it clear that the presence or absence of strong Ni is not by any means one of the main reasons I'm doubting his being ILI. It's actually one of the less significant reasons.

Se: Taking the "less apparent Ni" possibility into consideration, his being an intuitive type still doesn't entirely make sense to me. I don't see weak Se. All of the ILI's I've known have appeared rather dispassionate most of the time. From a distance, they all come across as being somewhat passive and unobtrusive. The dual seeking function and PoLR are the weakest functions, the functions that we're totally helpless in regards to. Niffweed does not strike me as being helpless where Se is concerned. He seems self-possessed, has a strong will, and readily stands up to pretty much anyone. He's also more self-possessed than any Ni dominant I've ever seen. (This may also be partially related to Fi.)

Fi: I'm not sure niffweed has weak Fi, either. Te types usually don't have clearly defined Fi. They doubt whether their idea of what's right and what's wrong, and they don't usually have many strong likes or dislikes for particular people, either (this obviously has exceptions though). While there isn't much evidence at hand showing that he has particularly strong Fi, looking back at some of his interactions, he does seem to have some clear principles that's he's quite confident in and comfortable being vocal about. The things he's assertive about are more related to Fi (or maybe possibly Ti) than to Te.

Te: ILI's are very unassuming in the way they deliver information about what they see as being potential problems. I think that it's quite possible that niffweed is using Se to criticize, and people here are thinking that it's Te criticism (and have for so long that it's become a part of how they see Te in ILI's). ILI's have a very different way of going about criticism. Their criticisms are impersonal. They're about the realities of situation, not about people or principles. Their criticism will more likely be something along the lines of "this could have that negative consequence" or "this won't work" or "that is incorrect" or "this bad thing is going to happen" or "if this would have been done that way, this wouldn't have happened", not "you are an idiot" or "die". ILI's are unlikely to attack people over ideology.

Fe: If ILI's offend someone, it is most likely because they failed to understand that their words or actions (or lack of words to actions) may do so. They don't see catering to people's emotions and or the mood in a room or the atmosphere of a group as something important that should be done, but they don't purposely upset people either, generally speaking.

Ne: I think some people like to think that niffweed's randomness is an ILI trait, perhaps Ni + irrationality. The problem with that though is that Ni is about connections and flow. Niffweed's randomness is too abrupt and... well, random to be Ni. It seems more like bastardized Ne combined with Se. When Ne PoLR types try to use what they think Ne is (even if they don't think in those terms), it can come across as just being totally random.

[Expat]

I'll comment only on this, for now --

Their criticism will more likely be something along the lines of "this could have that negative consequence" or "this won't work" or "that is incorrect" or "this bad thing is going to happen" or "if this would have been done that way, this wouldn't have happened", not "you are an idiot" or "die". ILI's are unlikely to attack people over ideology.

I don't see niffweed attacking people over "ideology", unless that's how you call socionics. His "die" comments all mean "it's not funny", and his "you are an idiot" all mean "that is incorrect". Niffweed is perfectly able, and willing, to discuss socionics or anything else in perfectly reasonable terms, even with those who are clueless - provided they are willing to accept his brashness. But he's quick to decide that you're not worth the bother, too.

I think he may be an ILI who's a bit too much into his super-id.

[Joy]

Niffweed is perfectly able, and willing, to discuss socionics or anything else in perfectly reasonable terms

Are there any types who wouldn't be?

[Expat]

Are there any types who wouldn't be?

Types, no, I agree -- people, yes. But I just wanted to point out (as I think you yourself know) that niffweed is not just about "die" or "you are an idiot" etc.

[Joy]

My point about his aggressiveness was that of all of the types, the INxx's are least likely to feel comfortable being aggressive, or to frequently be aggressive. That's not to say that it can't happen... just that it's more likely that someone who's comfortable being aggressive should be carefully evaluated as to other type possibilities before settling on INxx.

[Joy]

Types, no, I agree -- people, yes. But I just wanted to point out (as I think you yourself know) that niffweed is not just about "die" or "you are an idiot" etc.

Right, but it's still something that is an unlikely behavior for an INxx type.

