she reminds me of a forum member here.
Shirley Ann Manson
she reminds me of a forum member here.
Last edited by silke; 06-25-2014 at 07:38 AM. Reason: updated videos
she seems cool
Garbage is my emo-music
SEE Unknown Subtype
6w7 sx/so
[21:29] hitta: idealism is just the gap between the thought of death
[21:29] hitta: and not dying
.
Reminds me a lot of my old boss. I'm really not sure but just as a guess maybe Delta ST? I can see lots of things working including Beta ST and possibly Beta NF so I really have no clue..... anyone see any functions being used? I fell like she doesn't have a problem using Se at all, or so it seems to me.
Suomea
my ghostly features! hah. i like her as well. i see the body language resemblance.Originally Posted by ScarlettLux
no idea about her type.
nice little interview.
and some quotes that kinda point away from resolute.
http://www.brainyquote.com/quotes/au...ey_manson.html
Last edited by implied; 01-02-2008 at 10:13 PM.
Reminds me of Angelina Jolie in her demeanor.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
Shirley Ann Manson
I think she's SLE. Regarding subtype, my first guess would be Ti-ESTp, although Se-ESTp wouldn't surprise me.
Here are some pictures:
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi.../T1000tscc.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...onsept2008.jpg
http://a6.vox.com/6a00cdf7e3e1d9094f00f48d0e6c160001-pi
http://medias.milongamusic.com/Photo...Ann_Manson.jpg
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ageGrammys.jpg
http://s3.hubimg.com/u/1617002_f248.jpg
http://innervision.hit.bg/shirley/shirley-manson.jpg
http://www.znamtop.ru/photopage/shir...manson_002.jpg
Here are several songs:
Last edited by HERO; 12-27-2011 at 06:34 AM.
I would have thought of her as a more anxsty ENFj.
Her seeming angst actually is a lot more of an image than I'd previously expected. Regardless, she comes across as more genuinely personable than I would expect out of an ESTp.
I recall him VI-ing a fuckton like George Harrison. He also VIs a lot like this Ne-INTj guy in my study-abroad group, although I don't have pictures to show for it. Definitely comes off as Pe-Ij in any case imo.
I kind of find his Pale Blue Dot video to be uninspiring. It feels like he's trying to explain why somebody should have a particular subjective response to something, which I wouldn't expect out of a Te/Fi valuer. It's like "this is how I feel, you should think like me so you can feel the same way I do about it," and I just can't help but ignore things like that. Thunderfoot on Youtube does that a lot too, and Sam and I consider him to be INTj.
Last edited by Galen; 08-26-2010 at 02:13 PM.
Here's a quote from David Keirsey regarding the ESTP. Although it isn't Socionics, and might not be accurate or whatever, oh well.
- from Please Understand Me II: Temperament, Character, Intelligence by David Keirsey; p. 64 [The Promoter (ESTP)]: "Promoters are so engaging with people that they might seem to possess an unusual amount of empathy, when in fact this is not the case. Rather, they are uncanny at reading people's faces and observing their body language, hypersensitive to the tiniest nonverbal cues that give away the other's attitudes. ESTP's keep their eyes on their audience, ever on the lookout for signs of assent or dissent, and with nerves of steel they will use this information to achieve the ends they have in mind--which is to sell the customer in some way. Winning people over with this kind of brinkmanship might seem exhausting to others, but Promoters are exhilarated by working close to the edge. Indeed, a theme of seeking excitement through taking risks runs throughout their lives."
And in my subjective opinion she looks a bit like Ayn Rand here:
http://medias.milongamusic.com/Photo...Ann_Manson.jpg
And Ayn Rand is typed as SLE here:
Socionics Visual Identification Gallery
Plus, in my opinion Shirley Manson has a "Sensing" face (aka "rectangular"):
Socionics :: Intuition / Sensing
And once again, in my opinion, "gentle [irrational/perceiving] lines":
Socionics :: Rationality / Irrationality
And in my opinion she has "less expressive face and body language" compared to ethical/Feeling types:
Socionics :: Logic / Ethics
I'd say that a lot of SLE's are mistyped as EIE's [Beta NF's]. I could be wrong. [Then again IEI's also get mistyped a lot--as ILE's, EIE's, LII's, SLI's, EII's, ILI's, etc.]
Definitely Beta NF. I think ENFj is far more likely than INFp, though I can't quite make myself rule it out. Heavy Ni subtype with her ENFj perhaps. Kinda Scarlety:
Arctures: delta just produces boring people
Arctures: but that's how we like it
vero: who needs a real person
vero: That's why I date an SLI
dolphin: someone tell gulanzon adjusting shower water to the right temperature is not si
Kraezz: you just have to do the ****** thing sometimes
I might be inclined to say Ni sub too, but I'm not 100% on it.
She's either INFp or ISFj, by the way she looks.
Perhaps the ENFj typing is correct. I don't know. I just checked out all these (additional) responses to this thread now.
With the mistypings I was referring more to famous (and historical) people than people on forums. Then again I'm still not sure why some people (at least three) people on Socionics.com thought I was ENFj, and then months and months later I go here and some people VI me as ISTp or INTp. So am I supposed to choose a compromise: INFp or ESTp. I originally thought I was INFp before I ever let people type me by my words or pictures...
Anyway, I wanted to add that I often thought Shirley Manson is a lot like my aunt, just my aunt is seven years older and obviously different in some ways (they're different people). Yet my aunt is a fan. I'm not sure they're the same type, yet at the very least they're in the same quadra (I think).
