niffweed

[Joy]

ok, this makes sense in the context of ESIs, but i think that you're oversimplifying a few things. first of all, how different is this from that of a typical ILI? could you see an ILI acting like this?

I would think that ILI's would be more open to new people, but all of the effort to make and maintain the relationship would have to be on the other person. This could be said of other types as well though, especially introverted types.

also, i think, even more importantly, that you're ignoring the part of what i said about Fi. if i'm ESI, i don't understand how my central focus would be on personal relationships. i've gotten criticisms from the ESI i talked about that i don't know how to relate to people. i've also gotten into arguments with her about how other people should be treated (an example: she argued that walmart mistreats its workers and is a company from which nobody should ever shop, for ethical reasons. this was a topic on which i had essentially no information,) which usually result in her using some piece of information that i find questionable, and then descend into arguments about the veracity of this information.

all of the ESI/LIE or Te/Fi duality stuff that you've ever linked to mentions the confidence of the ESI in evaluating personal relationships between other people. essentially, i don't know how this would manifest in an ESI, but i mostly couldn't care less about "what feelings other people have for each other." i don't even know that i understand what it means to have feelings for anyone.

http://socionics.us/practice/ego.shtml

That, and your lack of life experience due to your age and life stage, would be the only answers I can think of. However, imo they're quite feasible. Oh yeah, and I still owe you a PM.

The stuff about walmart I think is more individual specific than anything. I know people all of types who say that kind of thing about walmart.

do you see me as having an ethical sort of perspective in this regard? if so, how?

I wouldn't know. I see what could be a focus on Ti/Fi > Te/Fe in you though, as well as Se/Ne > Si/Ni. I could be misunderstanding you though. But if not, this would suggest that you're EP or IJ, and we know that you're not EP.

[aestrivex]

I don't see anything here that would suggest ILI > ESI. My point about the criticism though wasn't so much about what you criticize for, but more so how you do it.

honestly, i really don't see a case here. it only makes sense that Te would be confident about Te-related stuff; if a Te type is criticizing aspects of a theory on a Te basis, why on earth wouldn't they be confident about doing it?

by way of comparison, take criticism made by some of the Se types (ashton, FDG, etc). it usually ends up in flame wars. there's no argument that some of my criticisms result in the same, but would you say that throwing around insults on an ashton/FDG/gilly basis is my normal modus operandi?

here are a few brief examples taken from various sources on wikisocion.

Lol, more pompous dickheadedness from you as usual. Expat, just because your little LSE brain doesn't understand what was said, doesn't mean it's meaningless. Don't twist my words around either to say what I didn't say. Fucking bloated gasbag PoS

Lol, like I have anything to hide from you. Want me to put them back? Because I will; they make you look like even more of a jackass. I deleted them because your bullshit is polluting an otherwise productive place; you're lucky I haven't gotten rid of the rest of your blabbering nonsense. Go ahead and ask Herzy what she thinks; you're in for a surprise. And, like I said, the retyping is BASED OFF OF EVENTS FROM THE PAST AND THINGS THAT HAVE ALWAYS BEEN TRUE; not sure how that escaped your s00per awesome Te-dar, lol. Now hurry back and let your Socionix minions suck on your insecure little prick ; the only thing that gives a shit about your opinion here is the tally.

Did I act surprised? No. I perfectly anticipated how most would take it and I made it explicit how I knew people would react in response. I said I didn't have a "logical explanation" right now, but he wanted some input so I said what I could at the time - meaning to imply that at a later in time, I would have something more comprehensive. This wasn't to be taken as a comprehensive argument, just a purely subjective opinion based on purely subjective grounds - AS I FUCKING SAID IN THERE LOL. Ugh robots! And you know, even when I do offer detailed, comprehensive, and logically coordinated arguments rooted in Socionics doctrine - most of you STILL do not listen and simply wave your hands and continue to tout around whatever personal agendas you deem as true. Which on precisely that same note - why do we take anything seriously that you say Expat? It's not like you ever have anything of substance to back your arguments other than vague a priori premises about this or that, masked with a facade of expertise and yea-saying by a gaggle of groupies who have been suckered into the delusion.