[FDG]

Rotfl At This Thread Only Showing How Delirious Joy Has Become

[aestrivex]

overall, there are some interesting points here, and many of these were related to reasons why i was unsure of my type for a long time.

i'm interested to see what people have to say to some of these points.


however, i'd like to say this:

Fe: If ILI's offend someone, it is most likely because they failed to understand that their words or actions (or lack of words to actions) may do so. They don't see catering to people's emotions and or the mood in a room or the atmosphere of a group as something important that should be done, but they don't purposely upset people either, generally speaking.

i think this is often fairly typical of what i'll do.

there was an example that i used to give of somebody who at first was an ESE, but quickly became an ESI (which is what i think she is now, without much doubt in my mind).

ultimately, a recurring theme that happens is that whenever i see her, i say hi or something and then proceed to ignore her and do whatever i'm doing. this apparently offends her, and i never have any idea why. there are other similarly innocuous examples that i could think of. i was talking the other day about a scenario in which my grandmother (ESE) got pissed off at me because she found my not holding a door open rude and disrespectful for some arcane reason. there was a thanksgiving gathering with some idiots from my family in which i would rather have been anywhere else, and in which i didn't really participate in most of the discussion, but basically tried to be polite. after the dinner i was basically admonished for offending my ESE grandmother, her ESE (?) friend, and in general for "being antisocial."

basically i don't think that this is at all similar to an Fi dominant's lack of concern for Fe, especially given that at least a few of the people that i've offended seem to be ESIs (by my typings, anyway, but not ones that i'm terribly doubtful about.)

[Expat]

I think that what you described is just a bit "over the top" ILI.

ESIs expect some social Fe from others and the near-total absence of it may annoy them (or they may think you are being rude on purpose). Likewise, with my own activity partners, SEEs, those who are too ignoring of Ti also put me off (althout personally I've seen that happening more with IEEs than SEEs).

I've also received versions of the "you are being anti-social" from ESIs, but they do it as warning rather than criticism, because they knew me.

[FDG]

Niffweed if you behave like shit on purpose you can totally expect people to be kind of pissed.

[Mediator Kam]

Joy brought up some really great points, I hope this could be discussed further.

and on this point:

ultimately, a recurring theme that happens is that whenever i see her, i say hi or something and then proceed to ignore her and do whatever i'm doing. this apparently offends her, and i never have any idea why. there are other similarly innocuous examples that i could think of. i was talking the other day about a scenario in which my grandmother (ESE) got pissed off at me because she found my not holding a door open rude and disrespectful for some arcane reason. there was a thanksgiving gathering with some idiots from my family in which i would rather have been anywhere else, and in which i didn't really participate in most of the discussion, but basically tried to be polite. after the dinner i was basically admonished for offending my ESE grandmother, her ESE (?) friend, and in general for "being antisocial."

My ILI friend has told me something almost exactly like this on numerous occasions. He becomes so "antisocial" when his parents' friends come to his house, his parents just tell him to stay away from the living room/dining room.

[aestrivex]

another serious problem with joy's apparent criticisms (which seem to point towards ESI as my type) is that there are a lot of simple characteristics of mine which don't necessarily fit.

most of the Se types i've known, even creative Se types, have shown some regard for their physical well-being and for making good appearances. i'm the person that hasn't ever shaved in my life, about three years ago or so i was taking about one shower every two weeks, and basically doesn't make any effort to look good. individually these aren't important, but basically i think that this sort of thing is part of what an Se focus entails. i've identified this basically, using socionics, as one of the major areas where Se dual-seeking might have some influence.

also, i don't think you could make a case that personal relationships are important in my life at all. honestly, i don't know how introverted Fi types might differ from this; maybe ESI is possible in this regard, but i am mostly a loner with very few close friends and mostly casual relationships with people that i only see when i have to see them.

does that sound ESI? i don't think so, but i don't know.



the other major problem is the whole NT thing. not to be all that MBTI about it, but i'm an intellectual. period. i'm not saying that ESIs can't be intellectual, but to some extent "deep thinking" is a role more naturally suited to intuitive types. again, i'm not sure i really have a good understanding about how an ESI might think, but i am markedly different from some of the people i've typed as ESI in this kind of a general world focus. joy's point about the randomness being more related to Ne than Ni is something i've always wondered about; i've never really seen that as related to Ni at all. it seems more to me like a bunch of loosely connected concepts and basically unrelated random ideas flow through me when i do that, and that's an easy state of mind for me to be in. but it's also one i get tired of easily (i'm not trying to taint this description in any way) and it's just impossible to use for any extended period because communication is halted completely.

anyway, what does this all point to? i tend to think that i think these sorts of things over a lot and am too intellectually minded to be a sensory type. i can almost sort of see a case for vulnerable Ne, in that i might look upon certain mistakes i've made and try to erase them from memory, but it doesn't really work. it also strikes me that i'm probably not as emotionally confident as i might appear to be.


overall there are some very good points made, but i don't think the whole ESI thing makes sense.