The first time I ever tried to type Shirley Manson (back in August, 2009 I think) a friend helped me V.I. her as ISFj. Later on I considered Beta NF by myself, and then Beta in general.
Anyway, this is something my aunt once wrote, and I'm trying to figure out if she's SLE, EIE, or something else:
I don't know about socionics, it is so difficult to find a way to quantify/classify/determine somebody's psychological profile and assign clear cut labels. Based on the choice of some words that one believes describe oneself?
But I suppose it is done for purposes of simplification?
I took this socionics test myself and the result was that:
I was strongly E and T and the overall result was ESTj and second ESTp. It said that I perceive myself as ESTj which is The Director. The other one was the Conqueror.
I don't understand what this may be.
For instance I am a sociable person, and relate easily to other people. If I really need to make friends with the sourest and most hateful morose monster, I can do that easily and efortlessly due to a high degree of empathy and maybe personal charisma.
On the other hand I am very much into my own inner world and this inner world is vast and intense, I'd rather stay home and read, write,etc all day in my pyjamas.
I am very intuitive, I see things other people don't see, I fill gaps,etc. I think my intuition is quite something, yet it didn't show on the test.
The structure of personality is not just one side.
Here is something else my aunt once wrote on the Internet (as a review for a movie):
Question: "Are you ready to sacrifice your life on the altar of your beliefs?"
Probable answer: "Yes,under the right circumstances (the absence of a real life and hope)"
So maybe all martyrs share/d a similar destiny,the same constellation of events,predisposition and despair leading them to accept physical annihilation in exchange for the spark of life to ignite the fire of their ideas.
Anyway, perhaps I have this misconception because I think that SLEs are supposed to be more free-spirited and that that is why they dualize with IEIs, while I tend to stereotype EIEs as more structured or traditional for lack of a better word. More like a teacher, or even someone teaching emotions management or something akin to that. Maybe I am wrong. And that is why it makes sense for EIEs to dualize with LSIs. I just think there are a lot of types of each type if that makes sense. And while there are some SLEs that can be very hardworking and self-sacrificing at different points in life, they can also brag a lot or be very defensive and can sometimes complain about being mistreated or misunderstood, and usually blame or judge everyone else. Perhaps that is not type-related per se, and most likely is not a stereotypical SLE, so I should learn more about this. And the IEI tries to bring things into a more emotional, ethical, and people-oriented context; the IEI can be more of a detached observer, yet can also criticize the SLE. Yet I think there are a lot of IEIs that often see themselves as lacking compassion or sensitivity (at times) and sometimes think that they hate people or that they are not really human, yet SLEs often feel similar. So sometimes they end up thinking that they are both narcissistic, arrogant, monstrous, antisocial, misanthropic, fucked up people; yet in the end the SLE is often seen as being crazier, more impulsive, more vengeful or reactive in the heat of the moment, more destructive; and constructivist--more likely to hold on to things (and stew or ruminate)...in some ways IEIs can move on better because they have Fe in their ego block, and they are emotivists, so in some ways IEIs want to have more new experiences (including socially or romantically), while SLEs (secretly) crave more stability, yet at the same time SLEs do not want to feel bored, underappreciated--they want to feel respected and loved yet they often take more than they give (their hidden agenda gets in the way--I guess the more dysfunctional SLEs secretly want to be hated and despised and ostracized as a defense although they do not deal well with criticism or moral judgments); and (paradoxically) the IEI can often see the SLE as being too needy, clingy, dependent, reactive, and of course gullibe in a logical or Thinking way (when it comes to emotions and feelings):
Socionics :: Logic / Ethics
Logical types
-weakness: more subject to emotional manipulation and not recognizing others' true feelings and attitudes in time
I can totally relate to that. And of course ethical or Feeling types can exploit that weakness.
Ethical types
perception: •in communication focus on and study people's feelings and emotional state based on nonverbal signals and how things are said
emotions: •more confident of and able to consciously control their feelings and emotions
•adapt their emotional expression to those they interact with
So Logical types can manipulate people or guilt trip people or play games, yet they are not as adept at deceiving people emotionally or whatever, and obviously Logical types are slower in that regard, at realizing what is really happening, so in a way I think they are more likely to be blinded by their emotions and make errors of judgments because they are usually more distant or alienated from their emotions or genuine feelings than Ethical types are, yet that does not mean Logical types cannot be emotional, expressive, passionate singers or whatever. Obviously ifis valued in their quadra they can express it, yet it might not have a very rational, structured, or pedagogic slant. Fe in my opinion, being rational, is more disciplined, more like a teacher, a lot more of a (true) believer...
