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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    snegledmeca, I find your posts here interesting to read and I think you make valid points. Thank you for posting.
    A Supervisor reacting well to her Supervisee's posts? Hmmm...

    It would make much more sense if Elena was snegledmaca's Mirror.

    Elena, I'd like to know what exactly why you don't think you're an EIE. Lay it out for me. Alternatively, you could lay yourself out (Just kidding, don't take my pseudo-sexism to heart.)
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Also, Elena, a point. Beta Fe we've established in other threads is very different Alpha Fe. Very. And aut0's absolutely right; it does NOT equate to being loud and obnoxious. If it did, I would not be Beta, for the simple fact that I do not value loud and obnoxious behaviour.

    Understand that Fe leading is not something to degrade. At all. fe leading A massive amount of historical figures have been EIEs. Check out the socionics.us page. See what a bunch of geeks the LIEs are. See how amazing the EIEs are (okay, nothing compared to SLEs, I'll give you that ). And read this completely unflattering description of Fe leading to see what it's REALLY like:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion
    The individual is keenly aware of emotions being displayed around him and responds to them immediately, without particularly thinking about it. Additionally, the individual has a keen grasp of:

    * what people are passionate about
    * excitement and liveliness
    * agitation and irritation
    * shock and amazement
    * distress and gloominess

    The individual perceives reality primarily through the prism of the external emotional atmosphere around him, mainly but not exclusively from the other people present. For instance, the "vibe" given off by a particular place, landscape, work of art, movie etc will also be registered as very significant for the individual.

    The individual is inclined to take proactive action to steer that emotional environment in the direction he himself considers appropriate and agreeable in a given situation. Typical examples are: attempts to "liven up" the atmosphere with jokes if people are seen as unnecessarily gloomy or, conversely, to get people in a serious, work-like attitude if seen as inconveniently jolly during a crisis situation. External emotions are perceived by the individual as an accurate reflection of other people's inner state, since that generally applies to the individual himself.
    And specific to EIEs:

    Quote Originally Posted by Wikisocion
    EIEs are naturally animate and passionate and are skilled at generating liveliness and excitement. They believe that people need to be emotionally involved in life, not distant or indifferent to the important things that are happening. EIEs often hold strong views about governance and social custom, though their beliefs stem from the interests of their close emotional relationships.

    EIEs like to involve people in interaction and create groups based around a shared experience. They tend to try to continually broaden these groups and engage people who seem to be on the sidelines. The individuals who the EIE is spending time with are far more important to the EIE than the event that is actually taking place.

    EIEs like to make their friends laugh, and employ an over the top style of humor. Often the joke is on the EIE, whether or not they know it.
    Shit, I've just thought. Perhaps you're an SLE. (This is just a gut instinct though.) After all, I came to this forum thinking I was an LIE (ENTj) or LSE (ESTj) and everyone started typing me as an EIE (ENFj) which really pissed me off. Because I knew I was not that. People were saying "talk to Kristiina", so I did. And I felt no affinity with her at all. Perhaps I shared the same values as her, but I knew I was not an EIE. It was a foreign concept to me. However, I advise you to talk to her. Just so you can cross EIE off your list of types to consider. And who knows, perhaps you'll change your mind about your type.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Shit, I've just thought. Perhaps you're an SLE. (This is just a gut instinct though.)
    This is why Kristiina keeps saying that you are not consistent enough to be LSI. ENFjs dislike that kind of suddenly voiced out "gut instincts" which pretty much conflict with everything else you have said so far.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    snegledmeca, I find your posts here interesting to read and I think you make valid points. Thank you for posting.
    A Supervisor reacting well to her Supervisee's posts? Hmmm...

    It would make much more sense if Elena was snegledmaca's Mirror.
    Hmm, yeah, I don't think you should be using me as a reference point. I'm not entirely certain in the validity of my typing. Some things don't match. Fundamental things.

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    I'm back, assholes! Herzy's Avatar
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    It's totally possible for a supervisor to think that a supervisee has good points. It happens all the time between me and my LII bro, and me and my ESI mom. So I don't think that one statement on Elena's part is enough to make her a different type.
    , Se-sub
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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    It's totally possible for a supervisor to think that a supervisee has good points. It happens all the time between me and my LII bro, and me and my ESI mom. So I don't think that one statement on Elena's part is enough to make her a different type.
    Good point.

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    Not to mention that she doesn't really know me, and most likely has a glancing impression of my forum persona. That would also add to the potential imprecision of that statement.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    This is why Kristiina keeps saying that you are not consistent enough to be LSI. ENFjs dislike that kind of suddenly voiced out "gut instincts" which pretty much conflict with everything else you have said so far.
    Oh did she? I didn't notice that.