[aestrivex]

Niffweed if you behave like shit on purpose you can totally expect people to be kind of pissed.

that's not it at all.

[aestrivex]

On niffweed's "randomness" -- I dunno, it makes sense to me? Niffweed may correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to speak for him anyway, but I think to focus on the randomness of it is missing the point.

sort of, but not really. the random flow of concepts it can be a recurring state of mind.

[Expat]

niffweed, if you are a sort of "deep-thinking ESI" (and again I don't think that there is anything remarkable about it), and one who more often than not goes against prevailing Fe, the closest person I can think of to that would be Christopher Hitchens. You might want to watch some videos.

[aestrivex]

Te: ILI's are very unassuming in the way they deliver information about what they see as being potential problems. I think that it's quite possible that niffweed is using Se to criticize, and people here are thinking that it's Te criticism (and have for so long that it's become a part of how they see Te in ILI's). ILI's have a very different way of going about criticism. Their criticisms are impersonal. They're about the realities of situation, not about people or principles. Their criticism will more likely be something along the lines of "this could have that negative consequence" or "this won't work" or "that is incorrect" or "this bad thing is going to happen" or "if this would have been done that way, this wouldn't have happened", not "you are an idiot" or "die". ILI's are unlikely to attack people over ideology.

this is the only quibble i have with you functionally. there are parts of this that i just don't agree with. i don't think that ILI criticism is necessarily limited to "this won't work," which is in some ways a concept associated with any kind of criticism at all.

basically an ILI might argue with some person about an ideology that doesn't seem sensible to them.

i also think that even that kind of criticism is impersonal; you're not attacking the person, but rather the idea. a person with stupid ideas is not necessarily completely stupid. if people take that personally, it's their problem.



in what ways do you see me criticizing with Se?

[aestrivex]

niffweed, if you are a sort of "deep-thinking ESI" (and again I don't think that there is anything remarkable about it), and one who more often than not goes against prevailing Fe, the closest person I can think of to that would be Christopher Hitchens. You might want to watch some videos.

i've seen some of his videos.

i guess maybe its possible, but it wouldn't occur to me that i were his identical. hitchens is obviously an intelligent guy with a great deal more information about certain subjects than i have. i agreed with some of what he said, but i didn't find anything about hitchens as a person to be all that remarkable.

[Mediator Kam]

in what ways do you see me criticizing with Se?

If you are a "deep-thinking ESI", you criticize by applying pressure to your opponents, like "you are an idiot" or "die".

[Expat]

i didn't find anything about hitchens as a person to be all that remarkable.

Well, as you know, you wouldn't have to.

[aestrivex]

"you are an idiot" or "die".

if that's it, then the point is complete BS. but i tend to believe she probably had something slightly more comprehensive in mind.

[Mediator Kam]

Sorry, I edited it. There's a bit more to it.

[Exodus]

I think that what you described is just a bit "over the top" ILI.

ESIs expect some social Fe from others and the near-total absence of it may annoy them (or they may think you are being rude on purpose). Likewise, with my own activity partners, SEEs, those who are too ignoring of Ti also put me off (althout personally I've seen that happening more with IEEs than SEEs).

This is a really good point. The 7th function is an important part of duality, especially as compared to activation. I've seen something similar with ExFjs and ExTps - the active antagonism to Fi that ExTps have can really put ExFjs off.

[aestrivex]

another idea that i was thinking about but never got around to addressing in the last several posts was that i feel like i'm far more energetic and industrious of a person right now than i was, say, six months ago. i don't totally know what to make of that or of any of the ideas that socionic type/subtype/whatever varies over time.

previously i was tired and exhausted a lot, perhaps as a result of excessive stress (actually, i haven't thought about this at all, but given everything that was going on then and now, the idea that i was too stressed out a year ago makes a fair amount of sense).

i don't know, i'm still tired and fatigued a lot, but not as much.

this seems like it might be just completely irrelevant to socionics.

[Mediator Kam]

btw, what is that in your avatar? looks like a "lustrous" metal.

[aestrivex]

btw, what is that in your avatar? looks like a "lustrous" metal.

its a piece of coal.

[aestrivex]

Can you remember back to before you had your lethargic period?

well, i was definitely very lethargic throughout almost all of middle school, but that might also have been due to stress, or it might not have been. regardless, i had absolutely no friends during that period of my life, and i do not look back upon it with much halcyon-ness.

i seem to remember myself as having more friends and being somewhat more sociable again prior to 6th grade, but then again this was when i was 10, so god only knows if that has anything to do with socionics at all.

[Mediator Kam]

its a piece of coal.

Never seen one so shiny before. All the coal I have seen is kinda non-shiny-like.

I don't think your lethargic period was related to socionics.

[Exodus]

Everything is related to socionics.

[Joy]

The lethargy could very well be related to a medical condition. I have to go now but will answer other points later.

[Mediator Kam]

Everything is related to socionics.

Niff always tells me whatever I say is not socionically related, so there!

[Joy]

The lethargy could very well be related to a medical condition. I have to go now but will answer other points later.

Oh yeah, and the stuff about hygiene, social skills, and the whole "NT" thing could be unrelated to socionics as well. Perhaps it would be better for me to PM you about my thoughts on that stuff though. But like I said, later.

[implied]

My point about his aggressiveness was that of all of the types, the INxx's are least likely to feel comfortable being aggressive, or to frequently be aggressive. That's not to say that it can't happen... just that it's more likely that someone who's comfortable being aggressive should be carefully evaluated as to other type possibilities before settling on INxx.

i kind of doubt this. it seems like there are numerous INFps and INTps who pull this sort of thing all the time.

i think the argument for ESI was nicely constructed, but basically everything niffweed wrote to counter it seems pretty accurate IMO.

[Jonathan]

Personally, I sometimes wonder if niffweed's type is one of the forum typings that has been taken for granted, even to the extent of having become part of what some people's idea of ILI's is. I'm not saying that he is or isn't any particular type, but I want to remark on a few things.

Joy, I think you actually have a pretty good description of ILI here...better than most. Only the application to Niffweed seems in question. Of the two people who Rick saw as very clearly ILI in NYC, Niffweed actually seems to fit some of the typical descriptions than I do...e.g., he's critical of bizarre theories; I love any new theory; he seems to hate any show of Fe whatsoever; I rather like it; he seemed quiet most of the time; I was very talkative etc. In any case, there are lots of variations within any given "type."

Temperament: IP's are observers above all else. Their experiences are often largely defined by their observations. That's why they're "relaxed, go with the flow".

In NYC, he seemed mostly to observe and make comments from time to time. He seemed pretty "relaxed, go with the flow" to me.

Ni dominants generally have a feeling about them of being not quite in the moment entirely. They're often detachedly reflective and see hidden connections between little things that most people, including Ni creatives, wouldn't have taken the time to consider.

He seemed detachedly reflective in person.

I don't see weak Se. All of the ILI's I've known have appeared rather dispassionate most of the time. From a distance, they all come across as being somewhat passive and unobtrusive. The dual seeking function and PoLR are the weakest functions, the functions that we're totally helpless in regards to. Niffweed does not strike me as being helpless where Se is concerned. He seems self-possessed, has a strong will, and readily stands up to pretty much anyone. He's also more self-possessed than any Ni dominant I've ever seen.

In person, he didn't seem Se. He was quiet much of the time and talked in a reflective manner characteristic of Ni-dominants. However, he is from NYC where it's the culture to be aggressive, and people there may seem more Se-like than folks from the middle of the country, all other things being equal.

Fi: I'm not sure niffweed has weak Fi, either. Te types usually don't have clearly defined Fi. They doubt whether their idea of what's right and what's wrong, and they don't usually have many strong likes or dislikes for particular people, either (this obviously has exceptions though). While there isn't much evidence at hand showing that he has particularly strong Fi, looking back at some of his interactions, he does seem to have some clear principles that's he's quite confident in and comfortable being vocal about. The things he's assertive about are more related to Fi (or maybe possibly Ti) than to Te.