I just remembered, I probably should not be saying this because it is his idea, yet Pied Piper once wrote about Believing or Non-Skeptical types versus Non-Believing or Skeptical types. This was his theory or whatever, not mine, so I am not trying to take credit for it... Perhaps I am not remembering it accurately:
Believing, Non-Skeptical types: ENTp (ILE), ESFj (ESE), ENFj (EIE), INFp (IEI), ESFp (SEE), ISFj (ESI), INFj (EII), ENFp (IEE)
Skeptical, Non-Believing types: ISFp (SEI), INTj (LII), ISTj (LSI), ESTp (SLE), INTp (ILI), ENTj (LIE), ESTj (LSE), ISTp (SLI)
Of course ILEs are more likely to be true believers when it comes to science or something like socionics or mysticism or magic or dreams or mysterious occurrences, and usually not so much with (organized) religion. ESEs can have a stronger faith in God, yet they often do not necessarily like to belong to a church, although they can, they still are more idealistic and less conformist than Gamma SFs for instance. Alphas are dreamers, Gammas are more realistic. Of course any type can be religious per se. Yet the types listed under the Believing or Non-Skeptical types are more likely to be the true believers (as opposed to just putting on a show or front), those types are more likely to genuinely whole-heartedly believe whatever they believe (and that includes ILEs with Socionics or science or categories or mystical occurrences or whatever it happens to be for them). SLEs on the other hand tend to lose a lot of their faith for lack of a better word especially as they get older (from childhood to adolescence to adulthood) due to disillusionment. To quote a Bob Dylan song (Positively 4th Street): You say you lost your faith
But that's not where it's at
You had no faith to lose
And you know it
SongMeanings | Lyrics | Bob Dylan - Positively 4th Street
or a PJ Harvey song (Joy): No hope or faith
She wanted to go blind
Wanted hope to stay
'I've been believing in nothing since I was born, it never was a question.'
SongMeanings | Lyrics | PJ Harvey - Joy
or a Courtney Love song (Never Gonna Be The Same): And if I wanted Christ or a Messiah by my side
I can't believe in anything I know that Mary lied
SongMeanings | Lyrics | Courtney Love - Never Gonna Be The Same
Or on some level SLEs think that they cannot truly believe in anything or that they never really believe anything, whereas if someone an IEI respects claims to be (spiritually) enlightened they will believe completely, and they have the capacity to put complete faith in so many things. (Yet at the same time they can be fickle in a way like a lot of other Believing types--and I guess it can relate to romantic love as well which is a form of religion; they will embrace romantic love easier yet also get over it easier if it ends.) They (IEIs) can be skeptics about a lot of stuff, yet when it comes to either psychics or spiritual gurus, or some sort of belief system, be it the enlightened awareness site, or Anton LaVey, or whatever, they will truly believe it wholeheartedly even if for a short while. IEIs are often like butterflies and will often not like to be restricted by some very strict organized religion, and of course not all of them believe in God, although a lot do, yet they have some sort of value system related to integrity or conversely simply looking down on or demonizing a society or the world. IEIs have some faith about the future, whether they believe there is light and that there will be a beautiful new world some day or on the other hand, they may espouse a form of nihilism and not really care, and act like everything is getting bad or getting worse, yet they often have artistic and intellectual tendencies, and always have more faith in something (whatever it is) than an SLE would. The SLE may seem more questioning, yet they focus a lot more on the concrete and physical and what really happened and what is actually happening and practical solutions (although this is not necessarily limited to Sensing or logical types), while the IEI (while far from being dogmatic or rigid) `is more excited by brilliant perspectives of "bright cities, which may be built one day".`
Intuitive-ethical introvert (Bradbury, The Lyricist)
My Mom might be an ESE although I am not sure, and she would say stuff like your life is bad because you do not believe in God. Like even about Madonna (who she sort of likes although she is not necessarily that big of a fan of pop music in general) my Mom would say that her life is not that great and that Madonna had the divorce(s) and everything because Madonna is not actually a true believer, and if you do not actually believe you are punished I guess. She sometimes says the same thing to me. So I guess my Mom would see Madonna as another b***h (or d**k) who fakes belief for image, and SLEs do things because they think they can get something out of it. Even if they appear self-sacrificing or heroic, they often want an audience, or they want something good to come out of it, they want attention, etc. Same thing with Courtney Love with Buddhism I guess. I guess it depends on one`s perspective.
So perhaps even LSIs can be religious, yet there is some pragmatic or mechanical approach to them. They seek solace and comfort and help yet they are not so much true believers as they are actors, like their duals, just more reserved and logical . . . (LSIs often do not need their religion to be cool or novel although some may study or analyze spirituality or obscure and esoteric matters). LSIs may want to appear righteous, or that they have changed, yet on some level they do not really...and they are just trying to save themselves, and they may have doubts, and it seems like their religious or spiritual beliefs if they have any have a rather premeditated and calculated feel to them, and while they espouse them they may betray them (in small or little ways). And of course they may appear dogmatic, yet they are often not as serious as they appear to be, and really quite practical and ambitious I guess.
So back to Shirley Manson--
there is a song where she seems to espouse or advocate a seemingly anti-religion or atheistic stance. Yet of course there probably are EIEs that are not fervent believers, yet I think it is interesting:
SongMeanings | Lyrics | Garbage - Wicked Ways
Clutch your pictures of the Pope
(just like I told you)
Pray to God for love and hope
(just like I warned you)
Bring the Virgin home for luck
(just like I told you)
Bolt the door down, keep it shut
(just like I warned you)
Yet this song may or may not seem to contradict that on some level:
SongMeanings | Lyrics | Garbage - Can't Cry These Tears
Can't find it in the bible
Can't find it on TV
Can't find it in diamonds
There's something inside me that just won't allow me to
Find it in music
Can't find it in my soul
Can't find it in chocolate
Oh babe I can't hide it
I can't even find it in you
I guess there is a good chance that she is Si-PoLR (and ethical) rather than Fi-PoLR. I obviously still have a lot to learn.
