Results 1 to 15 of 15

Thread: Why the four-letter type code is deceiving

  1. #1
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default Why the four-letter type code is deceiving

    It leads individuals to think that either:

    a) ABCD = ABCd, an idea of which Phaedrus is just one advocate

    or

    b) IxxJ = Ixxp and IxxP = Ixxj, which Ganin proposes

    These ideas are distracting and what they claim is not always the case. People seem to think that you can just swap the end letter for a lower case version of it if you're Extroverted and that you just switch the lower case letter for its opposite if you're Introverted, and voila, you have your type.

    As I've explained countless times, there are discretions to be made between the functions in MBTT and those in socionics, so that just because you're Se leading in MBTT, it does not mean that the same will be the case in socionics. It may well be the case that you are, but it is not a necessary and sufficient condition of socionics Se that you are MBTT Se.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  2. #2
    Joy's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2005
    TIM
    SEE-Se
    Posts
    24,501
    Mentioned
    58 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I think it's best to just ignore MBTT altogether when you're dealing with Socionics. I see no reason to try to correlate the systems or especially to use your type in one system to help you determine your type in another.
    SEE-Se, 852 sx/so

    Check out my Socionics group! https://www.facebook.com/groups/1546362349012193/

  3. #3

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    b) IxxJ = Ixxp and IxxP = Ixxj, which Ganin proposes
    He certainly does not: http://www.socionics.com/articles/howto.htm

    As confiremd by Ganin himself, he identifies much more with MBTT descriptions of INTJ behaviour and attitudes than with INTP descriptions. He has said that this INTP description: http://www.murraystate.edu/secsv/fye/INTP.htm "is a very cheesy description of NiTe (INTp)" and that "The quest for flawlessness, cleverness, competency, conceptual perfection, and self-mastery is a driving force for INTPs" is "totaly NiTe."

    About this part of the INTP description -- "Such a combination of preferences keeps the INTP caught up in the paradoxical goal of always trying to make a coherent whole out of an endlessly proliferating amount of data. Whether it's an article, drawing, a plan, scheme, thought, or theory, the INTP struggles to fit all its pieces together into a complete picture that keeps expanding with the continual discovery of new pieces. As a result, all thoughts, ideas, and plans, however final they seem, are subject to last-minute changes when "new data," from either internal or external influences, become available. This is very exciting to INTPs and very frustrating to others, especially those with a preference for Judging." -- Ganin has said that it "is very much NiTe, I can't see any Ti there, sorry."

  4. #4
    strrrng's Avatar
    Join Date
    Aug 2007
    TIM
    Ni-IEI 4w3 sx/so
    Posts
    8,781
    Mentioned
    40 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I think it's best to just ignore MBTT altogether when you're dealing with Socionics. I see no reason to try to correlate the systems or especially to use your type in one system to help you determine your type in another.
    agreed. not only because one shouldn't convulate things by mixing systems, but because mbti deals with superficial traits, rendering it almost completely inane.

  5. #5

    Join Date
    Sep 2011
    Posts
    8,578
    Mentioned
    7 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    you haven't explained why the four letter code is deceiving, you've just explained that it is.

    there is a very simple reason why:

    the three letter code is directly derived from model A and of ordering of information elements. the four letter code is not.

  6. #6
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Everything is deceiving to those who haven't bothered to understand it.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  7. #7
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Phaedrus View Post
    He's changed that since I last went on.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

  8. #8

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    4,833
    Mentioned
    6 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    He's changed that since I last went on.
    That is hardly likely. Ganin has'nt said anything like what you are suggesting during all the time I have read the material on his site and posted on his forum, which means as far back as at least spring 2002. So ... you haven't been visiting his site even once during the last five years ...?

  9. #9
    UDP's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jan 2006
    Location
    East Coast West Coast Dirty South
    TIM
    LSE
    Posts
    14,826
    Mentioned
    33 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    you haven't explained why the four letter code is deceiving, you've just explained that it is.

    there is a very simple reason why:

    the three letter code is directly derived from model A and of ordering of information elements. the four letter code is not.
    - - which is why I started using it as much as possible when I first learned what it was.
    The four letter code should only be used to "help" people come to socionics from MBTI, if necessary. But as soon as the student begins to understand that they are not completely identical theories, using the tri-letter code probably would be a good idea - perhaps even as a realization that socionics is its own entity.