Not sure what to make of this one since it's not a conclusive argument in any direction. ILIs might give off certain degrees of Fi or Ti.

Te: ILI's are very unassuming in the way they deliver information about what they see as being potential problems. I think that it's quite possible that niffweed is using Se to criticize, and people here are thinking that it's Te criticism (and have for so long that it's become a part of how they see Te in ILI's). ILI's have a very different way of going about criticism. Their criticisms are impersonal. They're about the realities of situation, not about people or principles. Their criticism will more likely be something along the lines of "this could have that negative consequence" or "this won't work" or "that is incorrect" or "this bad thing is going to happen" or "if this would have been done that way, this wouldn't have happened", not "you are an idiot" or "die". ILI's are unlikely to attack people over ideology.

Probably not type-related, although it could have to do with subtypes of some sort. I would speculate that when he's on the forum, he feels free to let out all the aggressiveness that he wouldn't in person. People are often less reserved online than in person, because they don't have to worry about the consequences as much.

Fe: If ILI's offend someone, it is most likely because they failed to understand that their words or actions (or lack of words to actions) may do so. They don't see catering to people's emotions and or the mood in a room or the atmosphere of a group as something important that should be done, but they don't purposely upset people either, generally speaking.

Same deal. I can't picture Niffweed saying in person some of the things he says online.

Ne: I think some people like to think that niffweed's randomness is an ILI trait, perhaps Ni + irrationality. The problem with that though is that Ni is about connections and flow. Niffweed's randomness is too abrupt and... well, random to be Ni. It seems more like bastardized Ne combined with Se. When Ne PoLR types try to use what they think Ne is (even if they don't think in those terms), it can come across as just being totally random.

This is the one analytic point I disagree with. Despite what people say, you don't see Ne types engaging in this kind of make-believe much. Perhaps there's a mixture of Ni and Ne there....but basically outlandish and bizarre mental images do not mean Ne.

[Jonathan]

Everything is related to socionics.

This is true in a way, but that doesn't mean everything is related to type. There's a difference. Some behaviors may relate to how someone uses or expresses certain functions and may not be indicative of type per se.

[Exodus]

This is true in a way, but that doesn't mean everything is related to type. There's a difference. Some behaviors may relate to how someone uses or expresses certain functions and may not be indicative of type per se.

Yes, I didn't mean to imply everything is type-related. I can see why people would confuse the two concepts, but they are quite different.

Having also met niff in person, I think INTp makes perfect sense. Definitely not a sensor, that much is sure.

[Phaedrus]

My point about his aggressiveness was that of all of the types, the INxx's are least likely to feel comfortable being aggressive, or to frequently be aggressive.

Not true of INTps.

"When interacting with others they may be very active, pushy and sometimes even aggressive. They often do not obey the norms of politeness and may sometime be rough and vulgar, however this behaviour usually does not last a long time." (Gulenko/Ganin)

INTps are in fact more likely to be, and also to feel more comfortable with being, aggressive in their behaviour towards others than INTjs or ISTjs. ISTps are more similar to INTps in that respect. And surely no one seriously believes that niffweed is anything but one of the IT types, right?

[Phaedrus]

My point about his aggressiveness was that of all of the types, the INxx's are least likely to feel comfortable being aggressive, or to frequently be aggressive.

Not true of INTps.

"When interacting with others they may be very active, pushy and sometimes even aggressive. They often do not obey the norms of politeness and may sometime be rough and vulgar, however this behaviour usually does not last a long time." (Gulenko/Ganin)

INTps are in fact more likely to be, and also to feel more comfortable with being, aggressive in their behaviour towards others than INTjs or ISTjs. ISTps are more similar to INTps in that respect. And surely no one seriously believes that niffweed is anything but one of the IT types, right?

[Joy]

On niffweed's "randomness" -- I dunno, it makes sense to me? Niffweed may correct me if I'm wrong, I'm not trying to speak for him anyway, but I think to focus on the randomness of it is missing the point.

I agree. That doesn't change what I said about Ne though.

On Te-types not having "clearly defined Fi" -- what kind of Fi-type would tolerate a partner without clear ideas of what is right and wrong, wouldn't they consider them untrustworthy?

I think most people have certain things that they consider right or wrong (what those things are depend on the person), but some people see a lot more gray area than others.

Niffweed if you behave like shit on purpose you can totally expect people to be kind of pissed.

How the hell is what he described behaving "like shit on purpose"? He didn't do anything wrong.

My ILI friend has told me something almost exactly like this on numerous occasions. He becomes so "antisocial" when his parents' friends come to his house, his parents just tell him to stay away from the living room/dining room.

This could happen with many types.

also, i don't think you could make a case that personal relationships are important in my life at all. honestly, i don't know how introverted Fi types might differ from this; maybe ESI is possible in this regard, but i am mostly a loner with very few close friends and mostly casual relationships with people that i only see when i have to see them.

does that sound ESI? i don't think so, but i don't know.

Yes. Perhaps not all ESI's are like this, but generally speaking, ESI's have a small group of close friends and they're not usually thrilled to have to spend time around people outside of that group. They try to be polite. In some situations they may be more social than in other situations. If it's related to their career, for instance, they'd have motivation to be more friendly and social. If it's a situation that they don't care about or don't even want to be in, it's not unlikely that they'd very much keep to themselves and they'd probably want to get out of there as soon as possible.

the other major problem is the whole NT thing. not to be all that MBTI about it, but i'm an intellectual. period. i'm not saying that ESIs can't be intellectual, but to some extent "deep thinking" is a role more naturally suited to intuitive types...

anyway, what does this all point to? i tend to think that i think these sorts of things over a lot and am too intellectually minded to be a sensory type.

I don't think this is necessarily an intuitive thing. Most intelligent people are "deep thinking", and I've noticed that introversion can look like intuition in highly intelligent people. (I've also wondered if ethics can look like intuition in extroverts? Not as confident on that point though, and it's irrelevant to this discussion anyways.)

joy's point about the randomness being more related to Ne than Ni is something i've always wondered about; i've never really seen that as related to Ni at all. it seems more to me like a bunch of loosely connected concepts and basically unrelated random ideas flow through me when i do that, and that's an easy state of mind for me to be in. but it's also one i get tired of easily (i'm not trying to taint this description in any way) and it's just impossible to use for any extended period because communication is halted completely.

This is how I've seen a Ne PoLR expressed in several young male ISxj's. It seems like they do that when they're being flippant?

i can almost sort of see a case for vulnerable Ne, in that i might look upon certain mistakes i've made and try to erase them from memory, but it doesn't really work.

I'm not sure if that's related to Ne or not.

it also strikes me that i'm probably not as emotionally confident as i might appear to be.

Given your demographic and what little I know of your situation, this could make sense for any type (if I understand what you're saying correctly).

this is the only quibble i have with you functionally. there are parts of this that i just don't agree with. i don't think that ILI criticism is necessarily limited to "this won't work," which is in some ways a concept associated with any kind of criticism at all.

basically an ILI might argue with some person about an ideology that doesn't seem sensible to them.

i also think that even that kind of criticism is impersonal; you're not attacking the person, but rather the idea. a person with stupid ideas is not necessarily completely stupid. if people take that personally, it's their problem.

I don't see anything here that would suggest ILI > ESI. My point about the criticism though wasn't so much about what you criticize for, but more so how you do it.

in what ways do you see me criticizing with Se?

You're more forceful and confident than any ILI I've ever seen. I didn't want to come right out and say this, but even confident ILI's have a mousy feel to them.

Also, I think Fe PoLR types are somewhat bothered when they upset people, generally speaking. They don't pay attention to whether or not what they're doing/saying is going to upset people, but if someone gets upset, it's a type of a PoLR hit.

but i tend to believe she probably had something slightly more comprehensive in mind.

Yeah. It's more of an overall impression I have of you. I just don't see you as having weak Se, an IP temperament, and your use of Ne resembles ISxj's I've known.

Joy, I think you actually have a pretty good description of ILI here...better than most. Only the application to Niffweed seems in question. Of the two people who Rick saw as very clearly ILI in NYC, Niffweed actually seems to fit some of the typical descriptions than I do...e.g., he's critical of bizarre theories; I love any new theory

If you were to compare an ESI to an ILI, the ILI would certainly be more opt to discuss and consider new theories. I think the whole "gammas disapprove of new theories" is an Alpha perspective. ILI's generally enjoy discussing theories, new or old. Yes, they are critical in their appraisal of a new theory, but that doesn't mean they're against new theories.

he seems to hate any show of Fe whatsoever; I rather like it; he seemed quiet most of the time; I was very talkative etc.

I'm not sure what you mean by "Fe" here, but I do think that an ESI in that situation would mostly likely be rather quiet and closed. With an ILI, it would mostly depend on the people involved and their behavior.

In NYC, he seemed mostly to observe and make comments from time to time. He seemed pretty "relaxed, go with the flow" to me.

He seemed detachedly reflective in person.

He was quiet much of the time and talked in a reflective manner characteristic of Ni-dominants.

Hard to comment without having been there. (Though I do think term "detachedly reflective" in and of itself could apply to any type of introvert.)

In person, he didn't seem Se. However, he is from NYC where it's the culture to be aggressive, and people there may seem more Se-like than folks from the middle of the country, all other things being equal.

Not sure what you mean by Se, but again, hard to comment without having been there.

Not sure what to make of this one since it's not a conclusive argument in any direction. ILIs might give off certain degrees of Fi or Ti.

As would an ESI. Fi and Ti are both conscious functions for an ESI after all. But you're right, I wasn't trying to suggest Fi > Ti or the reverse (though I think Te > Fe is apparent, but that's not what I was talking about). I was just saying that he often seems to be coming from a Ti/Fi perspective.

Probably not type-related, although it could have to do with subtypes of some sort. I would speculate that when he's on the forum, he feels free to let out all the aggressiveness that he wouldn't in person. People are often less reserved online than in person, because they don't have to worry about the consequences as much.

This is a very good point, one which I considered. It's actually the reason I'm still on the fence regarding whether or not he's ILI.

Same deal. I can't picture Niffweed saying in person some of the things he says online.

That's probably true of most of us.

This is the one analytic point I disagree with. Despite what people say, you don't see Ne types engaging in this kind of make-believe much. Perhaps there's a mixture of Ni and Ne there....but basically outlandish and bizarre mental images do not mean Ne.

I certainly would not expect a Ne type to use Ne the same way someone with a Ne PoLR would. (That's part of the point, actually. I don't really see Ni types acting that way either.)

[Joy]

Two more things:

1.) I'm not trying to make a case against ILI for for ESI. I'm just bringing up the things that make me wonder.

2.) I think that it would almost be expected for a highly intelligent male ESI who hasn't had his 5th or 6th functions fulfilled or his 1st and 2nd functions appreciated to become focused on Ti and/or Ne.

[aestrivex]

Yes. Perhaps not all ESI's are like this, but generally speaking, ESI's have a small group of close friends and they're not usually thrilled to have to spend time around people outside of that group. They try to be polite. In some situations they may be more social than in other situations. If it's related to their career, for instance, they'd have motivation to be more friendly and social. If it's a situation that they don't care about or don't even want to be in, it's not unlikely that they'd very much keep to themselves and they'd probably want to get out of there as soon as possible.

ok, this makes sense in the context of ESIs, but i think that you're oversimplifying a few things. first of all, how different is this from that of a typical ILI? could you see an ILI acting like this?

also, i think, even more importantly, that you're ignoring the part of what i said about Fi. if i'm ESI, i don't understand how my central focus would be on personal relationships. i've gotten criticisms from the ESI i talked about that i don't know how to relate to people. i've also gotten into arguments with her about how other people should be treated (an example: she argued that walmart mistreats its workers and is a company from which nobody should ever shop, for ethical reasons. this was a topic on which i had essentially no information,) which usually result in her using some piece of information that i find questionable, and then descend into arguments about the veracity of this information.

all of the ESI/LIE or Te/Fi duality stuff that you've ever linked to mentions the confidence of the ESI in evaluating personal relationships between other people. essentially, i don't know how this would manifest in an ESI, but i mostly couldn't care less about "what feelings other people have for each other." i don't even know that i understand what it means to have feelings for anyone.

do you see me as having an ethical sort of perspective in this regard? if so, how?