Yet at the same time I consider someone like Gwen Stefani that is typed SLE, and I guess she can seem personable. I remember someone who thought she V.I.d as EIE, and that is how I typed her back in August, 2009. Yet I think SLE actually makes more sense. Here is an interview of her:
I would just like to know more about what the differences between SLEs and EIEs are, because often I am not really sure if I can always differentiate or distinguish between Beta ST and Beta NF.
And I really do not think that all-base types seem brash, assertive, and outgoing; and obviously not all the time, and it definitely depends on how confident they are, how good their social skills are, what their childhood was like, how they feel about their identity, what their subtype(s) is or are, who they hang around with if they hang around with anyone at all, social class, etc. I still think that even Extroverts can be isolated or reclusive, and that it is even worse for them, because they lose (a lot more) energy being alone, and so there is more entropy for them, and they just end up stagnating more, and becoming more paralyzed and lethargic and lazy and `caught in the magnet tar pit trap` (of inertia or being inert), and while it is not common, it is a lot worse for Extroverts in my opinion, and impacts their self-esteem more and makes them more depressed then it would for Introverts. I could be wrong.
And maybe I just see typings in general (including my own) as kind of arbitrary and random. Perhaps that is related to my innate doubt and skepticism. A psychic I once went to (just for the sake of going because I had never been to one) thought I was a 4 in the Enneagram.
Anway, perhaps I should once again consider Ni-ENFj as my aunt`s type as well. For all I know I might be an Ni-ENFj, although perhaps it is not likely. I am very sure that I am not SLI, yet I still think that SLE or IEI are the most likely. And I have my reasons for holding on to SLE, although IEI is a close second. I just cannot help thinking that I should have better social and interpersonal skills if I was IEI (an ethical type). And I relate to the SLE personality a lot more in terms of identity, and I relate to Fi-PoLR more than Te-PoLR.
Last edited by HERO; 04-26-2011 at 07:37 PM.
Do any of the EIE's (ENFj's) on the forum have an opinion either way regarding Shirley Manson being typed as Ni-ENFj?
Wrong or right, I don't care; I have a new revelation to add to this. My Aunt doesn't think she's EIE. And since my Aunt reminds me so much of Shirley Manson, that can mean one of maybe three things: Shirley Manson is not EIE, my Aunt is a type from another quadra that is somewhat complementary/compatible to Shirley Manson's, or my Aunt is Shirley Manson's dual or mirror or something, etc.
Anyway, this is like Socionics in action/motion -- very exciting. Here's what my Aunt had to say:
"I don't think I can relate to the Performer [ENFj (EIE)] type you suggested, I think I'm quite far from this type.
In my interactions with people I am formal, reserved, do not like to attract attention. I am not nervous if I am observed, I may not even notice. I do not care much what effect I have on people, except for very few instances. For me life is not a stage. I try to blend in while still keeping my individuality expressed in a discreet way. And mostly for myself.
I do not get easily excited, I am very laid back and have a robust personality. Nor do I deflate easily. For me it takes time to build enthusiasm in either direction. I am forever analyzing ideas, situations, plans in my mind, turning them on all sides, not rushing into conclusions. Just keeping them on a shelf of the memory to be picked up sometime. Or never.
My feelings are steady, do not fluctuate much.
I love a handful of people in different ways, but never hate them at the same time.
Hate is a very extreme feeling to me and have very seldom experienced it. I do not even hate my ex-husband, who has wronged me and my children in so many ways.
I am repelled, that's the word. As if contemplating an aberration of nature. I don't even feel hatred for the man who threw [******] out of the window. He is just a small part of the general chaos and rampant squalor of R*****a, breeding out of control for lack of police authority and in the middle of a sick society. I may feel a tinge of hatred for the doctors who neglected her in the hospital, almost condemning her to death, because they were indifferent, irresponsible, mercantile, incompetent. But again, maybe hatred is too intense a word.
I am not pushy. I am assertive and my authority is based on my increased responsibility and competence.
Just a few explanations as to the Performer [ENFj (EIE)] type.
It is hard to suggest a type for someone you barely know.
And I think in general what does it mean to be for instance an extrovert or an introvert?
For example, I have a very intense inner life and discourse, lots of reflection and thinking and analyzing, also so many things I keep for myself and never share.
On the other hand I do so love and find easy to relate to people and listen to their stories, ask questions, tell my stories.
So am I an extrovert or an introvert? Or can one be both?
These classifications are only very general hints.
For instance: somebody may have a strong sense of duty or may be totally irresponsible.
Or: someone may have very bad taste in home decorating, clothing, etc or may have very good taste, which can fork into: conventional good taste and creative and original good taste.
I have never been into personality tests. They give the most puzzling results. Or I may be wrong. You know more than me about this.
[The grocery store] may not be the ideal workplace for you. Probably a bookshop or music/film shop. Or a library, concert hall.
Something related to what you do every day.
But then maybe after you finish your studies you'll go to University and discover a new world."
From what she wrote it should be very obvious that my Aunt might be Fi-valuing, and definitely not Fe-dominant. She used the word "repelled" (as in feelings of repulsion) as opposed to hate/hatred. Check this out:
http://www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml
"introverted Feeling/introverted ethics/relational ethics: Subjective situation of fields. Subjective relationships between objects: feelings of attraction and repulsion, like and dislike, need and antipathy; morals, subjective judgments."
