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Thread: Why I am LSE

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    Expat's Avatar
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    Default Why I am LSE

    At least according to Ashton:

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...alk:Dynamicism

    I have no inclination to debate this in detail with him, mainly because it's personal -- I don't like him, and I think it's pointless discussing socionics with him. But, perhaps someone will find it interesting (or see it as a better version of socionics than the one I and others represent, no idea).
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  2. #2
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Oh so Ashton is Dynamacism. I wanted to know who was spewing out all these controversial mistypings.

    Something tells me Fabio and Salawa might have been inspired by his confidence that LIEs can be 7s. Fabio is certain he is a 7, so I don't understand how he can be an LIE.

    Salawa, I don't understand how you can think 5's can't be LIEs but 7s can. I'm willing to concede that 5s can't be LIEs if you can do the same with 7s. Only 1s, 3s 6s and 8w9s can be LIEs. Imagine a 2 with Te dominance? Doesn't happen. 4? No. 5 and 7 we've discussed. 9? I don't think so. (Because the 8w9 is less self-starting (which is clearly related to Se; anyone wishes to take me up on that, please do so) than the 8w7, I'm willing to admit that they could be LIEs.)

    Anyway, on you as LSE, Expat, no, I don't see it. I don't understand at all how he came to that conclusion, except through superficial points like "you do not lack the concision that the LIE does".
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Oh so Ashton is Dynamacism. I wanted to know who was spewing out all these controversial mistypings.
    That's what happens when you have an inaccurate point of reference (he thinks he's LIE).

    Something tells me Fabio and Salawa might have been inspired by his confidence that LIEs can be 7s.
    Except that 1.) Salawa doesn't respect Ashton's knowledge/understanding of Socionics, and 2.) Salawa doesn't think FDG is LIE.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Something tells me Fabio and Salawa might have been inspired by his confidence that LIEs can be 7s.
    Wait wait wait let's clear this misconception from the start. I got to know Ashton on the Enneagram board at first and we had already both typed ourselves as ENTj 7w8, so there was no outside pressure. None at all.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Except that 1.) Salawa doesn't respect Ashton's knowledge/understanding of Socionics, and 2.) Salawa doesn't think FDG is LIE.
    Let's just clear this misconception from the start: me and Ashton arrived at ENTj, 7w8 typings of ourselves in a completely indipendent fashion, and we became friends because of the similarity - NOT the opposite!!

    Ashton IMHO understands socionics very well if you speak with him extensively. Some of his most controversial typings are due to the fact that he can get biased by emotion.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Ashton IMHO understands socionics very well if you speak with him extensively.
    This is like saying Charlie Manson's ideas about society make more sense the longer he's in prison.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Hot Message FDG's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    This is like saying Charlie Manson's ideas about society make more sense the longer he's in prison.
    Gah, you're so hostile.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Gah, you're so hostile.
    Gah, you're so...well, let's not go there.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Gah, you're so...well, let's not go there.
    Hot? Smart? Fantastic? Awesome? Brillant?
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Hot? Smart? Fantastic? Awesome? Brillant?
    How does "irresistably homoerotic" sound?
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Ashton IMHO understands socionics very well if you speak with him extensively. Some of his most controversial typings are due to the fact that he can get biased by emotion.
    I really wasn't being facetious, or sarcastic, or devious, when I posted that link. I think that Ashton's "most controversial typings", like saying that I am LSE, he's LIE, Joy is - well - ESE, Diana is EII, etc, are sheer nonsense, but, what the hell, there isn't really a way to prove anything in this stuff, so rather than discuss it deeply with him, which I don't enjoy for personal reasons and see as a waste of time, I thought, well, maybe some people might think he has a point, fair enough. Let them make up their own minds. That was all.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    At least according to Ashton:

    http://wikisocion.org/en/index.php?t...alk:Dynamicism

    I have no inclination to debate this in detail with him, mainly because it's personal -- I don't like him, and I think it's pointless discussing socionics with him. But, perhaps someone will find it interesting (or see it as a better version of socionics than the one I and others represent, no idea).
    Come on Expat, ENTjs don't like relaxing with a cigar once a year. If that's not enough for you, here's a wall of text that makes no sense:

    fdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngka jfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdf jgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdg jshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfg hbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgn ajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjsh agjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbk jadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajd fbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagj bd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjad nfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbg kjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd, kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfg kjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkja dflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kaf jghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjd hbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadfl gkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjgh lkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhba kfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkn dakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkj efnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfm gnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndak fvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefn bvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnl kdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvj noerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvk jdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkda jrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoe rjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdn bakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrh gkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjn lgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbak gjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkm adfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgk jadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjd kfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadf bgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjad skfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfj gndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgk jadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskf vnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgnd akjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjad flgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnl kfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakj fngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflg kakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfn gjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfng kajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkak dfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjf dgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkaj fghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfj gnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgj shagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfgh bkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgna jdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjsha gjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkj adnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdf bgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjb d,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadn fgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgk jadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,k afjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgk jdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjad flgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafj ghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdh bakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflg kndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghl kjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbak fmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgknd akfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkje fnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmg nlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakf vjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnb vkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlk dajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjn 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ngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgk akdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfng jfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngk ajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakd fjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfd gjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajf ghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjg najdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjs hagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghb kjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnaj dfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshag jbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkja dnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfb gkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd ,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnf gkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkj adflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,ka fjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkj dhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadf lgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjg hlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhb akfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgk ndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlk jefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakf mgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgknda kfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjef nbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgn lkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfv jnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbv kjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkd ajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjno erjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjd nbakgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajr hgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerj nlgkjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnba kgjdkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgk madfbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlg kjadskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgj dkfjgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmad fbgkjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkja dskfvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkf jgndakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbg kjadflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadsk fvnlkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgn dakjfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkja dflgkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvn lkfngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndak jfngkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadfl gkakdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkf ngjfdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfn gkajfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgka kdfjgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngj fdgjshagjbd,kafjghlkjefnbvkjdnbakgjdkfjgndakjfngka jfghbkjadnfgkjdhbakfmgnlkdajrhgkmadfbgkjadflgkakdf jgnajdfbgkjadflgkndakfvjnoerjnlgkjadskfvnlkfngj

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Let's just clear this misconception from the start: me and Ashton arrived at ENTj, 7w8 typings of ourselves in a completely indipendent fashion
    Independent of this community?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  14. #14
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    That's not an actual discussion, it's an embarrassing exchange of insults (if it is what was in the wiki - I don't read socionix).
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    That's not an actual discussion, it's an embarrassing exchange of insults (if it is what was in the wiki - I don't read socionix).
    Good, if it's on the wiki, read it there people.

    Expat, how much of his reasoning can you sympathise with, and how much do you see is utter crap?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Expat, how much of his reasoning can you sympathise with, and how much do you see is utter crap?
    *sigh* if I must --

    Look, what he essentially did was start from a given conclusion - I am LSE - and then look for arguments to support that conclusion. Before we got into insulting each others - started also because of my personal dislike - it boiled down to this:

    1)not enough comfort with Se
    2)no use of Ni semantics when I write according to Rick's article
    3) I "use Si more than Ni", since ages ago I mentioned that I was enjoying a cigar and wine, and that seems to have "struck him as so unlike LIE".
    4)I get along so well with a lot of "Deltas".

    I did address those "arguments", all of which (with the exception, maybe, 1) are self-evidently lame, but I could see there was no point in discussing it further, for obvious reasons.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Independent of this community?
    Yes, yes and yes.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Okay. Copy and paste time.

    "What I mean is that it certainly isn't going to be something they actively prefer and seek out. No, they're not oblivious to it and they're not going to be immensely put off by it. But this tolerance will only last up to a certain point, as their patience for it is going to be rather limited. If an LSE had to live around an SEE or ESI, the persistent Se.gif exposure will burn them out at some point. This is not unreasonable to conceive. Or if an LIE was around constant Ne.gif, it would predictably reach a point where the continued presence of it became stressful. Or how about an ILE and Te.gif? Etc. I don't think anyone can reasonably pretend that being around their 8th function all the time would not eventually get antagonizing for them. If you'd like, I can rephrase "lacking comfort" to "lacking extended comfort." In the case of LIE and Se.gif, comfort will not be an issue and that sort of exposure ought to be beneficial and psychologically harmonizing for them, exactly as Duality and other intertype relations predict. It brings a necessary element into their life that has an activating influence on them, that they do not shy away from or get discomforted by it after a certain point - else how would they live around their dual at all?

