Offensive description of LIE-ENTj

[Expat]

If you had to sum LIEs up in two words, they would be insecurity -- and greed -- actually, make it just one word, since their greed derives from their insecurity. Not insecurity as to what they can accomplish on their own, or what they know: they are very secure about crap like that. Insecurity as to other people, how others see them. Far more than the LII or the ILI, the LIE is the workaholic nerd who eagerly studies and/or works hard and accumulates knowledge, and wealth, in the sad hope that that will help him get that one girl he's been admiring since kindergarten - only to have her laugh at him as she goes for the jock who kicks sand in the LIE's eyes on the beach. And why shouldn't she? While the jock will instinctively understand what the girl wants, the LIE will try to, well, do things for her, be helpful with her homework, enter into a 2-hour digression on the economic structure of the town of Dead Man's Creek, Arizona, because she happened to mention she stopped there once to get gas. Such a futile quest can never stop, which is why even multi-millionaire LIEs will then go for something else - like politics, or establish some foundation, or whatever. But they will never be able to get as much contentment and relaxation as the SLI when he's working on his garden. The LIE will die without having ever lived. Whenever you meet a LIE, no matter what his status in life, remember this: he has never arrived.

[hellothere]

[Expat]

It is very mean, but maybe gender-biased. I'm trying to think of a female version for the bit about that person you've admired forever.

That's easy -- pointlessly hoping that some day, some guy will approach her doing something else other than bragging about how good he's in sports, how attractive he is to girls generally, and how much beer he can drink.

[Expat]

Okay, then: finding such a guy who's still available.

[Expat]

"no-one" likes smart/nerdy girls.

Ah yeah. And those who do, are already taken by less smart girls.

[Joy]

If you had to sum LIEs up in two words, they would be insecurity -- and greed -- actually, make it just one word, since their greed derives from their insecurity. Not insecurity as to what they can accomplish on their own, or what they know: they are very secure about crap like that. Insecurity as to other people, how others see them. Far more than the LII or the ILI, the LIE is the workaholic nerd who eagerly studies and/or works hard and accumulates knowledge, and wealth, in the sad hope that that will help him get that one girl he's been admiring since kindergarten - only to have her laugh at him as she goes for the jock who kicks sand in the LIE's eyes on the beach.

I must disagree with this.

(btw, if this is how others see LIE's it's no wonder there are people who insist that LIE's are enneagram 6's)

[Joy]

"All the nice guys are married or gay"?

But there is an issue of rejection in your description as well, and I guess even if the specifics are gender-biased it still works -- "no-one" likes smart/nerdy girls.

Ah yeah. And those who do, are already taken by less smart girls.

And they're probably prettier, too.

wtf's going on here? Please tell me this entire exchange was sarcastic. And that this whole thread is just a parody of machintruc's extremely inaccurate "offensive descriptions" and you two don't actually think that this is genuinely "the bad side" of LIE's.

[FDG]

Yes it's a parody Joy.

[Minde]

If you had to sum LIEs up in two words, they would be insecurity -- and greed -- actually, make it just one word, since their greed derives from their insecurity. Not insecurity as to what they can accomplish on their own, or what they know: they are very secure about crap like that. Insecurity as to other people, how others see them. Far more than the LII or the ILI, the LIE is the workaholic nerd who eagerly studies and/or works hard and accumulates knowledge, and wealth, in the sad hope that that will help him get that one girl he's been admiring since kindergarten - only to have her laugh at him as she goes for the jock who kicks sand in the LIE's eyes on the beach. And why shouldn't she? While the jock will instinctively understand what the girl wants, the LIE will try to, well, do things for her, be helpful with her homework, enter into a 2-hour digression on the economic structure of the town of Dead Man's Creek, Arizona, because she happened to mention she stopped there once to get gas. Such a futile quest can never stop, which is why even multi-millionaire LIEs will then go for something else - like politics, or establish some foundation, or whatever. But they will never be able to get as much contentment and relaxation as the SLI when he's working on his garden. The LIE will die without having ever lived. Whenever you meet a LIE, no matter what his status in life, remember this: he has never arrived.

How is this supposed to be offensive?

[Joy]

This thread is making want to try to impersonate a Se type.

Yes it's a parody Joy.