Contrast this with extraverted Feeling --
Sergei Moshenkov and Wing Tung Tang M. Sc., MBTI and Socionics: Legacy of Dr. Carl Jung (Lexington: USA, 2010), 137:
- p. 137 [ENFj - The Actor]: "Carl Jung correctly notes that the Extraverted Feeling type has a disintegrity of emotions -- they can hate you in one situation and love you in the next one, compensating this inconsistency of emotion with the sheer strength of the emotional affect."
vs.
Sergei Moshenkov and Wing Tung Tang M. Sc., MBTI and Socionics: Legacy of Dr. Carl Jung (Lexington: USA, 2010), 155:
- p. 155 [ISFj - The Witch]: "Though the ISFj's I've met seemed to laugh quite often, nonetheless their emotionality is rather black and white compared to the Fe [extraverted Feeling] types. The ISFj can be really cold and disheartening. They keep most of ther emotions to themselves, and generally there is a high wall between their internally felt sea of emotions and you."
I think that both my Aunt and Shirley Manson sound more Fi [introverted Feeling] (and possibly ISFj/ESI) as opposed to Fe (Beta NF/EIE).
- from Personality Type: An Owner's Manual by Lenore Thomson; pp. 192-193: ISFJs will go out of their way to help a family member in trouble, a misunderstood coworker, or a perfect stranger sitting next to them on a bus. They rarely consider the amount of time or effort their involvement will require -- or even the potential consequences of their actions. They may find it difficult to justify, or even to verbalize, their fundamental motives, but they are quite certain they are doing the right thing and will not be swayed from their perceived task.
For this reason, ISFJs can seem stubborn, even when their behaviors are demonstrably selfless, or unable to appreciate people who aren't in some way dependent on them. They may react to signs of a person's independence as a kind of betrayal, which leads to their feeling jealous and possessive of the people they care about.
ISFJs are puzzled and hurt when others bring this aspect of their behavior to their attention. They don't experience themselves as strong or controlling. If anything, ISFJs see themselves as too "easy," too influenced by others' opinions, too eager to please, too scattered, unable to decide when to take a stand and when to give in.
http://www.garbage.com/discog/index73ba-2.html
Garbage lyrics -- "Medication":
"Please don't call me self defending/You know it cuts me to the bone . . . And still you call me co-dependent/Somehow you lay the blame on me"
- pp. 193-194: They're [ISFJs are] constantly wrangling with themselves over their need to be true to themselves and their desire to maintain interpersonal harmony, and they sometimes wonder if they're simply rationalizing their inability to stand up for their rights or beliefs.
Like ISTJs, ISFJs have an idiosyncratic view of reality, but they don't recognize how individual their perspective really is. Their comments and observations often precipitate reactions from others that surprise them. ISTJs, in the inimitable way of most TJs, are hurt by rejection, but generally conclude that the problem is with other people's intelligence. ISFJs are more likely to be wounded by an unsympathetic response, and they're inclined to conclude that their opinions aren't good enough or worth voicing.
In fact, many ISFJs develop a self-deprecating sense of humor -- intended, presumably, to beat others to the punch. Where ISTJs will comment on the little absurdities of life, as much for their own amusement as for that of others, ISFJs will call attention to their own foibles -- as it were, telling on themselves.
- Garbage lyrics -- "Why Do You Love Me":
http://www.garbage.com/discog/indexa291.html
"I'm no Barbie doll/I'm not your baby girl/I've done ugly things/And I have made mistakes/And I am not as pretty as those girls in magazines/I am rotten to my core if they're to be believed"
- pp. 195: ISFJs are often praised for their loyalty to lost causes, but they can actually use this proclivity to avoid real intimacy.
For example, such types can become accustomed to relationships in which all emotional risks are taken by the other, and the ISFJ's own weaknesses and problems remain private. Indeed, some ISFJs unwittingly undermine the efforts of others to become independent for fear of losing the relationship, and they can make serious romantic mistakes -- choosing partners who are likely to keep them in a service-oriented role. They may have a difficult time with stories or movies that don't end happily and in favor of emotional commitment.
Garbage lyrics -- "You Look So Fine":
http://www.garbage.com/discog/indexa723-2.html
"You look so fine/I want to break your heart/And give you mine/You're taking me over . . . Do what you want to do/Just pretend happy end . . . Let's pretend, happy end . . ."
Here's a lyric from a song from Shirley Manson's band Garbage:
"I think you're sleeping with a friend of mine/I have no proof/But I think that I'm right"
-- "Why Do You Love Me" by Garbage
Here's a quotation regarding the ISFj (ESI) --
Ekaterina Filatova, Understanding The People Around You: An Introduction To Socionics (Hollister: MSI Press, 2006), 66:
- p. 66 [THE GUARDIAN: Feeling-Sensing Introvert (FSI)]: "Guardians do not always grasp the actual abilities of people. Due to this, they may accuse their mate of cheating on them, without any real ground for such an accusation."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley...ical_influence
'Early in Manson's teenage years, she became a fan of Siouxsie and the Banshees albums The Scream and Kaleidoscope, and taught herself how to sing listening to those albums, later stating "many of the songs of those two albums were massive loves of my life". Vocalist Siouxsie Sioux embodied how Manson aspired to be as a teen. Manson would later write the foreword to Siouxsie & The Banshees: The Authorised Biography.'