if you put your bs on pages clearly stating something to the effect of "THIS PAGE REPRESENTS AN ENTIRELY THEORETICAL, SHIT-INFESTED {{L}} HYPOTHESIS. I AM AN IDIOT. THIS IDEA IS NOT WIDELY ACCEPTED IN CLASSICAL SOCIONICS" i will have no problem with anything that you write. others may vary in their opinions, but i consider your bs on real pages to be vandalism and will treat it as such. end of story.

listen you dipshit. you are one of the biggest fucking dummies to come around socionics territory. i tried to tell it to you straight, but you don't listen. so go and do whatever the fuck you feel like, i don't care because clearly you don't either. but STOP REVERTING THE EDITS. saying that the theory is partially compatible, even to your trash-filled cerebrum, is about as kind and over-objective as it comes. in short as long as i am around this wiki it will adhere to a neutral perspective, and i am not going to let your braindead I AM RIGHT ALL HAIL MY THEORY BRILLIANCE DESPITE THE FACT THAT ALL OF MY CONCLUSIONS MAKE NO SENSE AND ARE TOTALLY WRONG attitude change the objectivity of this wiki. the three revert rule does not apply. now go away.

i don't know if all of these are the best examples, but in each of the above cases, it looks (to me anyway) like i'm sort of addressing the point in question, whereas other people are not. perhaps this is a result of Ti/Te preference rather than ego Te; i wasn't able to find anything good from FDG.

and i wasn't able to find anything remotely similar to these kind of "out-of-control Se displays" from alleged ESIs like discojoe or diana, who seem to be more Fi in their arguments. consider this one:

Post something constructive or fuck off you asshole. No one likes you or thinks you're funny.

------------------------------------------------------------

Also, I think Fe PoLR types are somewhat bothered when they upset people, generally speaking. They don't pay attention to whether or not what they're doing/saying is going to upset people, but if someone gets upset, it's a type of a PoLR hit.

i don't think that's inapplicable to me.

If you were to compare an ESI to an ILI, the ILI would certainly be more opt to discuss and consider new theories. I think the whole "gammas disapprove of new theories" is an Alpha perspective. ILI's generally enjoy discussing theories, new or old. Yes, they are critical in their appraisal of a new theory, but that doesn't mean they're against new theories.

i would differentiate between discussing sensible theories that happen to be new and discussing stupid theories that make no sense that happen to be new. i don't know that i am opposed to new ideas (i can sort of see the case for it though) simply because they're new.

i also do think that new ideas in and of themselves are not something the gamma quadra is particularly favorable towards.

As would an ESI. Fi and Ti are both conscious functions for an ESI after all. But you're right, I wasn't trying to suggest Fi > Ti or the reverse (though I think Te > Fe is apparent, but that's not what I was talking about). I was just saying that he often seems to be coming from a Ti/Fi perspective.

i don't think you've explained very well how i might be coming from a Ti/Fi perspective. the idea that i might be certain of ethical convictions (ie in saying that, if somebody acts with Fe, i will respond aggressively and be confident that doing so is the right thing to do) might suggest confidence, and, to an extent, an Fi worldview, but there are numerous other components of an Fi worldview that you're ignoring.

and i don't see any kind of a case for a Ti worldview at all.

[aestrivex]

I would think that ILI's would be more open to new people, but all of the effort to make and maintain the relationship would have to be on the other person. This could be said of other types as well though, especially introverted types.

it's less comprehensive, but this sounds more accurate to me than the other description about how you saw ESIs as acting.


all in all, i don't think there's all that much difference however between the two, and distinguishing between them probably isn't very useful for typing purposes because of the inherent similarities.

[ScarlettLux]

I'm niffweed's Dual

[aestrivex]

also, i think, even more importantly, that you're ignoring the part of what i said about Fi. if i'm ESI, i don't understand how my central focus would be on personal relationships. i've gotten criticisms from the ESI i talked about that i don't know how to relate to people. i've also gotten into arguments with her about how other people should be treated (an example: she argued that walmart mistreats its workers and is a company from which nobody should ever shop, for ethical reasons. this was a topic on which i had essentially no information,) which usually result in her using some piece of information that i find questionable, and then descend into arguments about the veracity of this information.

all of the ESI/LIE or Te/Fi duality stuff that you've ever linked to mentions the confidence of the ESI in evaluating personal relationships between other people. essentially, i don't know how this would manifest in an ESI, but i mostly couldn't care less about "what feelings other people have for each other." i don't even know that i understand what it means to have feelings for anyone.

http://socionics.us/practice/ego.shtml

i don't understand what that has to do with my relationship towards Fi. do you think that i would be good at giving Fi-related help to somebody, a la the "eric is strange" example??