    Yeah, that makes sense to me. Definitely. It is pretty much the distinguishing feature for me being SLE over LSI; my ability to say shit like that and feel confident in it.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Hmm, yeah, I don't think you should be using me as a reference point. I'm not entirely certain in the validity of my typing. Some things don't match. Fundamental things.
    Hahahaha.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    I'm starting to think that the foundations on which socionics is built are absolute bullshit. Every time I think of something about a relation, it always so happens that everyone can 'get on' with even their conflictors! What's the point of this theory if everyone gets along? I thought it was s'posed to show why LIIs think SEEs are dickheads, and why EIIs never live within a mile of an SLE, and why ILIs are sickened by ESEs, and why SLIs would rather stare at a piece of cheese than listen to a speech from an EIE.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I'm starting to think that the foundations on which socionics is built are absolute bullshit. Every time I think of something about a relation, it always so happens that everyone can 'get on' with even their conflictors! What's the point of this theory if everyone gets along? I thought it was s'posed to show why LIIs think SEEs are dickheads, and why EIIs never live within a mile of an SLE, and why ILIs are sickened by ESEs, and why SLIs would rather stare at a piece of cheese than listen to a speech from an EIE.
    I agree. However it is possible that influences outside the "realm" of socionics are causing mayhem within the theory. Like, say, personal growth, self development, ability to reach a compromise and so on.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I'm starting to think that the foundations on which socionics is built are absolute bullshit. Every time I think of something about a relation, it always so happens that everyone can 'get on' with even their conflictors! What's the point of this theory if everyone gets along? I thought it was s'posed to show why LIIs think SEEs are dickheads, and why EIIs never live within a mile of an SLE, and why ILIs are sickened by ESEs, and why SLIs would rather stare at a piece of cheese than listen to a speech from an EIE.
    Because relationships are far more than just "get on" with others.

    LOL at your Fi PoLR.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    It's totally possible for a supervisor to think that a supervisee has good points. It happens all the time between me and my LII bro, and me and my ESI mom. So I don't think that one statement on Elena's part is enough to make her a different type.
    I agree. In fact, I know that I have also found myself agreeing with Discojoe at numerous times, but that hardly makes me an LIE or Discojoe an ESE.
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    Heh, socionics can be useful for some things, but people who think that they can use socionics to "predict" who will "get along" with who are fooling themselves. Even though socionics provides a loosely accurate model of which types will understand each other the easiest and have the most compatible values, taking the intertype relations as gospel will just lead to a lot of confusion. Does this mean that "the foundations on which socionics is built are absolute bullshit?" No, actually it means that no single theory can accurately "predict" how all relations will turn out because there are so many real-world factors.

    Even as a theoretical model, socionics is still in its early stages, and I highly suspect that the model of intertype relations will have to be revised based on observational and theoretical breakthroughs.

    Anyway, as far as the original topic... the posts I've seen Elena make seem very Fe + Se, but with Se as the mobilizing function, not in the ego block. ENFj is my guess.
    delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    I'm starting to think that the foundations on which socionics is built are absolute bullshit. Every time I think of something about a relation, it always so happens that everyone can 'get on' with even their conflictors! What's the point of this theory if everyone gets along? I thought it was s'posed to show why LIIs think SEEs are dickheads, and why EIIs never live within a mile of an SLE, and why ILIs are sickened by ESEs, and why SLIs would rather stare at a piece of cheese than listen to a speech from an EIE.
    People can "get on with" their conflictors, but it's harder. Think about times where you're with a conflictor. Are you and the conflictor by design focused on something else, like a class or that group that I can't remember the name of but seems to be the UK version of ROTC? Are there others around you who help ease your communication with each other? And how long have you "gotten on with" these people? I've "gotten on with" ISTjs for periods of time sometimes before things have fallen apart. It seems to be better now that I know about Socionics and can keep myself from falling into traps, or at least can recognize when I'm doing it and stop, or at least I can recognize that it's a personality type difference and not that the ISTj has something wrong with him/her. Or at least I can recognize that the ISTj probably sees me as having something wrong with me too.

    And then you have other things to consider. Do you and your conflictor have a lot of things in common - age, interests, political/religious views, etc? Maybe you haven't had an issue come up yet where you'd see the differences in function use. And on the other hand, a dual with whom you disagree on every issue and who is very different than you as far as age and background and what-not go might not make a good friend regardless of how well your personality types compliment each other.

    Anyway, if you had to work one-on-one on a long-term project with your conflictor, you'd probably have problems. If you married your conflictor, you'd probably have problems. You might be able to make things work but it would take a great deal of effort. Socionics is more about how easy or difficult relationships are (all other things being equal) than it is about adoring everyone who is your dual and hating everyone who is your conflictor.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
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    Quote Originally Posted by XoX View Post
    This is why Kristiina keeps saying that you are not consistent enough to be LSI. ENFjs dislike that kind of suddenly voiced out "gut instincts" which pretty much conflict with everything else you have said so far.
    don't misquote me. I said this is why UDP is not SLE.