Sergei Moshenkov and Wing Tung Tang M. Sc., MBTI and Socionics: Legacy of Dr. Carl Jung (Lexington: USA, 2010), 152:
- p. 152 [ISFj - The Witch]: "The apparent difference between the Fi [introverted Feeling] and the Fe [extraverted Feeling], is that when an Fi carrier sees a homeless person, she may pass him without handing money out, but will later be motivated to volunteer at a shelter, or start a movement to help the homeless. The Fe on the other hand may give the homeless man a $20 [bill] during that situation, but that's all."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley...n#Charity_work
"Manson has used her and Garbage's profile to raise awareness and funds for a number of causes, commissioning a Garbage branded lipgloss online, with all proceeds from the sales split between Grampian Children's Cancer Research and cancer treatment institutions at Royal Aberdeen Children's Hospital in Scotland and the Memorial Sloan Kettering Hospital in New York.
Shirley Manson donates £51,000 to Waverley Care on behalf of M•A•C AIDS Fund. In 2001, Manson became an ambassador for the M•A•C AIDS Fund, fronting their fourth two-year charity lipstick marketing campaign alongside Elton John and Mary J. Blige, beginning with the launch of the VIVAMAC IV lipstick in March 2002, in which all proceeds of the sale of the lipstick goes to help fund AIDS charities and initiatives. While touring, Manson visited several AIDS charities in Amsterdam, Edinburgh, Toronto, New York, San Francisco and Madison to make several donations totalling over $300,000 on behalf of the M•A•C AIDS Fund."
'[Shirley] Manson is also a keen lover of animals. In 2007, Manson fronted an international poster campaign for PETA Europe, holding the carcass of a fox under the headline "Here's the rest of your fur coat". Manson has also adopted a rescue dog, a terrier-mix named Veela, named after the fictional beings from the Harry Potter books.'
My Aunt is similar in her love for animals and pets. She has often expressed that she likes/loves them more than many humans. Here are somethings she wrote (about seven months ago):
"Z**o my German Shepherd died today at 5 p.m.
He was almost 10 years old. He was a true friend and a brave companion.
He was loved and his absence is painful and irreparable.
He will always be alive in my heart and memories."
"Nothing I did in this world is right.
But is there ever "right" in a man's life?
Maybe the friendship I gave to Z**o [her German shepherd], yes, that was right. That was [me] embracing the true essence of nature and love, shunning limp words to describe it and thus diminish and distort it."
"Yesterday I saw him lying there, on the orange velvet catafalque - he was still beautiful and imposing in death as he had been when alive, a big handsome long haired German shepherd.
Death could not make him look pitiful or grotesque, the way it transforms humans.
I held his paw, the one he was giving to me when I came home."
I think that it is quite common for Introverted Fi-valuing types in particular to have a great fondness for animals and pets, a love that is a lot closer and authentic than it is for Fe-valuing types and Extraverts in general.
And unlike myself, my Aunt (and I'm assuming Shirley Manson as well) wouldn't just give $20 or $10 (or whatever) to a homeless person and just move on . . .
Sergei Moshenkov and Wing Tung Tang M. Sc., MBTI and Socionics: Legacy of Dr. Carl Jung (Lexington: USA, 2010), 23:
- p. 23: "The extravert[ed Feeler] expresses the emotions that the object is likely to feel, whereas the introverted feeler expresses personal subjective emotions. When passing a homeless person the extraverted feeler is more likely to give 10$ and walk on. The introverted feeler is more likely to give 1$ but is likely to start volunteering at a shelter."
"[Shirley] Manson's first job was volunteer work in a local hospital's cafeteria, then as a breakfast waitress at a local hotel before spending five years as a shop assistant for Miss Selfridge, beginning on the make-up counter."
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley...#Personal_life
Ekaterina Filatova, Understanding The People Around You: An Introduction To Socionics (Hollister: MSI Press, 2006), 64:
- p. 64 [THE GUARDIAN: Feeling-Sensing Introvert (FSI)]: "Although people of this psychological type are rather emotional, they prefer to keep their emotions in themselves. They are rarely open, even with close friends. Stories like this one are typical for Guardians:
This winter, my former classmate Lily (an FSI) got married. When I found out, I couldn't believe it, as I'd never seen her in the company of any young man, much less a boyfriend. To the question of how long they'd dated before marriage, she answered, <About three years, not counting the years he served in the army.> I tried not to bring up the subject anymore because Lily didn't like talking about her personal life."
http://www.contactmusic.com/news.nsf...remony_1144373
' "Rocker-turned-actress SHIRLEY MANSON is a married woman after recently exchanging vows in a secret ceremony in Los Angeles . . . She refused to divulge any details or reveal the identity of her beau . . . Manson wed in a courthouse registry service and decided against celebrating the union with a honeymoon, choosing instead to stay in a hotel in Los Angeles.
She added, "It was very unromantic. We eloped and went to the L.A. courthouse and it was about as unromantic as you can get. It was so unromantic it was super hot. You just turn up (to the courthouse)." '
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shirley_Manson#Garbage
I also think that this illustrates that she's an "Aggressor":
'[Shirley] Manson also performed in an uncredited role as a dominatrix in the music video for She Wants Revenge's single "These Things".'
This video illustrates what Bolt termed the "sick" sexual style of the Decisive quadras, as opposed to the "vulgar" sexual style of the Judicious quadras.
http://www.slideconsulting.com/Eroti...groupings.html
'AGGRESSOR
The Assertive Types
ESTp "Marshal", ISTj "Inspector"
ESFp "Ambassador", ISFj "Guardian"
Views others in an openly arrogant and aggressive way expecting complete mental submission. Can have a very victim-like look using indirect methods to control others and turning aggressive when they refuse to submit. Hates signs of weakness in themself thus interacts like a bossy control-freak. Usually takes an insistent tone towards others thus presenting with an "I am in control (like your supervisor)…" attitude.'
http://www.slideconsulting.com/Eroti...groupings.html
'Aggressors/Employers: ESFp, ISFj
These types, like the conquerors, express their sexuality openly. In daily life they may tend to be rather submissive and as a result may tend to carry over these tendencies into their romantic life. They are won over by indirect acts of submission, and are thrilled when their love interest (in the case of the "psuedo-aggressor" type) acts unlike himself. In a partner, they are looking for their equal - someone whose solid facade they can break down piece by piece.'
Now that I've completed most of the written section of this thesis, here's a conclusion. In this thread I brought up one of Bolt's many insightful theories. In this case, that of Skeptics versus Believers. Well here I would like to expand some of my thoughts on this (wrong or right), and bear in mind that I originally wrote this around September/October, 2010 in a notebook, as an attempt to respond to the inspiration that Bolt's ideas had provoked within my consciousness. Here it is:
- Skeptics [ISFp (SEI), INTj (LII), ISTj (LSI), ESTp (SLE), INTp (ILI), ENTj (LIE), ESTj (LSE), ISTp (SLI)] do it (more) for the "fame"/"recognition" [or what is intrinsically practical/pragmatic/helpful]
- Believers [ENTp (ILE), ESFj (ESE), ENFj (EIE), INFp (IEI), ESFp (SEE), ISFj (ESI), INFj (EII), ENFp (IEE)] do it more for the "music"/"magic"
The ISFp (SEI), INTj (LII), ISTj (LSI), ESTp (SLE), INTp (ILI), ENTj (LIE), ESTj (LSE), and ISTp (SLI) types are more like apostates or posers. Kind of laissez-faire about most beliefs, not particularly apt to completely embrace some utopian belief system to the point of being a life-long member or activist. One could say they're (almost) more realistic and/or skeptical (pragmatic), and perhaps in some ways more inclined to be irreverent, or rebellious against beliefs or ideologies [dogmas] they don't want to be (completely) controlled by -- even Socionics.
Either they're rebellious and/or they pretend to be devout believers (with their followers) yet may sometimes be plagued by personal doubts (and apathy) they may not share. They can be religious, spiritual, or passionate yet they can only go so far. They are the swift, not the strong.
The ENTp (ILE), ESFj (ESE), ENFj (EIE), INFp (IEI), ESFp (SEE), ISFj (ESI), INFj (EII), and ENFp (IEE) types on the other hand are more like the genuine believers or simple life-long learners. Perhaps they find more beauty in things through being energized by a belief system. [Or (in other words) they're more dependent on a belief system, ideology, dogma, peculiar/bizarre/individual/unique/'idiosyncratic'/specific way of seeing/viewing the world or of being, or a "frame of orientation and devotion."]
While Skeptics will look more to the details, facts, theoretical possibilities and/or concrete matters/enjoyment of their interests; Believers will be more fascinated with the bigger picture and long-range implications (and alternatives) of their belief system and prove to be more consistent, long-suffering, and/or steady in their endurance and faith in a system (or "frame of orientation and devotion") -- be it [a form/school of] psychology, Socionics, God, a religion, a science, you name it. One could say they have more of a one-track mind [especially the ENFj (EIE) for example] when it comes to these things, and their beliefs/ideas can be more radical/original yet still within a structure/box. They are the champions of their beliefs and have a lot more long-term stamina than Skeptics who may believe (yet actually/in fact are not as "genuine").
- Non-believers [Skeptics] play with things/ideas more; they're not as serious; they often/may contradict themselves and their ideas/beliefs.
- Skeptics [Non-believers] take a more pragmatic, realistic, detached, clinical, distant, and/or practical approach to faith/belief; arid or dryer -- less dogmatic, bombastic, absolutist, etc.
This is nothing new to me
It takes more than what you got
To frighten me
I'm not scared of you
There's nothing you can do
Or take from me
Untouchable
You think you're untouchable
You know
No one's untouchable
You're bound to lose the game
There's no one else to blame
You play so safe
And you're not risking enough
You are doomed to be undone
I swear I'll be the one
To bring you down
It's all your fault
Cause you got caught
It must be nice
To be so sure
And never feel insecure
It must feel good to believe
You're always right
And you're never wrong
You've got something to say
You say it to my face
And be a man about it
You got a problem with me
Don't go behind my back
Just like a baby
Pride comes before you take a fall
You'd best beware a woman scorned
Cause no one's untouchable
"I hurt ******* today/To see if I still feel/I focus on Socionics/The only thing that's real . . . You could have it all/My empire of dirt/I will let you down/I will make you hurt . . . I wear this crown of thorns/Upon my liar's chair/Full of Socionics thoughts/I cannot repair/Beneath the stains of time/The feelings disappear/You are someone else/I am still right here . . . What have I become/My [Swedish] friend/Everyone I know goes away in the end . . . If I could start again/A million miles away/I would keep my[type]/I would find a way . . ."
Last edited by HERO; 12-27-2011 at 05:32 AM.
I'd like to know why she uses mansons name. Is that her real name? Or is she just a media whore?
"Shirley Manson was born in 1966 to John Mitchell and Muriel Flora Manson (née MacKay) at the Queen Mary Maternity Home in Edinburgh."
LSI: “I still can’t figure out Pinterest.”