What I meant to ask was if it was purposely inaccurate.

It's obviously not a "bad side", just a pathetic side.

LIEs are obviously not as pathetic as the description indicates -- as it is a deliberately offensive one, and exaggerated for effect -- but there is some truth to it.

There's some truth the second part, but the stuff I quoted earlier... That sounds like the perspective of someone who does not understand LIE's at all. Except the part about liking the same person for years and not doing anything about it, including moving on if that is all that can be done. There may be LIE's who do that, but it is not a type trait, even from an exaggerated, deliberately offensive perspective.

Also, LIE insecurity is not the result of caring what others think of him/her. It's the result of worrying about not being able to take care of him/herself and him/her family.

Also, yes -- the exchange was not totally serious.

Better not be! One of my favorite quotes is "it's not what you wear, it's how you wear it". For an intelligent person of either gender, the challenge should not be finding someone who is interested in them and appreciates (or doesn't mind?) their intelligence. It should be finding someone who is intelligent enough for them. If you genuinely think of yourself as being highly desirable, others will be drawn to you.

Life is in many ways like watching television. You can only see what you're tuned in to. Those who expect to see disappointment and negative circumstances are tuning into disappointment and negative circumstances, so disappointment and negative circumstances are all that they're going to see. They'll tell you that life is nothing but disappointment and negative circumstances, and for them it is. What they fail to recognize is that there are people who expect to see opportunities and positive circumstances, and as a result, that is what they experience.

My point is that if you experience situations like the ones described in this thread, it is because that is what you are intending to experience, whether you enjoy it or not.

[Expat]

How is this supposed to be offensive?

maybe it describes a LSE then.

[Joy]

How is this supposed to be offensive?

It sounds like a Fe, Fi, Si, and Se hit. Fe because it says that LIE's care how others see them. Fi because the LIE is alone. Si because the LIE can't rest (I didn't find that part offensive, that's just the reality of things). Se because the LIE in the description needs to develop some confidence like a starving person needs food.

[Minde]

maybe it describes a LSE then.

So Ashton was right after all!

Seriously speaking, though, from Joy's response maybe it's a better description of Te-LIE than of Ni-LIE.

EDIT: I love how you all answered me seriously (except for Expat). Thank you.

[Expat]

There's some truth the second part, but the stuff I quoted earlier... That sounds like the perspective of someone who does not understand LIE's at all. Except the part about liking the same person for years and not doing anything about it, including moving on if that is all that can be done. There may be LIE's who do that, but it is not a type trait, even from an exaggerated, deliberately offensive perspective.

It's an extreme exaggeration of Victim + dual-seeking. How many people actually do that? Besides, he was "doing" something -- he was droning on about Dead Man's Creek, Arizona.

Also, LIE insecurity is not the result of caring what others think of him/her. It's the result of worrying about not being able to take care of him/herself and him/her family.

Joy, you're making it too complicated.

Super-id: your insecure bit, where you need help from others
Fi dual-seeking: connected not to any "others", but to specific persons
Se HA: to want to accumulate wealth, etc, so "greed".

[Minde]

Se HA: to want to accumulate wealth, etc, so "greed".

So an ISFj's supposed to make you wealthy?

[Expat]

So an ISFj's supposed to make you wealthy?

To help you get there.

[Joy]

maybe it describes a LSE then.

I think she responded by not understanding how it's offensive because it mainly describes weak Se, and someone with a Se PoLR wouldn't think that there's anything wrong with not having strong Se. (If it had described weak Ni, she may have been offended or felt defensive due to the insult to her dual.)

It's an extreme exaggeration of Victim + dual-seeking.

I don't think being a victim is generally like that for extroverts though. Being a victim doesn't mean you just sit around and wait (though to some it may appear that way, I suppose, but that seems like it may be more applicable to ILI's). It means you're a prize to be won. It means you make relationships happen through strategies designed to spur the Se type into action. The Se type needs to know how to read the Ni type's cues as to when (s)he should wait and when (s)he should act.

I can accept that from an outside perspective, Ni/Se interactions as such wouldn't make sense. For the description though, I think LIE's are generally too impatient and Fi-needy to stay in a position like that for long. I guess my complaint is with the "since kindergarten" bit.