    I've had doubts about Ezra being SLE because when he first got to the forum, his presence in threads made me get defencive rather than activated. But lately I see him writing many things that are very revealing and logical and easy to understand. I can see him giving the right kind of Ti.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
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    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    Because relationships are far more than just "get on" with others.

    LOL at your Fi PoLR.
    What's this? Expat's making jokes??

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kristiina View Post
    don't misquote me. I said this is why UDP is not SLE.

    I've had doubts about Ezra being SLE because when he first got to the forum, his presence in threads made me get defencive rather than activated. But lately I see him writing many things that are very revealing and logical and easy to understand. I can see him giving the right kind of Ti.
    oops

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    so you think Ezra is E(S)TP? 'cos isn't it hard to imagine Ezra as cool-headed and polite as an ES(T)P would be.
    Se-subtype was implied there yes. Especially if Gilly in anyways represents a true Ti-ESTp. I don't know much about ISTj-Se. Perhaps could be.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    trust me, Gilly is NOT an ISTJ. ISTJs are too serious minded and are not there to bug you or win power. they just go along their usual system ensuring everything is in order, wearing their mustache (logical subtype) or being extremely energetic and active, do following a system, but just being more in an action phase rather than analytical, it's just in proportions, so thinking is still there (sensory subtype).
    Umm..I didn't say Gilly is ISTj. So I trust you

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    LOL at your Fi PoLR.
    LOL at your Si PoLR. You'll never experience the beauties of life in the same way that I do.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    so you think Ezra is E(S)TP? 'cos isn't it hard to imagine Ezra as cool-headed and polite as an ES(T)P would be.
    Then you don't know me.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    trust me, Gilly is NOT an ISTJ. ISTJs are too serious minded and are not there to bug you or win power. they just go along their usual system ensuring everything is in order, wearing their mustache (logical subtype) or being extremely energetic and active, do following a system, but just being more in an action phase rather than analytical, it's just in proportions, so thinking is still there (sensory subtype).
    I agree.

    Expat, Joy or whoever gets those subtype descriptions - have you got one for LSI-Ti and -Se?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    They're pinned in General.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Can't find them.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Can't find them.
    I moved them to Articles at Kristiina's (sensible) request. They're a sticky there.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    A Supervisor reacting well to her Supervisee's posts? Hmmm...

    It would make much more sense if Elena was snegledmaca's Mirror.
    Lol I knew someone would read too much into that and point it out as some kind of "evidence."

    Elena, I'd like to know what exactly why you don't think you're an EIE. Lay it out for me.
    The issue is too tired for me to be motivated to go into detail about now. I've made plenty of case elsewhere in the other thread.

    Alternatively, you could lay yourself out (Just kidding, don't take my pseudo-sexism to heart.)
    Barf.
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Herzy View Post
    It's totally possible for a supervisor to think that a supervisee has good points. It happens all the time between me and my LII bro, and me and my ESI mom. So I don't think that one statement on Elena's part is enough to make her a different type.
    Right.
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Also, Elena, a point. Beta Fe we've established in other threads is very different Alpha Fe. Very. And aut0's absolutely right; it does NOT equate to being loud and obnoxious. If it did, I would not be Beta, for the simple fact that I do not value loud and obnoxious behaviour.
    I don't relate to any of that about Beta Fe. Though I agree that there is a difference between Fe in Alpha and Beta and have been observing this for some time.

    Understand that Fe leading is not something to degrade. At all. fe leading A massive amount of historical figures have been EIEs. Check out the socionics.us page. See what a bunch of geeks the LIEs are. See how amazing the EIEs are (okay, nothing compared to SLEs, I'll give you that ). And read this completely unflattering description of Fe leading to see what it's REALLY like:
    I think a lot of those LIEs listed there aren't LIEs. For example Bill Gates should be listed as ILE.

    Shit, I've just thought. Perhaps you're an SLE. (This is just a gut instinct though.) After all, I came to this forum thinking I was an LIE (ENTj) or LSE (ESTj) and everyone started typing me as an EIE (ENFj) which really pissed me off. Because I knew I was not that. People were saying "talk to Kristiina", so I did. And I felt no affinity with her at all. Perhaps I shared the same values as her, but I knew I was not an EIE. It was a foreign concept to me. However, I advise you to talk to her. Just so you can cross EIE off your list of types to consider. And who knows, perhaps you'll change your mind about your type.
    Kristiina seems nice and I read some of her other posts. We aren't the same type and EIE has never been a type I considered nor will it ever be. I'm sincerely not Fe, nor am I at all Beta. What will it take to get this through peoples heads?
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Yeah, that makes sense to me. Definitely. It is pretty much the distinguishing feature for me being SLE over LSI; my ability to say shit like that and feel confident in it.
    You're an Enneagram 6 aren't you?
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    What will it take to get this through peoples heads?
    Can't say for certain. An electric drill, perhaps?

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    I've made plenty of case elsewhere in the other thread.
    Not really.

    Barf.
    Sorry, I didn't know you didn't like men.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Right, in Elena's defence, this is something Ashton said at socionix.

    To me, the way she described her primary interests and the orientation of her mind sounded spot-on / . There's a post on it in the "Can 7s be LIEs" thread and I'm surprised everyone overlooked this... wait, no I take that I'm back, I'm not at all surprised. But for fucks sake: She likes economics, predicting market trends, the hard sciences, observing causal patterns, is keenly interested in applied/pragmatic/empirical knowledge about reality and how the real world works? Is this some kind of fucking joke that you people can't see this as blatant, overwhelming / preference going on? PHAEDRUS of all people acknowledges that she is at least ENTx, his only hold-up being that she claims type 7 as her Enneagram, and I can understand why he thinks this is contadictory (it isn't).
    His last bit of the last sentence I disagree with. I agree with Phaedrus that she can't be a 7 LIE.

    But the point is, what EIE would be interested in the kind of shit Elena is? And are you REALLY so confident in yourselves that you think she may not be lying when she said "I'm not EIE, trust me", ESPECIALLY in light of the shit that occurred with me, where a load of you dickheads were screaming "EIE EIE, he's EIE! He's a manipulative little shit who wants to be hard wahwahwahwahwah!". Come on. Consider this.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  34. #34
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    You're an Enneagram 6 aren't you?
    No, an 8.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Right, in Elena's defence, this is something Ashton said at socionix.



    His last bit of the last sentence I disagree with. I agree with Phaedrus that she can't be a 7 LIE.

    But the point is, what EIE would be interested in the kind of shit Elena is? And are you REALLY so confident in yourselves that you think she may not be lying when she said "I'm not EIE, trust me", ESPECIALLY in light of the shit that occurred with me, where a load of you dickheads were screaming "EIE EIE, he's EIE! He's a manipulative little shit who wants to be hard wahwahwahwahwah!". Come on. Consider this.
    Good to know some people recognize this and are not blind. Does anyone have any more arguments for why "Elena is ENFj" or did this somehow conclude that I actually am what I say I am? Seems none of the accusers have responded to this post and I would be interested to see what they say in defense of their position now.
    ENTj ~**~ 7w6

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    Seems none of the accusers have responded to this post and I would be interested to see what they say in defense of their position now.
    Perhaps nobody cares? As in, they still think you are EIE but have better things to do?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    Good to know some people recognize this and are not blind. Does anyone have any more arguments for why "Elena is ENFj" or did this somehow conclude that I actually am what I say I am? Seems none of the accusers have responded to this post and I would be interested to see what they say in defense of their position now.
    In Ezra's case, his type was not clear. He just seemed to be a Beta extrovert. It's easy to see why some people may have suggested that he was EIE at first.

    In your case, however, there really isn't anything to suggest that you're not EIE, your own self-typing aside. But of course, we're all free to have our own opinions on each person's type, including our own.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Elena View Post
    Good to know some people recognize this and are not blind. Does anyone have any more arguments for why "Elena is ENFj" or did this somehow conclude that I actually am what I say I am?

    Seems none of the accusers have responded to this post and I would be interested to see what they say in defense of their position now.
    btw, I'm not sure I follow what you're saying here... Since some people considered EIE as a possibility for Ezra's type when he first arrived and he turned out to be a SLE instead... everyone must be wrong about your type? you're actually SLE as well? all suggestions about people's types should be discarded in favor of their own self-typing?

    The reason most people didn't respond was probably because they felt that Ashton's opinion and people's initial type suggestions for Ezra are at all relevant to your type discussion. Or, similar to what snegledmaca said, perhaps the matter is already resolved in their heads and they didn't think anything more needed to be said.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

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    Yeah, what snegledmaca said. And what Joy said in this regard.

    To me, debating an issue in a forum is a way to improve my own understanding of a subject, and/or to help someone else do the same. If I am debating an issue with someone who reciprocates, I am more than ready to change any original views. But if I notice that the discussion is going nowhere - because the other person seems to be bent on "winning" the discussion, no matter how - then I see it as a waste of my time and go "whatever". If others see it as "not having an answer" or "losing" or whatever, what do I care?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    I forgot something --

    That Elena refers to people questioning her type as "accusers" already tells me that it's probably pointless to even discuss it. So why should I?
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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