On why the INTps here aren't INTps

[Hitta]

First of all, ILIs prefer the implication thinking style, meaning they use the common sense logic. They love rules. They love any type of assumption based thinking. Rules fit this category. Any logic that doesn't have anything to back it up is the ILIs area of logic(don't take this as a bad thing). Common Sense philosophy(two parallel lines will never touch) ILIs also love to take calculated risks, they spend money to make money. They use resources without worrying about running out. They are unsystematic in their organizations.

ILIs love routine, and lack of change. When they do things they do it in a very methodical way. They take their time and make sure that the job is done thoroughly. ILIs like to fit in(as I have said before). ILI are not rebellious in the least bit, and they tend to follow the rules of society. They tend to lack initiative to start new things(unlike the LIIs how attempt to start things all the time but usually fail in completion or even getting going after the start). ILIs are usually extremely extremely polite. They tend to be courteous and call people by Mr Mrs or Ms and their last name. They tend to be very flaw finding. When they do find a flaw they tend to be very unforgiving and usually make sure that justice is placed upon what or who is flawed or has produced the problem.

[Iconoclast IX]

Based off this, you are correct. I would NOT be an ILI.

But what basis have you in these statements?

That is the question.

[marooned]

First of all, ILIs prefer the implication thinking style, meaning they use the common sense logic. They love rules. They love any type of assumption based thinking. Rules fit this category. Any logic that doesn't have anything to back it up is the ILIs area of logic(don't take this as a bad thing). Common Sense philosophy(two parallel lines will never touch) ILIs also love to take calculated risks, they spend money to make money. They use resources without worrying about running out. They are unsystematic in their organizations.

ILIs love routine, and lack of change. When they do things they do it in a very methodical way. They take their time and make sure that the job is done thoroughly. ILIs like to fit in(as I have said before). ILI are not rebellious in the least bit, and they tend to follow the rules of society. They tend to lack initiative to start new things(unlike the LIIs how attempt to start things all the time but usually fail in completion or even getting going after the start). ILIs are usually extremely extremely polite. They tend to be courteous and call people by Mr Mrs or Ms and their last name. They tend to be very flaw finding. When they do find a flaw they tend to be very unforgiving and usually make sure that justice is placed upon what or who is flawed or has produced the problem.

I thought Ti was more about static rules. Te is dynamic, and so is Ni.

Why would an irrational type be fond of routine and lack of change?

Why would an Ni dominant, or really any reasonable person, use resources without considering they will run out if not replenished, or if they are limited?

Lots of types and people are "flaw finding." What sorts of "flaws" do ILIs notice the most?

I thought Ti was more likely to go for "any kind of assumption based on thinking" in that it's theoretical. Kind of like what you're doing.

Does common sense philosophy mean Te>Ti, or are there other possibilities?

I suppose your last statement could go with the Fi HA, when it's overactive I mean.

Broken record.

[Jonathan]

Well first of all, this is just a matter that you have a different theory, which is fine. In another thread, people are talking about Socionics vs. MBTT again, and the fact is that those approaches are really just subtly different in some of their basic premises, which ends up leading to hugely different perspectives on how best to understand a person's type. If we were to look at, say, how Rick types people...and he's one of the most respected and informed typists here...he probably wouldn't consider any of the kinds of considerations that you're talking about, so his typings would probably be quite different from yours. But you're certainly entitled to your system and your typings.

That said, who on this forum is presumed to be ILI but is not according to your system, and what do you think their types are? And who here do you think is truly ILI (if anybody)?

[strrrng]

ILIs love routine, and lack of change. When they do things they do it in a very methodical way. They take their time and make sure that the job is done thoroughly. ILIs like to fit in(as I have said before). ILI are not rebellious in the least bit, and they tend to follow the rules of society.

this is bullshit, another assumption based off of the shaky +/- shit. how many times do you have to hear this - you take it way too far. Look at any basic description of rationality and irrationality - that trumps any bullshit you have mustered based on your system.

Look at the IP temperament on wikisocion, anything...get in reality.

niffweed, I am certain you are ILI, so will you please address these questions: are you fond of, or atleast accepting of, change? do you "follow rules" and follow through with everything you do?

[Ezra]

Conform? My arse. ILIs are amongst the most idiosyncratic of the types.

[Phaedrus]

These parts of hitta's ILI description are clearly consistent with, or identical to, commonly accepted descriptions of ILIs:

1. ILIs prefer the implication thinking style, meaning they use the common sense logic. They love rules. They love any type of assumption based thinking. Rules fit this category.

2. Common Sense philosophy. [I haven't seen this clearly stated anywhere, but it seems to be a correct implication of the nature of the ILI's thinking. I will try to come back to this aspect of two different forms of philosophical thinking, where some of my previously stated hypotheses were not entirely correct and can be improved upon.]

3. ILIs also love to take calculated risks, they spend money to make money. They use resources without worrying about running out.

4. They are unsystematic in their organizations.

5. ILIs love routine, and lack of change.

6. When they do things they do it in a very methodical way. They take their time and make sure that the job is done thoroughly.

7. They tend to lack initiative to start new things.

8. They tend to be very flaw finding.


These parts are more problematic in the sense that they are at least questionable:

9. When they do find a flaw they tend to be very unforgiving and usually make sure that justice is placed upon what or who is flawed or has produced the problem. [ILIs seem to be more forgiving than LIIs. When the problem is identified, it doesn't matter much to the ILI who is responsible for it as long as it is solved. This difference can perhaps be viewed as a manifestation of the general differences between the IP and the IJ temperament.]

10. ILIs are usually extremely extremely polite. They tend to be courteous and call people by Mr Mrs or Ms and their last name. [That may be true in many, or even most, cases, but it is also true that an irritated ILI will not (as an LII will more likely do) try to hide his irritation and anger and may in such a situation become very aggressive, harsh, and impolite, in extreme cases throughing all courtesy out of the window -- compare descriptions of Fe PoLR in Socionics and/or descriptions of the inferior Fe function in MBTT INTPs.]

11. ILIs like to fit in (as I have said before). ILI are not rebellious in the least bit, and they tend to follow the rules of society. [This might depend on what we mean by saying that. I'm neither sure of how exactly to understand the claim nor how to determine it's truth value.]

12. Any logic that doesn't have anything to back it up is the ILIs area of logic (don't take this as a bad thing). [I'm not sure what is meant by a "logic that doesn't have anything to back it up". What would be an example of a logic that DOES have something to back it up?


And this part seems to be false:

13. (unlike the LIIs who attempt to start things all the time but usually fail in completion or even getting going after the start) [LIIs are simply more likely to complete things/projects than ILIs. That is not only the supposed manifestation of the theoretical difference between rational and irrational types but also strongly confirmed by empirical observations of real life behaviours of LIIs and ILIs.]

[liveandletlive]

i wouldn't go so far as to say they love rules. they usually follow them but that stems from their and knowing that they should in order to get what they want. their also works into their lack of initiative and inclination towards routine.

[reyn_til_runa]

i wouldn't go so far as to say they love rules. they usually follow them but that stems from their and knowing that they should in order to get what they want. their also works into their lack of initiative and inclination towards routine.

i can buy this.

for me, the general course of events or the general method i need to adopt in order to handle events is predictable after enough data points are plotted. i agree that there's easy awareness of cost/benefit analysis, seeing what would result from one move versus another, collecting information and drawing connections to the point of knowing almost undoubtedly that something will happen as i predict it will. how could it not? or at least, if it could not, why should i concern myself with that until i see it happen? for now, precedence predicts probability. when i witness a fluke, i will take it into account. and, yes, lack of initiative can be related to this tendency because if things are going to evolve in a generally predictable manner with me adopting generally predictable methods, then sometimes motivating myself to interact with the process (not on auto pilot) is difficult. there are different kinds of processes, however. and of course, some are less clear than others.

[Phaedrus]

Why would an irrational type be fond of routine and lack of change?

Interesting question. But before trying to answer it, you should familiarize yourself with what is commonly said about ILIs in socionic type descriptions:

"It is not a supporter of sudden changes and all kinds of revolutions. Abide view that the goal should be to move gradually through small changes-you committed to a stable, evolutionary development."

"KRITIK (Balzac, INTP)
Big sceptic and pessimistic. Passive and more conservative: does not like change, the excesses of a hurry and goryachatsya."

"The skrupulezen on any matter. To stability, does not like sudden changes, prefers evolutionary development is the goal of small, but good steps."

"INTps are very sceptical to others who are undertaking new beginnings. They are able to pour cold water on others burning enthusiasm."

"One of INTp problems is that they can be extremely pedantic. Sometimes they pay so much attention to every detail of certain jobs that this waste of time and energy can lead them to become fatigued and even to loose interest in the work. Sometimes they can become obsessed with the quality and freshness of food. Also INTps can have static tastes and habits./Another of INTp problems is an excessive scepticism about new ideas and new projects, especially if projects require a lot of energy and enthusiasm for their development. This causes some conservatism and passiveness if INTps are involved in such projects. INTps also have a tendency to perceive life pessimistically often trying to escape radical solutions to problems that arise."

"The rules for INTps often transform into rituals and they have no problems with rituals. Because of this INTps could get comfortable with routine, often mistyping themselves into J types, resulting in many of them thinking of themselves as INTjs. However the most common way is for INTps to type themselves into INTxs, with undecided preference for J or P."

What sorts of "flaws" do ILIs notice the most?

Logical contradictions, specific details that don't fit the overall "picture", false statements ...

I thought Ti was more likely to go for "any kind of assumption based on thinking" in that it's theoretical.

That is a too common misconception of the functions and the types.

Kind of like what you're doing.

Don't take for granted that hitta has typed himself correctly. At least not yet ...

Does common sense philosophy mean Te>Ti, or are there other possibilities?

Very good question. I am not sure of the correct answer, but my initial hypothesis has always been, and still is, that the dividing line between the two major types of philosophy reflects the difference between Ti and Te.

[drd252]

First of all, ILIs prefer the implication thinking style, meaning they use the common sense logic. They love rules. They love any type of assumption based thinking. Rules fit this category. Any logic that doesn't have anything to back it up is the ILIs area of logic(don't take this as a bad thing). Common Sense philosophy(two parallel lines will never touch) ILIs also love to take calculated risks, they spend money to make money. They use resources without worrying about running out. They are unsystematic in their organizations.

ILIs love routine, and lack of change. When they do things they do it in a very methodical way. They take their time and make sure that the job is done thoroughly. ILIs like to fit in(as I have said before). ILI are not rebellious in the least bit, and they tend to follow the rules of society. They tend to lack initiative to start new things(unlike the LIIs how attempt to start things all the time but usually fail in completion or even getting going after the start). ILIs are usually extremely extremely polite. They tend to be courteous and call people by Mr Mrs or Ms and their last name. They tend to be very flaw finding. When they do find a flaw they tend to be very unforgiving and usually make sure that justice is placed upon what or who is flawed or has produced the problem.

That doesn't actually address why ILIs on the board aren't ILI; as (most) everyone else has said, that's a fairly accurate description of an ILI.

[Hitta]

Conform? My arse. ILIs are amongst the most idiosyncratic of the types.

Um.... no, this is not MBTI.

[Jonathan]

Please...this is a meaningless debate unless we know which people hitta believes aren't ILIs and what types he thinks they might be.

[reyn_til_runa]

pointless in relation to hitta's personal quest, but not in relation to exposing the differences between various so-called INTps on the forum.

[aestrivex]

Please...this is a meaningless debate unless we know which people hitta believes aren't ILIs and what types he thinks they might be.

this is a meaningless debate anyway.

[strrrng]

5. ILIs love routine, and lack of change.

so, the IP temperament on wikisocion is bullshit?

relaxed
go-with-the-flow....IPs are both dynamic and irrational, so they see reality as in continuous, gradual, often imperceptible change. An IP is soothed by this, seeing reality through his leading function. This leads to a relaxed inclination to take things as they come and adapt to them.

maybe both definitions are accurate in different ways? I could see INTp's wanting consistency, due to +Ni/-Ne...but still...

[Phaedrus]

so, the IP temperament on wikisocion is bullshit?



maybe both definitions are accurate in different ways? I could see INTp's wanting consistency, due to +Ni/-Ne...but still...

Haven't you read the ILI type descriptions and my quotes from those? ILIs clearly have an IP temperament, and yet they are also clearly described as being skeptical of changes. They are bad at establishing order by themselves, but they are different from ENXps in that they certainly prefer order to creative chaos. If you have observed the behaviour of real life ILIs, you would see that the apparent contradiction is not a real one.

[strrrng]

that's why I said it was possible each definition was right in a different way

[Kristiina]

ILIs love routine, and lack of change. When they do things they do it in a very methodical way. They take their time and make sure that the job is done thoroughly. ILIs like to fit in(as I have said before). ILI are not rebellious in the least bit, and they tend to follow the rules of society. They tend to lack initiative to start new things(unlike the LIIs how attempt to start things all the time but usually fail in completion or even getting going after the start). ILIs are usually extremely extremely polite. They tend to be courteous and call people by Mr Mrs or Ms and their last name. They tend to be very flaw finding. When they do find a flaw they tend to be very unforgiving and usually make sure that justice is placed upon what or who is flawed or has produced the problem.

you even contradict yourself! your website isn't working right now, so I can't quote you, but I read there yesterday that +Ni is also about belonging to the population and -Ni is about not belonging to the population. what you describe here is the opposite of that.

[Kristiina]

+ Introverted Intuition- Gradual progression into the future, step by step productivity, convergence of the population, confidence, sense of safety, reproduction of past tendencies, reproduction of the past, evolution, acceptance of the unknown, normalness, prediction, foresight, steady time stream.

-Introverted Intuition- Sharp shifting progression into the future, out of phase productivity, divergence of the population, fear, sense of anxiety, fear of death, fear of unknown, preparation against dangers, novelty, originality, singularity.

ILI's have -Ni. "Novelty, originality, singularity, divergence of the population" (makes sense as >) and now it has suddenly changed into "ILIs like to fit in(as I have said before). ILI are not rebellious in the least bit, and they tend to follow the rules of society. They tend to lack initiative to start new things(unlike the LIIs how attempt to start things all the time but usually fail in completion or even getting going after the start). ILIs are usually extremely extremely polite. They tend to be courteous and call people by Mr Mrs or Ms and their last name."

[Kristiina]

I thought ILIs had +Ni.

I thought I had +Ni. And my mirror should have the same as me. so Ni with Fe would be +Ni. Not sure tho. There is no objective non-hitta basic information about +/- functions.

[Kristiina]

Nah, you've got +Fe, I know that much, and therefore -Ni.

Where did you hear that? Are you sure about that? Completely sure?

[Kristiina]

Well, maybe 90% sure. I'm remembering it from the pages that used to be on this website, and discussions I had about them.

For example, I misguidedly suggested to ChibiKeba that she was SEI because she related to -Fe>+Fe, and misguidedly thought that switching from Beta to Gamma was supported by -Ne>+Ne.

*shakes head at self*

This was a while back, though.

ummm... if you misguidedly thought that alphas have -Fe, then it would have been correct to think that alphas have +Fe (Fe blocked with Si is +Fe) and that betas have -Fe. Right?

[BLauritson]

My way of remembering about the whole +Xy and -Xy thing is to think about the positivist/negativist dichotomy. Basically which one you are depends on the sign of your creative function: A + creative function makes you a positivist and vice versa for negativist. So yes, ILIs have +Ni with -Te. Likewise, an IEI has -Ni with +Fe (hence positivism). An EIE has +Fe with -Ni, hence negativism. As long as you can remember what your type is for this dichotomy, you can work the rest out based purely on that.