    And, I agree with Expat. I was confused at first for a while, I mixed up functions, and on top of that the typing I made early on was based on limited experience socionically, as well as socially and interpersonally. I would almost go so far as to say that your first year of socionics is a testing ground more than anything else, particularly if you are self teaching such an "abstract" subject like this.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

  10. #10

    Join Date
    Mar 2006
    Posts
    1,969
    Mentioned
    2 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    The 4-letter code clearly creates confusions for new people who have an MBTI background, but once one understands the differences, it's not bad. I think people are less likely to make typos when they use it, whereas the three letter code only works when you memorize it, since it's less inherently logical (as it uses "I" to mean both introtim and intuitive and uses "E" to mean both extratim and ethical).

    People always say ignore MBTT, but you really can't because the issue always needs to be explained to new people coming from MBTI. The theoretical distinction is simple: Socionics seeks to define characteristics of Xi vs. Xe and views the most outwardly visible function as the base function, whereas MBTI views the most outwardly visible function as Xe.

    As to notations, I like the idea of using "TiNe" "SeFi" etc.

    Of course now that there's so much interest in +/-, you can now use a 1-element code:

    +Ni instead of ILI
    -Ne instead of IEE
    etc.

  11. #11
    Expat's Avatar
    Join Date
    Jul 2005
    Location
    United Kingdom
    Posts
    10,853
    Mentioned
    27 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Of course now that there's so much interest in +/-, you can now use a 1-element code:

    +Ni instead of ILI
    -Ne instead of IEE
    etc.
    Yeah, right.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

  12. #12
    MysticSonic's Avatar
    Join Date
    Sep 2004
    Location
    USA
    Posts
    2,993
    Mentioned
    4 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    "+Ni instead of ILI
    -Ne instead of IEE
    etc."

    It's still basically a three letter code. I mean, who cares? Why throw in the confusing and controversial +/- aspects of Socionics unnecessarily?

    In any case, MBTT and Socionics is relevant to study and compare because they are both concerned with similar, and knowledge of one can assist with the understanding of the other. While I don't agree that there is a direct correlation of ABCd and ABCD, I believe it can be said to be a general rule of thumb. Thus, informed knowledge of both system is most definitely a benefit.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

  13. #13
    Kristiina's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Location
    Estonia, Tartu
    Posts
    4,021
    Mentioned
    5 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    The 4-letter code clearly creates confusions for new people who have an MBTI background, but once one understands the differences, it's not bad. I think people are less likely to make typos when they use it, whereas the three letter code only works when you memorize it, since it's less inherently logical (as it uses "I" to mean both introtim and intuitive and uses "E" to mean both extratim and ethical).

    People always say ignore MBTT, but you really can't because the issue always needs to be explained to new people coming from MBTI. The theoretical distinction is simple: Socionics seeks to define characteristics of Xi vs. Xe and views the most outwardly visible function as the base function, whereas MBTI views the most outwardly visible function as Xe.

    As to notations, I like the idea of using "TiNe" "SeFi" etc.

    Of course now that there's so much interest in +/-, you can now use a 1-element code:

    +Ni instead of ILI
    -Ne instead of IEE
    etc.
    +Ni as ILI would be quite confusing, because then functions and type names would be the same (because we can still analyze in ILIs and say +Ni). Calling it NiTe would be very good in writing. But there are no good names for TALKING about types. Generally I prefer 4-letter code because it gives more information, but I understand why Wikisocion uses the 3-letter code.
    EIE, ENFj, intuitive subtype.
    E3 (probably 3w4)

    Cool ILI hubbys are better than LSIs any time!

    Old blog: http://firsttimeinusa.blogspot.com/
    New blog: http://having-a-kid.blogspot.com/

  14. #14
    Smilingeyes's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2005
    Posts
    1,228
    Mentioned
    8 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    I prefer the four letter code because it allows the use of such expressions as xntp and isfx.
    Another reason to prefer the four-letter code is that the three letter code gives people the false assumption that in people of the same type, the same function is always dominant, which is very annoying. I actually prefer the use of the form IP-Te- as the most informative and closest to giving the intuitively correct idea of the substance of type to noobs.
    First eliminate every possible source of error. Thence success is inevitable.

  15. #15
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
    Join Date
    May 2007
    Location
    UK
    TIM
    SLE-Ti
    Posts
    9,167
    Mentioned
    9 Post(s)
    Tagged
    0 Thread(s)

    Default

    Quote Originally Posted by Smilingeyes View Post
    Another reason to prefer the four-letter code is that the three letter code gives people the false assumption that in people of the same type, the same function is always dominant, which is very annoying. I actually prefer the use of the form IP-Te- as the most informative and closest to giving the intuitively correct idea of the substance of type to noobs.
    In your version of socionics, can, for example, LSIs be dominant in Se rather than Ti? Is this what you mean?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •