Advice needed: unique situation SEI-ILE duality (ISFp & ENTp)

[Robot Santa]

Edited Again: I felt this post had too much personal information for a public forum. Sorry if I killed the story for any readers.

I (ILE) need advice on whether I should visit a girl (SEI) from my past who’s engaged, lives 8000 miles away, and who I’ve only seen once in six years, three years ago when I visited her without telling her. I don't plan on going through any kind of extended pursuit, if my appearance isn't mostly enough, I'll fly back the next day.

One of my SEI homey best friends (who is not familiar with and doubtful of socionics) thinks I’m crazy for considering this, so please let me know if you think that too.

Another female SEI (also not familiar with and doubtful of socionics) said I should go as long as it feels right. It feels completely fine to me, but what goes through my mind are all of the Se/Si considerations ie the distance, jobs, friends, etc, and the Ne possibilities (although none of them really mean anything today) - but if what my SEI friend says is true, then I should ignore all of that right? Should I ignore the S, N and T? It all seems pretty real to me.

[Expat]

First, yeah, that does seem like ILE-SEI.

What are you trying to achieve -- make her leave her fiance? To marry you?

It seems to me that you've already decided to give it a try.

Consider this, however -- your presence there might conceivably make her change her mind. It doesn't mean that it will stay changed.

[PotatoSpirit]

And then I emailed her some links about duality and she got furious, I think because she thought my suddenly expressed interest was conjured theoretically, and she stopped answering my calls.

Heh that basically said "you're one of the million girls I could go along very well with" (c:

[Blaze]

@Robotsanta: i'd go....just because you seem to be convinced that she is the one and only girl of your dreams. but don't get your expectations up.

[Expat]

Heh that basically said "you're one of the million girls I could go along very well with" (c:

Interestingly, I hadn't thought of that. What I thought was that he was referring to external, second-hand information to "justify" the interest; that is, using , which she'd see as pointless/stupid/etc.

[cracka]

I'd say she'll be reeeally pissed if you show up. Who's to say she isn't happy the way thjings are and that you going there and potentially ruining her relationship with someone she loves enough to be *engaged* to.
I can see her saying exactly what she's said already about changing... I dunno. I think your best bet would be finding someone else and getting over it. just my opinion though.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Expat]

I'm not saying that he should seek her, but, honestly this:

I think your best bet would be finding someone else and getting over it. just my opinion though.

is pretty much the most annoying and useless kind of advice in these situations, in my opinion. It turns individuals into objects. "It didn't work with this one? No problem, look for another one". Ugh. It implies that your goal is to be with "someone", not with an specific individual. And yes, sometimes it doesn't work with the specific individual, but the idea of "find someone else and get over it" -- ugh.

ETA: and yes, what Diana said makes the most sense.

[Blaze]

yeah she is saying stop it. but i think he's willing to give this a total final shot and he'll always wonder what would have happened if he doesn't do it. so he sorta has to do it even though it may not go well. you never know.

but i see the point about listening to her and giving up, too.

btw i thot cracka's advice was fine!

[Expat]

yeah she is saying stop it. but i think he's willing to give this a total final shot and he'll always wonder what would have happened if he doesn't do it. so he sorta has to do it even though it may not go well. you never know.

That I can understand, yes.

It looks like I'm flip-flopping -- but I do think Diana's advice is the most sensible; however, at the same time, I can understand why he feels the need to give it a final try -- provided it's really final.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[tiny_dancer]

@ Robot Santa - I wouldn't go. It sounds like you had a wonderful experience studying abroad with her, but sometimes its best to leave those where they are and enjoy the memories. Her fiancee has spent the past 4+ years building a relationship with her and proving that he's going to be there for her. You're asking her to give up a lot of hard work and shared experiences and destroy the person she's engaged to for something that happened a long time ago. Even if you guys are duals, there are still a lot of real life issues that you'd end up having to sort out and there's no guarantee that you could. If someone just showed up on my doorstep, and I was truly happy with my current relationship, I don't think I'd throw it away for something that may have a romantic appearance, but hasn't been proven. Especially since you didn't call her for 2 years after your last visit. I agree with Expat - what are you hoping to achieve? I see more bad possibilities than good.

[Not A Communist Shill]

I think the best option in such an uncertain atmosphere would be to apologise for saying that you would simply turn up on her doorstep - if you continue to say this, she may think there is something slightly stalkerish about you. But if you apologise and then leave it, there's a possibility she might relent and invite you. Then again, she might not, but it's better than just letting everything go. I really doubt that it is wise to simply turn up unannounced considering what she has said.

[cracka]

is pretty much the most annoying and useless kind of advice in these situations, in my opinion. It turns individuals into objects. "It didn't work with this one? No problem, look for another one". Ugh. It implies that your goal is to be with "someone", not with an specific individual. And yes, sometimes it doesn't work with the specific individual, but the idea of "find someone else and get over it" -- ugh.

WTF? Annoying or useless to you maybe. I could say, just wait it out and she'll end up divorcing the girl of your dreams... then what... He's 60 wondering why he's still single and dreaming of "the one" just because he never got over it and moved on.

The easiest way to get over a relationship is usually to find someone else and naturally people get over it. It's the easiest advice to give in this situation but of course, the hardest to take. I typed up my reply in about a minute this morning before going to work and this is the easiest way to put it. Just because you don't like hearing it and don't like what it means doesn't mean it's not true or useless in any way.

If the thread starter does in fact go through with what he really wants to do I can almost guarantee that it won't go the way he wants it to. Hell, I get pissed if someone I know shows up at my house unannounced... much less someone trying to "steal" me from someone else I am in love with.

As to the part of the "final" try. She's had what she wants to be her "final" say in this and wants no more of it... she said it... it's right there in black and white... when people start deciding they know what's better for someone else and make decisions that affect others lives it never works out and just pisses them off.

Imagine standing on her doorstep when she comes home with her fiance/husband... For more effect, let's put you there with a bouquet of flowers too. If the husband doesn't beat your ass, who's he gonna be mad at? As much with her as he would be with you I'd imagine.
Then you not only solidified you position as not with her since she may easily not want to talk to you ever again. You've also ruined what good of a relationship they've had since it would bring up issues that she's seeing you on the side...etc. Oh, and just to make it more fun... let's make her 6 months pregnant just to realize how screwed up this situation actually could be.

In short... showing up at her door would be a bad move IMO. It would be very selfish to do so even though you think you'd be better for her than the guy she's with, who I'd bet you don't really know very well.

Again, you best bet would be to move on and try to get over her. If you don't, you'll just waste even more time thinking about something that will most likely never happen.

[ScarlettLux]

What the hell was so "unreal" about your experience with her anyhow?

You sound really obnoxious to me, saying that you don't want to go on an extended pursuit but just expect something out of "your presence" ... um, alright. If you really want her that badly and it was something true and deep, then I believe you shouldn't give up so easily if you're gonna go this far anyhow.

But come on .. why didn't you call her in the first place? I still don't understand the entire story and it seems like you're only taking your own feelings into consideration here.

[Expat]

@cracka: you totally miss the point, but never mind. If you don't get it, you don't get it. I think others do.

[Slacker]

If she told you not to bother her, you should honor that. She's an adult and she's able to make that decision without you calling her after she told you not to and showing up unannounced or whatever. If you came to my doorstep in that situation, I'd call the police. Really.

That was harsh but it's what needs to be said. Sorry.

[Minde]

@cracka: you totally miss the point, but never mind. If you don't get it, you don't get it. I think others do.

Alpha v. Gamma?

[Wittmont]

RobotSanta, first off this is not a unique situation.

I'm sorry but imo you have no right to come barging into her life again, based on some 'unreal' [your subjective take] thing that happened years ago. She has the right to her own life, and may not appreciate you coming in and damaging, perhaps even destroying her current relationship. Perhaps you already did.

Trust is a fragile thing, and you might ruin things for her forever between her current fiancé and her. Love is nothing without faith. And you might hurt the faith in her current relationship just by showing up and upsetting her in front of her fiance. And with no guarantee you two will hit it off again. Bygones are bygones and there is no guarantee you two still will share whatever you shared before, duals or no. You cannot turn back time.

If she says no, you must respect that and leave her alone. You cannot chose for her. It must be her own choice, and you cannot force a choice upon her. Furthermore, you cannot use duality as a club to hit her over the head with. Do you even love her? Isn't it a bit strange that you leave her alone for years then suddenly pop up at her door? If you base your decision on a theory, and not real love for her, then you should get out of her life now. If you put pressure on her like this, and she eventually comes around to you, she may still hate herself for doing so, and hurting her fiance whom she most likely loves deeply.

Move on and find a new girl for your life. Maybe then one day she will turn up at your door and demand you back (you get the point). Be grateful for what you once shared, but move on. You cannot be a third wheel in her life. You may scar three people very badly for life, if you turn up at her door uninvited (well two if you are able to just shrug it off and move on, leaving them to deal with what just happened). You cannot be selfish in this. Life is not a movie, and if you do not respect her wishes in this you do not respect her at all.

[Blaze]

yeah i think i'm gonna go with the consensus here....to hell with romantic ideas of reconciliation. you could always write a letter if you think she would respond to that.

[Mediator Kam]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but it seems that you've been chasing her and overall, being very "forward" about it. SEI's can get very touchy and emotional when it comes to relationship issues, and don't want to be in a relationship unless they really "feel it".

Also, I don't like it when someone is pressuring me to be in a relationship, I want to take it at my own pace.

[cracka]

@cracka: you totally miss the point, but never mind. If you don't get it, you don't get it. I think others do.

I get your point... just don't agree with it.

[Expat]

I get your point... just don't agree with it.

No, from your answer, you clearly didn't get it, not even enough to disagree with it in an informed way.

[cracka]

No, from your answer, you clearly didn't get it, not even enough to disagree with it in an informed way.

Inform me then. Help me understand why my advice is useless and annoying?

[cracka]

Let it go...

No, I really do want to know what he means... If I "clearly didn't get it" then I'd like to know why. I obviously read his comment very differently than it was implied.

[implied]

I'm not saying that he should seek her, but, honestly this:



is pretty much the most annoying and useless kind of advice in these situations, in my opinion. It turns individuals into objects. "It didn't work with this one? No problem, look for another one". Ugh. It implies that your goal is to be with "someone", not with an specific individual. And yes, sometimes it doesn't work with the specific individual, but the idea of "find someone else and get over it" -- ugh.

ETA: and yes, what Diana said makes the most sense.

god, yeah, i agree. this pisses me off. it's as if you can't fall in love with an individual because of their qualities. any old piece will do! anyone!

anyhow, i think you should find someone who actually likes you back. she doesn't sound worth the time. at best, you can wait it out a few years, and she'll break things off with her fiance anyway. if it's really "meant to be" perhaps she'll realize it. i'm not sure he should seek her out really either.

[Not A Communist Shill]

It is a cliché that we all have a soulmate who we are destined to be with...but then it's also a cliché that there are many fish in the sea .

[cracka]

god, yeah, i agree. this pisses me off. it's as if you can't fall in love with an individual because of their qualities. any old piece will do! anyone!

anyhow, i think you should find someone who actually likes you back.

Wait... so you just said you hate when people do this... then in the next sentence say "you should find someone else."

[cracka]

I was commenting to RobotSanta.

I was saying let the girl go..

It's over, sometimes.. you have to let go...

Ah, I apologize then... In the context I took that differently.

[implied]

Wait... so you just said you hate when people do this... then in the next sentence say "you should find someone else."

how is that contradictory? i agree with expat in that his presence might change her mind for a minute. but for now at least, she's not going to change and she's made what is probably to be considered a pretty important decision -- deciding to have some guy as a fiance. who knows if she takes marriage seriously? i just think he should respect the decision. and yeah, forget about her in whatever way possible (not really necessarily saying this involves finding someone else -- it doesn't always -- people have different methods of coping and the "best way to get over someone is to get under someone else" doesn't always seem smart. some people find solace in this though.) basically, he should probably forget about her because she's probably forgotten about him, as stupid as it is.

[cracka]

how is that contradictory? i agree with expat in that his presence might change her mind for a minute. but for now at least, she's not going to change and she's made what is probably to be considered a pretty important decision -- deciding to have some guy as a fiance. who knows if she takes marriage seriously? i just think he should respect the decision. and yeah, forget about her in whatever way possible (not really necessarily saying this involves finding someone else -- it doesn't always -- people have different methods of coping and the "best way to get over someone is to get under someone else" doesn't always seem smart. some people find solace in this though.) basically, he should probably forget about her because she's probably forgotten about him, as stupid as it is.

I agree with this. by saying get over it and find someone else i'm not saying to go out and spend all your time "finding your next soulmate," it's more like... she's done with... let that one go... and then at some point in the future... whether that be next week or 5 years from now.

I think Expat and you are implying that by saying get over it and find someone else that I'm saying the person you're no longer with means nothing and you should just jump on the next person who comes along. Which is far from what I meant but it's the easiest way to say it.

[redbaron]

Cracka, you sound exactly like my ESE husband. I mean exactly. If he had to reply to this post, that is probably word for word what he would say. LOL

[aestrivex]

@cracka: expat is basically criticizing the idea that you presented that your goal seems to be with a specific person in order to be with somebody, and that as long as you're with somebody and are happy with it, it doesn't really matter who it is that you're with.

this view is instead of to actually being with a specific person for that personal connection with that person.

it's obvious Fe/Fi. he's not disagreeing with you about the "let it go" thing.

[implied]

I agree with this. by saying get over it and find someone else i'm not saying to go out and spend all your time "finding your next soulmate," it's more like... she's done with... let that one go... and then at some point in the future... whether that be next week or 5 years from now.

I think Expat and you are implying that by saying get over it and find someone else that I'm saying the person you're no longer with means nothing and you should just jump on the next person who comes along. Which is far from what I meant but it's the easiest way to say it.

well he did ask for advice based on experience with alpha SFs, and from my own experience with some Si types, they're likely to completely wipe out their past with you and act as if it doesn't exist. which seems like what she's doing. i do agree with expat more that it at least sounds gross-- like you can't really fall in love with an individual and have deep feelings for someone heh. personally i can't imagine just substituting old friends for new friends, or old lovers for new lovers. my exes (and my friends) are individual people, is what i mean, with unique qualities. i agree that staying suspended in the past isn't entirely helpful, but i can relate to being hung up on something or having an attachment to a CERTAIN person. when my dad dies, i can't just "get another dad," you know? so that suggestion is sort of gross.

[redbaron]

Sigh. I dunno. I agree with Kamangir--SEIs do NOT like to be pressured. However, it does sound like there was something special there at one point. Maybe (or maybe not) it deserves revisiting. She's engaged, yes. Well I keep thinking about this guy who was calling me just before I got engaged and I kept holding him off. Now I'm not saying I regret it. Not at all, but I do wonder if the prior relationship deserved one final...something or other. If he's really into her enough to knock on her door. WOW if someone did that, I think it would get my attention (but then again, I'm a victim so I go for that sort of thing). Yeah, probably just leave her alone. But I don't agree with the line "if it's meant to be, she won't marry her fiancee". No, she'll marry him. There is no "meant to be". It's just choices. If she's engaged just because she wants to be married and she's "settling" then maybe she needs a visit from Mr. Robot Santa. But we really don't have enough information. We have to assume that she's made her decision with her engagement and that's that.

[Creepy-Diana]

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[Ms. Kensington]

to the original poster, the ILE heh..

you want to know what to ask yourself? Ask yourself what you will need for you to be satisfied with whatever you hear from her, even if that is silence. You will keep trying and noone can beat you at thinking of situations where there is ambiguity at her feelings, or what should be done. I would listen to cracka, i think its one of the few advices that will work with alpha NT to remove pain from their lives, provided the alpha NT's plans to win back someone dont work. I would do what you need to do to feel better, then leave her alone. Good luck.

I believe in magical moments, but realistically its very possible you have idealized her, and how would you ever know, if you are the deluded one? I think you could meet her, but do it tastefully.

[implied]

Sigh. I dunno. I agree with Kamangir--SEIs do NOT like to be pressured. However, it does sound like there was something special there at one point. Maybe (or maybe not) it deserves revisiting. She's engaged, yes. Well I keep thinking about this guy who was calling me just before I got engaged and I kept holding him off. Now I'm not saying I regret it. Not at all, but I do wonder if the prior relationship deserved one final...something or other. If he's really into her enough to knock on her door. WOW if someone did that, I think it would get my attention (but then again, I'm a victim so I go for that sort of thing). Yeah, probably just leave her alone. But I don't agree with the line "if it's meant to be, she won't marry her fiancee". No, she'll marry him. There is no "meant to be". It's just choices. If she's engaged just because she wants to be married and she's "settling" then maybe she needs a visit from Mr. Robot Santa. But we really don't have enough information. We have to assume that she's made her decision with her engagement and that's that.

i'm saying i don't see any sort of permanency in her decision and attempting to be encouraging in a sort of half-assed way, hah. a legal contract doesn't guarantee a relationship or attraction. a lot of people get married for reasons that are totally unrelated to "real feelings," marriages of convenience and the like. granted, a lot of people are lazy about divorces, but do you see what i mean? she could be single soon or could decide to call off the marriage. a lot of people make stupid decisions regarding this sort of thing.

again, basically the same as you, i don't really have enough information on the matter.

[aut0]

I agree with everyone who said to leave her alone. She said she was happy and told you to stop calling her, she's made herself clear regardless of what you think.

[Ms. Kensington]

That I can understand, yes.

It looks like I'm flip-flopping -- but I do think Diana's advice is the most sensible; however, at the same time, I can understand why he feels the need to give it a final try -- provided it's really final.

yes that's what im saying as well. ILE needs to establish some rules for himself beforehand whats going to make it final for him, then do it. Otherwise, there will always be a reason to try something else with her.