I have a hard time connecting Fi and Se in the manner you described, but (you're not going to believe I'm saying this lol) perhaps it's because of the difference in gender. As a female, I'm not at all concerned with winning a mate or finding a good partner (most of the time), and I most certainly do not seek wealth for that purpose. However, one of my primary concerns is with caring for my offspring, making sure the needs/desires/comforts of my offspring are more than met, and making sure that I have the time, energy, and means to have an excellent relationship with my offspring.

How many people actually do that?

I don't know.

Besides, he was "doing" something -- he was droning on about Dead Man's Creek, Arizona.

An LIE should be a better judge of whether or not something is effective than that.

(What I mean to say is that when I say "doing something" I generally mean "accomplishing something".)

Joy, you're making it too complicated.

I hear this a lot.

Super-id: your insecure bit, where you need help from others
Fi dual-seeking: connected not to any "others", but to specific persons
Se HA: to want to accumulate wealth, etc, so "greed".

Hmmm I actually tend to see this as over complicating things... I can see how the description is a theoretical blend of these things, but I don't necessarily agree that this is how it actually works.

I don't think there's anything about Fe, Fi, Si, or Se in LIE's that would make them care about how others see them. Even when it's a specific person, it's not about image, it's about their relationship. Concerning oneself with image would be an extremely ineffective way to impress an ESI. The only thing I could think of would be a possible manifestation of a Fe role combined with a Se hidden agenda, but that seems like a stretch to me.

I think the primary manifestation of a Fe role is feeling obligated to cater to other people's feelings and not enough on your own desires/values. ExTj's can be too kind and get taken advantage of. They're not good at drawing boundaries.

So an ISFj's supposed to make you wealthy?

A Se hidden agenda is about wanting to have more than you and your family could ever possibly need because then you won't have to worry about not being able to take care of them.

ESI's don't make you wealthy, they just make it possible to do so together because they provide the Si, Se, and Tactics necessary to get where you're going. They appreciate this because they feel lost without knowing that whatever they're putting their Se and Tactics into is going to pay off in the long run. (LIE's can get too focused on long term success and live with too little in hopes of accomplishing it sooner, but this can backfire because they can't work effectively if their Si needs aren't being met. It's the ESI's job to make sure that doesn't happen because an ESI won't stand for a lifestyle that's so uncomfortable/lacking that it's unhealthy or demoralizing. That's the Si aspect. The Se aspect is that they are excellent at "budgeting" energy usage and in doing so tell the LIE to settle down when (s)he's doing too much and to get moving when (s)he's doing too little.)

[Expat]

If it had described weak Ni, she may have been offended or felt defensive due to the insult to her dual.

I know what I have to do now.

[Joy]

Oh?

[Ezra]

Expat, perhaps the jock could be an SEE, with his charming Fi. Or maybe the SLE, who once bullied the poor little guy, and then, with poor Ni, comes running to him for job when he's 40, only to be turned down.

To look at it optimistically, okay, the LIE has a teenagehood of hell, but once he's up there, 'you little airhead sports excellence kids will be working for me now, heh heh heh heh'.

It pays to be the one who gets the best of both worlds i.e. me. I was neither bullied, nor will I be working for anyone.

"All the nice guys are married or gay"?

Thank YOU, I will take credit for that quote.

"no-one" likes smart [...] girls.

That's a lie.

[Ezra]

(btw, if this is how others see LIE's it's no wonder there are people who insist that LIE's are enneagram 6's)

Very good point, Joy.

Maybe Expat is right though. Maybe, for once, you are wrong. Maybe I am also right - LIEs are 6s.

THANK YOU.

[Ezra]

wtf's going on here? Please tell me this entire exchange was sarcastic. And that this whole thread is just a parody of machintruc's extremely inaccurate "offensive descriptions" and you two don't actually think that this is genuinely "the bad side" of LIE's.

What's the matter Joy; afraid to admit you're a nerd?

This thread is making want to try to impersonate a Se type.

I dunno Joy, maybe you are one.

Also, LIE insecurity is not the result of caring what others think of him/her. It's the result of worrying about not being able to take care of him/herself and him/her family.

Now you're just trying to shift the tables in your favour.

Seriously speaking, though, from Joy's response maybe it's a better description of Te-LIE than of Ni-LIE.

Or Joy isn't an LIE. After all, Salawa was fine with it, and she's a LIE-Ni.

[Joy]

Yes, I'm a "nerd", and yes I see it as one of my more desirable qualities. Of course, most guys wouldn't think so, but doesn't matter because there will be guys that do. (I can't be compatible with everyone, after all.)

To look at it optimistically, okay, the LIE has a teenagehood of hell, but once he's up there, 'you little airhead sports excellence kids will be working for me now, heh heh heh heh'.

When I was having trouble with a LSE manager I was said "She can write me up if she wants to. It won't matter when she's writing her rent check out to me." (I'm guessing someone told her I said that, too, because she went from being sort of irritated with me to hating me not long after that.)

[Ezra]

Yes, I'm a "nerd", and yes I see it as one of my more desirable qualities. Of course, most guys wouldn't think so, but doesn't matter because there will be guys that do. (I can't be compatible with everyone, after all.)

Joy, I've never met a guy or girl who finds 'nerdy' attractive. However, I know for a fact that there are many guys out there (me included) that find intelligence in a women extremely attractive.

So, LIE females, for future reference, if you want to woo a male, show him how intelligent you are by not trying to look intelligent, because then you will look like a nerd. You are intelligent, so what's the need to try anything.

[Joy]

I find nerdiness (and geekiness) attractive as well. And personally I don't think that trying to look intelligent is what makes someone a nerd. Trying to look intelligent could make someone look insecure, but true nerdiness/geekiness is something else, at least by my definition.

[Expat]

Maybe Expat is right though. Maybe, for once, you are wrong. Maybe I am also right - LIEs are 6s.

Yes, I am indeed right. I am right in saying that Fi PoLR types are inclined to see Fi dual-seeking as 6. I said that since Gilly and I met in Berlin and he came with the 6 idea, and I have told you this before, Ezra.

[marooned]

I find your offensive descriptions more sad than offensive (perhaps it's the same in a way).

The EIE one was sad because it's a person without a self, or sense of themselves...

The LIE one was sad because it's a person who dies without ever having "lived" because they miss the moments.

Maybe they're more like deep central worries inside of types... I can imagine that the fear of dying without having lived might go quite well with Ni in the ego block (unvalued and neglected Si), but I could see it being the most central to TeNi. The worry of never knowing who you are, trying to find it, when it seems you only play parts might resonate with both Beta NFs (though is likely more central to EIE).

I suppose that's why they're "offensive," as they point out deep fears that might go with types, things that hit you rather hard then, as you fear it is true.

Or something.

[hellothere]

I find your offensive descriptions more sad than offensive (perhaps it's the same in a way).

The EIE one was sad because it's a person without a self, or sense of themselves...

The LIE one was sad because it's a person who dies without ever having "lived" because they miss the moments.

Maybe they're more like deep central worries inside of types... I can imagine that the fear of dying without having lived might go quite well with Ni in the ego block (unvalued and neglected Si), but I could see it being the most central to TeNi. The worry of never knowing who you are, trying to find it, when it seems you only play parts might resonate with both Beta NFs (though is likely more central to EIE).

I suppose that's why they're "offensive," as they point out deep fears that might go with types, things that hit you rather hard then, as you fear it is true.

Or something.

I agree, are they meant to be offensive because they make people of that type feel pathetic? They make me feel sorry for people of that type rather than say, laugh at them

[Megan]

Joy, I've never met a guy or girl who finds 'nerdy' attractive. However, I know for a fact that there are many guys out there (me included) that find intelligence in a women extremely attractive.

So, LIE females, for future reference, if you want to woo a male, show him how intelligent you are by not trying to look intelligent, because then you will look like a nerd. You are intelligent, so what's the need to try anything.

This assumes that all ENTj females are intelligent (or more likely to be intelligent than other types) and I really doubt that is true, to put it mildly. Honestly, why would it be?

[snegledmaca]

Ha, strangely I can somewhat identify with the opening post. The part about trying to get things through working harder. However there is some good in it, nobody can take away what you've learned, the skills you gained, even if you did not accomplish what you wanted to. So to be honest I don't really see it as that offensive. More like a description of a person in an unhealthy state of mind.