That, and your lack of life experience due to your age and life stage

[...]

The stuff about walmart I think is more individual specific than anything. I know people all of types who say that kind of thing about walmart.

fair enough.

[aestrivex]

1.) I'm not trying to make a case against ILI for for ESI. I'm just bringing up the things that make me wonder.

and many of them, in particular the Ne/Ni related stuff, seem like very good points. but IMO you're not considering the whole picture of ESIs or ILIs.

[aestrivex]

I'm niffweed's Dual

shut up and go away. this discussion is actually interesting.

[ScarlettLux]

shut up and go away. this discussion is actually interesting.

<3 Bitter words are how I show my affection too

[Ezra]

on niff's type:

he always comes up with this weird language remarks to point out how stupid your posts are, but he he just does it for fun. it may be serious sometimes but most of the time it's just what it is usually with niff.

this is definitely not an ego block. i mean would any type be that "crazy"? i doubt intps are that fucked in the head. i would personally guess it's either an id or some child block, possibly superego>superid, 'cos it's just way too over the top and abnormal. the functions used are usually Ni, Te, Ti, Se, Ne is never used. possible block pairs are: Ni bw Te, Se bw Ti and Ne bw Ti. NT blocks > in number than ST blocks, so a democratic type. so niff's SE (the overthetop child we usually see) possibly is either Ni bw Te or Ne bw Ti. i think we see Ni>>>Ne and Te>>>>>>>Ti, which brings us to a possibility of niff having a supergo block of Ni bw Te making him ......... an alpha SF lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lololololololololololololololololololololololololo lolololololololololol

You talk shit, dee. And your signature makes it look like you want to be niffweed.

[Joy]

and many of them, in particular the Ne/Ni related stuff, seem like very good points. but IMO you're not considering the whole picture of ESIs or ILIs.

Actually, my reason for questioning whether or not you're an ILI is based on the whole picture... much more so than individual points. The overall picture I have of you is inconsistent with that of ILI's I've know. It's closer to that of ISxj's I've know. However, I have not met you irl so perhaps I have in inaccurate picture of you. Nothing that's been said in this thread significantly changes it though.

i don't understand what that has to do with my relationship towards Fi. do you think that i would be good at giving Fi-related help to somebody, a la the "eric is strange" example??

Who?

Basically what I'm saying is that even if you have Fi in your ego block, you may not make good use of it if your environment or the people in your life have not encouraged, needed, or rewarded Fi from you.

all in all, i don't think there's all that much difference however between the two, and distinguishing between them probably isn't very useful for typing purposes because of the inherent similarities.

I very much agree.

shut up and go away. this discussion is actually interesting.

Post something constructive or fuck off you asshole. No one likes you or thinks you're funny.

honestly, i really don't see a case here. it only makes sense that Te would be confident about Te-related stuff; if a Te type is criticizing aspects of a theory on a Te basis, why on earth wouldn't they be confident about doing it?

The problem here is what each of us considers Te. I'm not disagreeing with you (though I'm not agreeing either), but I can't know that we're talking about the same thing. Like I said earlier, I sometimes wonder if people see Ti/Fi + Se in you and assume they're seeing Te. It could very well be Te. I'm just not assuming that it is.

by way of comparison, take criticism made by some of the Se types (ashton, FDG, etc). it usually ends up in flame wars. there's no argument that some of my criticisms result in the same, but would you say that throwing around insults on an ashton/FDG/gilly basis is my normal modus operandi?

I'm not sure it's fair to compare EP Se to IJ Se, especially if the EP Se is Ti + Se and the IJ Se is Fi + Se.

here are a few brief examples taken from various sources on wikisocion.

You don't think it's possible that you supervise any of them? (Not that it means anything, but I've wondered at times why Ashton would have such a big problem with you if you were his illusionary partner.)

i don't know if all of these are the best examples, but in each of the above cases, it looks (to me anyway) like i'm sort of addressing the point in question, whereas other people are not. perhaps this is a result of Ti/Te preference rather than ego Te

I see what you're saying about seeing the real issue, but that could be because you simply have a different perspective on the situation. It's your page and your project. And the way you responded does sound Se to me.

I know this isn't always the most reliable way to go about typing, but for a moment consider the way other Te types on the forum deal with confrontation. I haven't seen Te creatives or even Te dominants respond in the manner than you did. The examples would be few and far between because Te + Ni types are generally uncomfortable saying that sort of thing (even online) and probably only would if there was some sort of unusually frustrating situation or they were really pissed off or irritable or whatever because it's not usually easy for them to interact with others in that manner. Even online it's a manner of speaking in which they aren't confident enough to use with ease. You, on the other hand, seem to be quite confident in your use of that type of communication.

Also consider the problems you and mcnew had... if you were just using Te, why would he, a Delta NT, respond so poorly? If you think of mcnew as having a Se PoLR though (or even super ego Se), it would make sense for him to respond to Fi + Se the way he did.

and i wasn't able to find anything remotely similar to these kind of "out-of-control Se displays" from alleged ESIs like discojoe or diana, who seem to be more Fi in their arguments. consider this one:

Not sure what you were getting at here?

i don't think that's inapplicable to me.

Having re-read what I wrote, it could probably be applicable to any type. What I was getting at is that ILI's are more likely to care if they upset people than ESI's, but of course that depends on how and why the people are upset and how and why it comes to the ILI's/ESI's attention and who it is. But like we said, that aspect of ILI's/ESI's isn't the best way to distinguish the two. There are just too many similarities and too many possible variables involved.

i would differentiate between discussing sensible theories that happen to be new and discussing stupid theories that make no sense that happen to be new. i don't know that i am opposed to new ideas (i can sort of see the case for it though) simply because they're new.

High intelligence also makes this difficult to use as a determining factor, not to mention the fact that theories can be presented with many different possible information elements. Generally speaking though, both ILI's and ESI's would shoot holes through any theory that's presented to them, new or old.

i also do think that new ideas in and of themselves are not something the gamma quadra is particularly favorable towards.

From an Ne perspective this may be true, but overall I think that Gamma is just as fond of new theories as any other quadra, provided they are sound and useful. But change just for the sake of change is not something that Gamma is generally keen on.

i don't think you've explained very well how i might be coming from a Ti/Fi perspective.

I've sort of avoided it because I may end up talking about how your use of rational functions seem to be more based on the statics of fields rather than dynamics of objects.

Basically, your rational reasoning and judgment (as I understand them) seem to be coming from fixed points. It would take me a while to get into that though, and I'm going to be watching anime with my kid shortly.

Rest assured though that I did not try to use information elements from that perspective and analyze your posts. I more noticed something that can be explained through use of that portion of the theory.

the idea that i might be certain of ethical convictions (ie in saying that, if somebody acts with Fe, i will respond aggressively and be confident that doing so is the right thing to do) might suggest confidence, and, to an extent, an Fi worldview, but there are numerous other components of an Fi worldview that you're ignoring.

Yeah. Have you seen much of what I've said about the 7th function? These threads aren't about the 7th function specifically, but I discuss it in them:

http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=15625
http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...ad.php?t=11259

and i don't see any kind of a case for a Ti worldview at all.

No, I don't either. I can't see you as Ti/Fe > Te/Fi based on what I know about you thus far. Ti would be a conscious function though, if you were ESI.

[Exodus]

Let us please stop this craziness. Niffweed is not ISFj.

[Joy]

That's exactly the type of response most people have whenever I mention that a forum member's long standing type consensus may not be correct or bring up another possible type for them.

[Phaedrus]

And that kind of response may be wrong in most cases, Joy. But what kind of response is appropriate in this particular case, where we know beyond reasonable doubt that niffweed is definitely not an ISFj?

[aestrivex]

Basically what I'm saying is that even if you have Fi in your ego block, you may not make good use of it if your environment or the people in your life have not encouraged, needed, or rewarded Fi from you.

yeah; i understand that, i just can't think of how i might have offered any of them any Fi at any point.

The problem here is what each of us considers Te. I'm not disagreeing with you (though I'm not agreeing either), but I can't know that we're talking about the same thing. Like I said earlier, I sometimes wonder if people see Ti/Fi + Se in you and assume they're seeing Te. It could very well be Te. I'm just not assuming that it is.

well, think about my style of argumentation. i'm not going to go through this with you and point out every last detail of what might be Te and what might not, because you understand this already and you have the capacity to observe discussions and try to investigate for yourself.

do you see Te from me (in serious discussions, like this one)?

I see what you're saying about seeing the real issue, but that could be because you simply have a different perspective on the situation. It's your page and your project. And the way you responded does sound Se to me.

to clarify: those excerpts of mine were not from the project page. that's because, as you said, it was my page and i hadn't engaged in anything remotely similar on it. (the other excerpts from ashton and gilly were from the project page). my examples were from the talk pages of hitta and machintruc, respectively, for whom i have no respect at all.



a fundamental point of your argument seems to be this idea that only Se types can say these kinds of things like "OMFG U DICKHEAD GO SOAK YOUR HEAD IN A BARREL OF WATER WHERE NOBODY CAN SEE IT BLAH BLAH BLAH YOURE SO STUPID etc."

here are a couple of other questions to consider. is this kind of thing my regular modus operandi? is it something that i do a lot, or only when i think something is really stupid, or only on certain occasions, or <any other scenario>? how does it compare, in both content and tone, to other Se types?

are there any other non-Se types around here who do the same thing?

also (and this is a very important point, i think), how does this compare with what i was doing when i first found this arcane community? how might simply being a part of it have changed my behavior? and, if there is any change, how much does this have to do with the internet and how much of this might have influenced my behavior IRL?


the answers to these questions are very subjective, but are nonetheless important factors.

Also consider the problems you and mcnew had... if you were just using Te, why would he, a Delta NT, respond so poorly? If you think of mcnew as having a Se PoLR though (or even super ego Se), it would make sense for him to respond to Fi + Se the way he did.

differing quadra values?

I've sort of avoided it because I may end up talking about how your use of rational functions seem to be more based on the statics of fields rather than dynamics of objects.

Basically, your rational reasoning and judgment (as I understand them) seem to be coming from fixed points. It would take me a while to get into that though, and I'm going to be watching anime with my kid shortly.

Rest assured though that I did not try to use information elements from that perspective and analyze your posts. I more noticed something that can be explained through use of that portion of the theory.

if you can explain this to me without referring to that crap, great. otherwise, don't bother.

[aestrivex]

Let us please stop this craziness. Niffweed is not ISFj.

i really don't know what the problem is. i'm not sure i buy myself as an ESI at all, but joy has a very good case here.

[discojoe]

Rotfl At This Thread Only Showing How Delirious Joy Has Become

Nothing delirious about it.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[Exodus]

The main reason I think it's crazy is because I've met niffweed in person, and would have a very difficult time seeing him as strong in either ethics or sensing. Every socionic activity we did at the conference confirmed this.

[Creepy-Diana]

.

[implied]

The main reason I think it's crazy is because I've met niffweed in person, and would have a very difficult time seeing him as strong in either ethics or sensing. Every socionic activity we did at the conference confirmed this.

i seriously wish i'd been there for these activities. what did you guys do anyhow? or has this been written up somewhere?

anyhow, i have a very hard time seeing him as sensing or ethical, just by what i can glean from the forum. i mean he sort of screams NT to me. otherwise, i guess the best bet would be some other NT.

[Blaze]

i've never had any reason to doubt niff as an ILI. seems dead on, complete with sarcasm, wit, and eff the man tendencies.....

[Exodus]

i seriously wish i'd been there for these activities. what did you guys do anyhow? or has this been written up somewhere?

A vague outline is at wikisocion.org.

We did tasks in pairs and answered questions that required the use of certain information elements. niffweed also gave a demonstration of his Ni worldview, as Rick mentioned. As I recall it had something to do with seeing reality as some kind of geometric shape...

[Wittmont]

I concur with Niff as ILI, subtype lowbrow (he could be a highbrow tho). The NT is strong in that one. And he is very much an I. And everybody knows ILI's are brutes without humour, and not shaving for two weeks is very brutish so he clearly is a p rather than j.

[ScarlettLux]

A vague outline is at wikisocion.org.

We did tasks in pairs and answered questions that required the use of certain information elements. niffweed also gave a demonstration of his Ni worldview, as Rick mentioned. As I recall it had something to do with seeing reality as some kind of geometric shape...

Hey, I've always wondered - did you (or anyone who attended can answer) feel dorky at all discussing Socionics in that manner in real life? Reading the summary of events and such, I dunno, I would be feeling very awkward and probably would burst into laughter quite a few times. How did you handle it? I'm just curious about the whole atmosphere of it all ...

[Exodus]

Interesting question...it felt weird at first saying the type names and such aloud, but it quickly became natural. It was really much nicer talking about it IRL (so much that we mostly avoided talking about the forum). It was also a LOT easier to see and explain the nuances of the information elements.

[Joy]

I haven't read the whole thread, but ISFj doesn't seem especially likely to me.

I'll read the thread now, but I'm very doubtful of that conclusion. It doesn't seem to make much sense at all to me.

There was never any conclusion on my part. I was just bringing up the possibility.

[implied]

on niff's type:

he always comes up with this weird language remarks to point out how stupid your posts are, but he he just does it for fun. it may be serious sometimes but most of the time it's just what it is usually with niff.

this is definitely not an ego block. i mean would any type be that "crazy"? i doubt intps are that fucked in the head. i would personally guess it's either an id or some child block, possibly superego>superid, 'cos it's just way too over the top and abnormal. the functions used are usually Ni, Te, Ti, Se, Ne is never used. possible block pairs are: Ni bw Te, Se bw Ti and Ne bw Ti. NT blocks > in number than ST blocks, so a democratic type. so niff's SE (the overthetop child we usually see) possibly is either Ni bw Te or Ne bw Ti. i think we see Ni>>>Ne and Te>>>>>>>Ti, which brings us to a possibility of niff having a supergo block of Ni bw Te making him ......... an alpha SF.

lol wtf?

[eliphalet]

Hey, I've always wondered - did you (or anyone who attended can answer) feel dorky at all discussing Socionics in that manner in real life? Reading the summary of events and such, I dunno, I would be feeling very awkward and probably would burst into laughter quite a few times. How did you handle it? I'm just curious about the whole atmosphere of it all ...

I felt pretty awkward at the seminar, since everyone knew what they were talking about and stuff, and I didn't wanna say anything stupid. Me and my beta crew did seem out of place as we were just playing around and laughing the whole time. I think you woulda fit in. So basically, the thing was a major dork fest

[Joy]

yeah; i understand that, i just can't think of how i might have offered any of them any Fi at any point.

Let's say there's this hypothetical situation in which a highly intelligent male grew up in an environment that didn't encourage him to use Fi. No one there wanted/needed it from him. His interests are that of most highly intelligent introverted males in his age group (many of them generally thought of as typical NT interests). Let's say this person has not been in any serious, long term adult relationships and had not lived out on his own, complete with a full time job and his own household to run. (Note that what I've described so far would apply to most of the males on this forum, btw, except perhaps the bit about Fi.)

I would not expect this male to read descriptions of Fi in types with strong Fi and readily relate to them. Regardless of his type, if this male had limited social interest/success I would not anticipate that he'd readily see himself as having strong Fi or Fe. And because he he is highly intelligent, lives in a society that expects males to be more less "feelery" than females, has a lot of interests that are generally thought of as NT types of things, he could very easily see himself as having interest and strength in both Ti and Te.

I would not expect someone in the above situation to understand how he could have strong Fi until he's had more life experiences, especially serious, long term relationships.

well, think about my style of argumentation. i'm not going to go through this with you and point out every last detail of what might be Te and what might not, because you understand this already and you have the capacity to observe discussions and try to investigate for yourself.

do you see Te from me (in serious discussions, like this one)?