    All I said was that it was more unlikely that an LIE would lack concision in the way Salawa qualitatively described of you. Sorry, but I really don't think rambling extemporaneously at great length reciting mostly mere factual data is exactly an LIE characteristic, and IME they'd regard that as something very dry and even superfluous - which really shouldn't come as a surprise for an Ni.gif ego type. It's more typical that an LIE likes to get to the point quickly about something and convey what's necessary in as few words as possible until they believe the person has understood (which is why I make these posts painfully long unfortunately). Then move on to something else. Sure, hard facts can be important to an LIE, but not something they're going to be thrilled to talk ad nauseum about, nor is outlining a bunch of formal details going to be a labor of love for them. Yet from the sounds of it you are rather enthusiastic about this? So yes I think that is more favorable to you being LSE, not LIE.

    Indeed, for the LIE being an Ni.gif ego type, it should be expected that they will communicate more in terms of generalities, gists, concepts, ideas, hypotheticals, observable or inferable trends, and dynamic descriptions of abstract processes (this being the cornerstone of Ni.gif IMO). That is the mindset of an LIE and I can't see you like this. You tend to be geared more towards providing what is concrete information that is superficially ostensive, occasionally interspersed with recitations from sources that you deem "official." Not that an LIE would completely ignore this sort of information, but rather they will regard it with a much more tentative outlook and possess an imaginatively richer field of perception than you often seem to - and no this is not Ti.gif. The tone of your assertions is often absolutist and very dilute in any abstract content that would denote an Ni.gif preference. You strike me as seeming to rigidly cling to more one-dimensional, overly-broad, crudely implemented notions of Socionics phenomenon that are very distorting. Which I think is caused by an inherent incapacity you have to perceive these processes for yourself, processes an LIE would perceive with natural effortlessness. When challenged with anything that contradicts your POV you typically dismiss the interlocutor offhand with curt and pretentious ad hoc comments like "oh that's really just Ti.gif," or "oh that's really just Beta Fe.gif." This is like what your Lookalike Joy does too btw. All of which is absolutely not like an LIE and more akin to an LSE who's desperately trying to cover for his Ni vulnerable because he has little to no ability to understand these processes for himself, or explain them independently on his own in any thorough, fluid operational sense. Indeed, all of your Socionics explanations are merely facile loosely arranged discontinuous ensembles of suppositions, a characteristic about you that speaks volumes to the presence of your Ne.gif mobilizing function. Any insights you yield about Socionics or someone's type, are rendered from you making a few cursory connections between a few or more very broadly defined, grossly oversimplified attributions you've drawn up about various Socionics aspects. Again, that is Ne.gif mobilizing at work. It seems that you are either incapable or unwilling to explain these things in a fashion that would depict the causal phenomenal process underpinning and actuating them. Which is what an Ni.gif ego type does do. No, I am not redefining Ni.gif here, anybody can go read this all over the place in the Socionics literature if they want. I know I get accused of claiming Ni.gif as some kind of gnostic voodoo seer function, but that's tripe. Anything I've seriously attributed to Ni.gif has been described elsewhere in detail, including Jung and including that page I linked earlier straight from Rick's site. Which BTW you didn't make a response about earlier, Expat, wasn't sure if you missed it or didn't have anything to say.

    Yes, Deltas like Kim (IEE) and Minde (EII). Possibly mcnew (EII) but I have no idea what your interaction with him is like. Also Diana who I think is EII though I know she convinced herself at some point that she is ESI instead (btw if we're going to debate other people's types, I think it's appropriate they have their own section and we not do so under yours). There may be others, I haven't been around there in awhile obviously, that's just some I remember off the top of my head. Yes, Gammas can have positive interactions with Deltas. I certainly do with some, and have had positive interactions with Kim and other IEEs in past years in a way that's described well by the Benefactor intertype relation. Here, I'll even be personally honest and share that I find the Fi.gif of some Delta NFs that I've interacted with on the more individual basis, to have a very calming/naturalizing yet energizing effect for me... and I know that I've always craved Fi.gif all my life as odd as that might sound since I'm construed as an archetypal ESTp lol. At a distance we frequently perplex one another, but interaction on a personal level quickly disarms any of that and we find we had more in common than we initially may have thought. Despite the strong fundamental commonalities however, the range of the interaction between myself and Delta NFs I know or have known does become bottlenecked. No, it usually doesn't become adverse or conflicting in any sense, it's just that there seems to be areas of experience we cannot mutually share in. I enjoy their Fi.gif, they enjoy my Te.gif, but it becomes evident that there are sharp divergences in how we view the world and what we're motivated by. And it often seems with Deltas that the structure of our communication is the same, yet much of the content of that communication is different. I mean gee, even you and I communicate in a similar form Expat - look at the cadence of our writing style. Notice a similarity yet?"
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Part 2.

    "
    I would say that Deltas are much more concretely grounded and practical-oriented than I am - not that I'm the exact opposite, but there is a large difference in the degree of emphasis we place on these matters. And I think it's sensible to pinpoint the source of this divide to Ne.gif Si.gif vs. Se.gif Ni.gif differences in values. I illustrate all of this because I think it exemplifies the nature of the Gamma/Delta contrast. Now, if you really want to make a case based on what I just said that all of this means I'm really Beta or something else, then by all means go ahead...

    All in all, your relations with them seem much more natural and I think you would be much more conducive fit into Delta than I would be. I know you're older, but you have more of the practicality and more of the seriousness about you that is of a Delta style IMO, not of Gamma. Also, hasn't there been than a few people who's commented on seeing you as a kind of paternal figure or some such? That's supposedly a Delta quality lol. Anyway, these considerations aside... if you don't think your relations with other Deltas mean anything - then let's look at the opposite end of the intertype relations matrix. How is it do you explain the exceedingly antagonistic dynamics you have had between many Betas? Something far in excess and severity than would be anticipated for if you are a Gamma. Is it just Fe.gif? If so, why doesn't Alpha Fe.gif bother you just as much? This makes no sense IMO if you are not of Delta.

    How often have you mentioned Si.gif-related stuff? I don't know, I haven't seen much of your posts in awhile. I only remembered that one instance from far back and I think it was in the chat room. I recall that I found it intriguingly peculiar for an LIE to speak in the manner you did about something like that. No, one instance does not confirm anything and I would never declare that it does. I only tentatively regard it as something ''suggestive'' of a possible trend that may or may not exist. It affirms or refutes absolutely nothing in my mind except highlighting it as a possibility worth exploring. I did rememberjust now though that a few times when you spoke of past experiences, there seemed to be an inordinate amount of emphasis on dry concrete details. But I think that the Internet doesn't exactly avail itself as a medium where compelling demonstrative evidence can come through that a person has Si.gif. Perhaps if they spoke in detail about some kind of experience that would indicate an Si.gif preference or not, that could potentially shed some light. Beyond that, I don't know.

    Nobody "must" do any such thing, don't try to impose conditions on the debate of the issue like that. In this particular case, It's wholly arbitrary and counter-sensical to make the restriction that cons to LIE cannot be considered. Why? Because it eliminates a critically necessary aspect of the whole picture here. That is, when the issue of discussion here is revolving around a difference between LSE and LIE, then the cons against LIE become extremely important and valid points to consider. Because the two types can be superficially similar in many ways. Both are Dynamic, both are Exxj, both are Te.gif dominant and Fi.gif suggestive. Hence in order to see the contrast between the two types more clearly, pointing out any differences will be crucial. Furthermore, since these are the only two possible types you could be, any negations of you being LIE automatically speak in favor of LSE.

    Actually no, it shouldn't pose any tremendous difficulty to type people through their interactions with one other. Socionics describes the 16 intertype relations well enough. Plus they can be and are confirmed experientially with enough consensus that I think it can be agreed that they are not bullshit. Barring any major confounding individual differences in the subjects, it's perfectly plausible that an astute observer with a good understanding of Socionics could watch how any two people interact, over a sufficient period time, and say with respectable certainty something like, "Ah, these two people definitely look like they have a Supervisory relation going on!" All without the knowing the actual types of either individuals.

    I agree, the 3 relation patterns you mentioned would show the most clear difference in this case, as they would be the most polarizing. It could be interesting to facilitate some sort of type test procedure using persons from 3 to 6 of these types, and have them say what sort of interaction they have or think they have with a person who's type in is doubt. And it may be especially useful for borderline situations such as this one. For instance, if someone didn't know whether they were LIE or LSE. Then it shouldn't be difficult to hypothetically take say an IEI, an ILI, and LII. Then determine respectively whether there is a relation of Supervision or Conflicting, Mirror or Supervision, and Conflicting or Illusionary going on between that type and the "LXE."

    I do think you have Conflicting relations with many IEIs (no I'm not just talking about krae). I don't know of any ILIs on the 16types forum. As far as I know any of the "ILIs" on there, such as Phaedrus and niffweed for example, are so rabidly LII that it's ridiculous. Though it is true that Phaedrus is autistic (by his own admission) and that this is a potential confound in accurate assessment. Either way, the point I'm getting it, is that I would suggest that your interactions with your "Mirrors" are actually Illusionary (or is it Mirage now?) relations. Aka, you're LSE and they're LII. Think about it."
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    I really wasn't being facetious, or sarcastic, or devious, when I posted that link. I think that Ashton's "most controversial typings", like saying that I am LSE, he's LIE, Joy is - well - ESE, Diana is EII, etc, are sheer nonsense, but, what the hell, there isn't really a way to prove anything in this stuff, so rather than discuss it deeply with him, which I don't enjoy for personal reasons and see as a waste of time, I thought, well, maybe some people might think he has a point, fair enough. Let them make up their own minds. That was all.
    I don't agree with all his typings of course
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    He gets along with Joy. Nuff said. Any Gamma NT or Beta NF *hates* that woman with an incendiary passion.
    Yes, that's really an end-all kind of argument to type a person. "Nuff said" indeed, but about something else.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Yes, yes and yes.
    Independent of MBTT?
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    He gets along with Joy. Nuff said. Any Gamma NT or Beta NF *hates* that woman with an incendiary passion.
    Still? LOL
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

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    He gets along with Joy. Nuff said. Any Gamma NT or Beta NF *hates* that woman with an incendiary passion.
    Who said this?

    Also, how could a Gamma NT to hate Joy with a passion if she's an LIE? Surely she would have to be extremely averse to Se/Ni for both Beta NFs and Gamma NTs to hate her?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Well, for those who might not know why it's funny --

    Ashton lists me as a Fe-INFp on his userlist on the wiki, and it would be a bit more than a stretch to say that I hate Joy with an incendiary passion. If Expat is excluded from being LIE by that criteria I'm not sure why I'm not listed as SEI or something.

    Just a bit of -- internal inconsistency.
    Maybe you're not an LIE after all...

    I don't hate Joy. I really don't see why so many people dislike her.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Maybe you're not an LIE after all...

    I don't hate Joy. I really don't see why so many people dislike her.
    She used to be a whole hell of a lot more pretentious.
    But, for a certainty, back then,
    We loved so many, yet hated so much,
    We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...

    Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
    Whilst our laughter echoed,
    Under cerulean skies...

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Ashton said it. Ashton has typed Joy as ESE. (See his userpage, and the consensus list).
    That must mean that discojoe is an LII, a.k.a. he gets defensive when he feels a threat from me.

    Yes, everything has worked out perfectly. Ashton da man.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    She used to be a whole hell of a lot more pretentious.
    I started a topic about Joy Aversion. This was the first option on the poll. How... in'eresding.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    Ashton lists me as a Fe-INFp on his userlist on the wiki, and it would be a bit more than a stretch to say that I hate Joy with an incendiary passion.
    Still?

    Quote Originally Posted by Salawa View Post
    If Expat is excluded from being LIE by that criteria I'm not sure why I'm not listed as SEI or something.
    And okay, fine, so I am LSE. Salawa is IEI. Yet we are good friends. So I am LSE because I get along with "Deltas" and because "Beta NFs" don't like me - yet that's not a problem at all to say that Salawa is IEI? The whole thing is so contradictory, so insane, it's not worth bothering with.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    And okay, fine, so I am LSE. Salawa is IEI. Yet we are good friends. So I am LSE because I get along with "Deltas" and because "Beta NFs" don't like me - yet that's not a problem at all to say that Salawa is IEI? The whole thing is so contradictory, so insane, it's not worth bothering with.
    Couldn't the same be said for ezra being SLE and his claims of good relations with minde, slacker mom and who else? Couldn't that be said to be insane as well?

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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Couldn't the same be said for ezra being SLE and his claims of good relations with minde, slacker mom and who else? Couldn't that be said to be insane as well?
    I'm addressing the internal consistency of Ashton's typings - he's the one using this kind of arguments. So, ask him.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by snegledmaca View Post
    Couldn't the same be said for ezra being SLE and his claims of good relations with minde, slacker mom and who else? Couldn't that be said to be insane as well?
    Bullshit. You know nothing of my relations with these people.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Bullshit. You know nothing of my relations with these people.
    So I am wrong? I distinctly remember you commenting the thing I posted.

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    Oh please, leave me out of this conversation (here or elsewhere). My relationship with Ashton is not illustrative of anything.

    And only I know his real type, so bribe me and I will tell you.
    “Let us forget with generosity those who cannot love us”
    ― Pablo Neruda

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    And only I know his real type, so bribe me and I will tell you.
    ''The worship of money is the lowest of all human emotions, but it is shared not only by the bourgeoisie but also by the great majority of us…Little people, humble people, even those who are practically penniless. And I, with all my indignation, all my passion for destruction, I, too, am not free of it. I who am oppressed by wealth, who realise it to be the source of all misery, all my vices and hatred, all the bitterest humiliations that I have to suffer, all my impossible dreams and all the endless torment of my existence, still, all the time, as soon as I find myself in the presence of a rich person, I cannot help looking up to him, as some exceptional and splendid being, a kind of marvelous divinity, and in spite of myself, stronger than either my will of my reason, I feel rising from the very depths of my being, a sort of incense of admiration for this wealthy creature, who is all too often as stupid as he is pitiless. Isn’t it crazy? And why... why?''

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Subterranean View Post
    ''The worship of money is the lowest of all human emotions, but it is shared not only by the bourgeoisie but also by the great majority of us…Little people, humble people, even those who are practically penniless. And I, with all my indignation, all my passion for destruction, I, too, am not free of it. I who am oppressed by wealth, who realise it to be the source of all misery, all my vices and hatred, all the bitterest humiliations that I have to suffer, all my impossible dreams and all the endless torment of my existence, still, all the time, as soon as I find myself in the presence of a rich person, I cannot help looking up to him, as some exceptional and splendid being, a kind of marvelous divinity, and in spite of myself, stronger than either my will of my reason, I feel rising from the very depths of my being, a sort of incense of admiration for this wealthy creature, who is all too often as stupid as he is pitiless. Isn’t it crazy? And why... why?''
    A Beta NF said that.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kim View Post
    And only I know his real type, so bribe me and I will tell you.
    Errrr... cock?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Bullshit. You know nothing of my relations with these people.
    mmhhhmmm
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat View Post
    *sigh* if I must --

    Look, what he essentially did was start from a given conclusion - I am LSE - and then look for arguments to support that conclusion.
    I think it is probably impossible to eliminate the observer bias fully in socionics and one peculiar problem with this kind of message board is that one opinion easily and almost automatically becomes the default mode and it is rather uncomfortable to argue against it.

    Personally I thought Expat could be ENFJ earlier, but currently I think ENTP just might be possible. Partly for the sake of argument I would like to throw in the Gulenkos Thinking Styles. In my opinion Expat is a cause-effect thinker rather than a Vortex thinker - of course - only as far as I can judge based on his forum posts (and some PMs.)
    "Arnie is strong, rightfully angry and wants to kill somebody."
    martin_g_karlsson


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