I've typed out a few responses to this question and deleted them. Without knowing what's going on in your head it's difficult to say for certain. I've already given a brief summary of what I see and don't see generally speaking, and I don't have a particularly strong impression of any of the information elements in you in this conversation. (I don't like to analyze something specific as don't think that's generally a good way of typing people. It's more a matter of something standing out to me as being one thing or another. It doesn't happen with everyone or in every interaction though.)

to clarify: those excerpts of mine were not from the project page. that's because, as you said, it was my page and i hadn't engaged in anything remotely similar on it. (the other excerpts from ashton and gilly were from the project page). my examples were from the talk pages of hitta and machintruc, respectively, for whom i have no respect at all.

That seems more Te then. (I do think you probably have a different perspective regarding the wiki than most people do though.)

a fundamental point of your argument seems to be this idea that only Se types can say these kinds of things like "OMFG U DICKHEAD GO SOAK YOUR HEAD IN A BARREL OF WATER WHERE NOBODY CAN SEE IT BLAH BLAH BLAH YOURE SO STUPID etc."

Only? Of course not. Some people use that type of language more confidently and appropriately than other people do though. (And Se is about a lot more than that kind of thing, of course.)

here are a couple of other questions to consider. is this kind of thing my regular modus operandi? is it something that i do a lot, or only when i think something is really stupid, or only on certain occasions, or <any other scenario>?

There's two aspects, one is what I have suggested may be Se and the other is what I've suggested may be super ego Ne.

The Se I mainly see when you criticize or confront people. The Super ego Ne I see more often than not, and it's mostly in casual postings.

how does it compare, in both content and tone, to other Se types?

The content (or at least comparable content) and tone is very similar to that of several Se creative types I've known. I can't think of anyone else I've known that I'd say you're similar to in content and tone.

are there any other non-Se types around here who do the same thing?

I can't think of any. Perhaps someone else can?

also (and this is a very important point, i think), how does this compare with what i was doing when i first found this arcane community? how might simply being a part of it have changed my behavior? and, if there is any change, how much does this have to do with the internet

I don't remember what you were like when you first came here. I can't think of anyone whose come here that have used the same communications styles immediately without getting chased off. New members usually make themselves at home before they start harshly criticizing members, spamming nonsense, or repeatedly doing anything else that could really upset people.

and how much of this might have influenced my behavior IRL?

That I couldn't answer.

differing quadra values?

Perhaps. It struck me as being different than what you'd typically expect from a Delta NF/ILI interaction though. (Again, I'm not saying that you aren't ILI, just bringing up things that make me question it.)

Honestly, the first time I seriously considered any other typings for you was after your conversation with mcnew about coming back here.

if you can explain this to me without referring to that crap, great. otherwise, don't bother.

Let's just call it the general feel I get from you then. I know that's not very helpful, but like I said, I'm just offering my personal observations, not trying to make a case for or against anything.

[Joy]

sarcasm, wit, and eff the man tendencies.....

These traits are certainly common in types other than ILI's as well.

not shaving for two weeks is very brutish so he clearly is a p rather than j.

This is humor, right?

[Wittmont]

Yup >_<

[Blaze]

These traits are certainly common in types other than ILI's as well.

perhaps. but i'd venture to say that nobody is anywhere near as sarcastic as niffweed with the possible exception of sychophant, another ILI.

[Joy]

I doubt sara is ILI.

[Gilly]

I doubt sara is ILI.

+1. IEI is a pretty sure bet IMO.

[implied]

I doubt sara is ILI.

i think sara as ILI is probably a safer bet than niffweed as ESI.

[Joy]

i think sara as ILI is probably a safer bet than niffweed as ESI.

I wouldn't wager on those typings for either of them. The only typings I would place a wager on are here and perhaps here.

[aestrivex]

Let's say there's this hypothetical situation in which a highly intelligent male grew up in an environment that didn't encourage him to use Fi. No one there wanted/needed it from him. His interests are that of most highly intelligent introverted males in his age group (many of them generally thought of as typical NT interests). Let's say this person has not been in any serious, long term adult relationships and had not lived out on his own, complete with a full time job and his own household to run. (Note that what I've described so far would apply to most of the males on this forum, btw, except perhaps the bit about Fi.)

I would not expect this male to read descriptions of Fi in types with strong Fi and readily relate to them. Regardless of his type, if this male had limited social interest/success I would not anticipate that he'd readily see himself as having strong Fi or Fe. And because he he is highly intelligent, lives in a society that expects males to be more less "feelery" than females, has a lot of interests that are generally thought of as NT types of things, he could very easily see himself as having interest and strength in both Ti and Te.

I would not expect someone in the above situation to understand how he could have strong Fi until he's had more life experiences, especially serious, long term relationships.

yeah, i understand that, but i also think that there should be some evidence somewhere of Fi. is my bickering with mcnew about free speech enough to convince you? (i'm also pretty staunch on the issue of free speech, as some of people who have for years studied my life in depth may have begun to realize)

consider this: do you think i'm demonstrating as much (or more) Fi to you than discojoe?

There's two aspects, one is what I have suggested may be Se and the other is what I've suggested may be super ego Ne.

The Se I mainly see when you criticize or confront people. The Super ego Ne I see more often than not, and it's mostly in casual postings.

basically, what kind of made me wonder for a long time about being LII was the extent to which i use Ne. perhaps through a misinterpretation of functions, i sometimes view the sort of random blather that i post as Ne, just sort of because it feels like totally unrelated concepts are passing through my brain. i think you saw that description earlier.

you've talked about it, but i don't really think you've explained why my relationship to randomidity (a coined phrase) demonstrates a dislike or lack of Ne.

any points that you might have made about dislike of new ideas aside.

I can't think of any. Perhaps someone else can?

two obvious examples are jadae and krae/indigoroom (although krae is not somebody who i would be confident in typing at all). possible others might include hitta and lefty.

notice: all Se valuing types.

these are all my typings; if you include some of other people's typings on the issue where you have Se types that are not considered Se types this list can be far more expansive, but i will spare you the agony of that discussion.

[Joy]

yeah, i understand that, but i also think that there should be some evidence somewhere of Fi. is my bickering with mcnew about free speech enough to convince you? (i'm also pretty staunch on the issue of free speech, as some of people who have for years studied my life in depth may have begun to realize)

consider this: do you think i'm demonstrating as much (or more) Fi to you than discojoe?

I should hope not!

Seriously though, I don't know. I can't compare irl behavior, but if I compared your forum behavior to his... well, I still don't know.

basically, what kind of made me wonder for a long time about being LII was the extent to which i use Ne. perhaps through a misinterpretation of functions, i sometimes view the sort of random blather that i post as Ne, just sort of because it feels like totally unrelated concepts are passing through my brain. i think you saw that description earlier.

you've talked about it, but i don't really think you've explained why my relationship to randomidity (a coined phrase) demonstrates a dislike or lack of Ne.

any points that you might have made about dislike of new ideas aside.

It's not the type of Ne you'd see in someone with Ne in their ego block. I guess I've associated it with Ne in the super ego, but perhaps it's more a matter of Se in the ego block? (The reason I've attributed it to super ego Ne is that I knew a couple super ego Ne types who did this and seemed to think their randomness was similar to humor used by Ne ego types.) I've seen a lot of SEE's and sometimes sensory subtype SLE's do this too (though in a somewhat different way), when they're not being totally serious they come up with this crazy unrelated (or barely related) stuff.

two obvious examples are jadae and krae/indigoroom (although krae is not somebody who i would be confident in typing at all). possible others might include hitta and lefty.

notice: all Se valuing types.

these are all my typings; if you include some of other people's typings on the issue where you have Se types that are not considered Se types this list can be far more expansive, but i will spare you the agony of that discussion.

Your posts don't seem much like any of theirs to me.

[Expat]

Your posts don't seem much like any of theirs to me.

Yeah, they're different. The "Se" posts of the other -- people niffweed and Joy listed are more like, insane, to me. I see them as more threatening, in a way, because they are being "Se" while being unpredictable and insane.

niffweed, when using Se, no matter how sarcastic, remains sane. Which I'd also say in FDG's case, btw.

These are my subjective impressions, fwiw.

[Joy]

My subjective impressions:

The Ni types listed lack a certain "edge", even when they're throwing out their worst insults. Ashton and FDG have that "edge", but it's totally non-threatening. Niffweed seems to have that "edge" that Se types I've known have (at least here he does), but I don't think of it as threatening or not threatening. It just is.