Me: “It’s just, like, idea boards.”
LSI: “I don’t have ideas.”
So you think estps really are used car and door to door salesman, and basically often scam artists Ashton?
I've changed my mind. I've finally accepted that Shirley Manson is most likey Ni-ENFj (Harmonizing subtype).
http://absolutegarbage.net/articles/hot-style/
'Are you an introvert or an extrovert?
“Definitely an extrovert. I don’t like having time and space on my own. It freaks me out. I like being around people at all times, that’s why I do what I do. It’s funny because I’m not [an] extrovert about things that I really care about. Anything that’s troubling me, I don’t talk about it.”'
Now that I've accepted that she probably is Ni-ENFj, here's my list (in order of likelihood):
1. Ni-ENFj (H-EIE)
2. ENFp
3. Fe-INFp
4. ISFj
5. ESTp
6. ESFp
7. Fe-ISFp
8. INFj
I'm living without you
I know all about you
I have run you down into the ground
Spread disease about you over town
I used to adore you
I couldn't control you
There was nothing that I wouldn't do
To keep myself around and close to you
Do you have an opinion?
A mind of your own?
I thought you were special
I thought you should know
But I've run out of patience
I couldn't care less
Do you have an opinion?
A mind of your own?
I thought you were special
I thought you should know
I used to amuse you
I knew that I'd lose you
Now you're here and begging for a chance
But there's no way in hell I'd take you back
Do you have an opinion?
A mind of your own?
I thought you were special
I thought you should know
But I've run out of patience
I've run out of comments
I'm tired of the violence
I couldn't care less
I'm looking for a new [4x]
We were the talk of the town [4x]
I thought you were special [4x]
Last edited by HERO; 12-27-2011 at 06:29 AM.
Shirley Ann Manson
I'm inclined to agree with the Ni-ENFj typing of her.
Shirley Manson: Ni-ENFj (Harmonizing subtype) [ENFj-INFp]
"Somebody get me out of here: I'm tearing at myself/Nobody gives a damn about me or anybody else . . . . Please don't call me self-defending/You know it cuts me to the bone/Though it's really not suprising/I hold a force I can't contain . . . . And still you call me co-dependent/Somehow you laid the blame on me/Somebody get me out of here: I'm tearing at myself/I've got to make a point these days to extricate myself . . . ."
"She's not the kind of girl/Who likes to tell the world about the way she feels about herself/She takes a little time/In making up her mind/She doesn't want to fight against the tide/Lately, I'm not the only one/I say, 'never trust anyone'/Always the one who has to drag her down/Maybe you'll get what you want this time around . . . . The trick is to keep breathing . . . . She knows the human heart/And how to read the stars . . . . I won't be the one who's going to let you down/Baby, you'll get what you want this time around . . . ."
http://www.garbage.net/garbage/articles/@5-99.htm
Are you an introvert or an extrovert? "Definitely an extrovert. I don't like having time and space on my own. It freaks me out. I like being around people at all times, that's why I do what I do. It's funny because I'm not extrovert[ed] about things that I really care about. Anything that's troubling me, I don't talk about it."
She's ISFj.
"I Think I'm Paranoid" is basically a Victim anthem (unhealthy victim, at least):
You can look, but you can't touch
I don't think I like you much
Heaven knows what a girl can do
Heaven knows what you've got to prove
I think I'm paranoid
And complicated
I think I'm paranoid
Manipulate it
Bend me, break me
Any way you need me
All I want is you
Bend me, break me
Breaking down is easy
All I want is you
I fall down just to give you a thrill
Prop me up with another pill
If I should fail, if I should fold
I nailed my faith to the sticking pole
...
Steal me, deal me, anyway you heal me
Maim me, tame me, you can never change me
Love me, like me, come ahead and fight me
Please me, tease me, go ahead and leave me
...
Bend me
Break me
Anyway you need me
As long as I want you baby it's all right
Of the Victim types, EIE works for me. Whatever type she is, she's HOT.
A lot of Manson's on this site lately. I have a hard nut to crack as well and I was thinking you know the answer, agape, so I am asking now - what type you think Marilyn Brando is?
@agape I'm pretty sure we already have pre-existing threads on the last four celebrity type threads you've made. Use search function plz
also yeah likely EIE
Marlon Brandon was LIE.
Wrong as hell
There could not be a more obvious and indisputable Beta ST.
But, for a certainty, back then,
We loved so many, yet hated so much,
We hurt others and were hurt ourselves...
Yet even then, we ran like the wind,
Whilst our laughter echoed,
Under cerulean skies...
I'm sorry, I just wanted to add a poll. One of the other threads about her was one I started, so I'm aware....
Anyway, here are examples of lyrics from her songs:
"Maybe I could write a letter/To help me with my self-esteem/You should get to know me better/No one's ever what they seem"
"I've got to keep myself together/You know I hate to disappoint/A masochistic lamb to slaughter . . ."
"I'll tell you something/I am a wolf but I like to wear sheep's clothing/I am a bonfire/I am a vampire/I'm waiting for my moment"
"We are not your kind of people/You seem kind of phoney/Everything's a lie/We are not your kind of people/Something in your makeup/Don't see eye to eye/We are not your kind of people/Don't want to be like you/Ever in our lives/We are not your kind of people/We fight when you start talking/There's nothing but white noise . . . . Running around trying to fit in/Wanting to be loved/It doesn't take much/For someone to shut you down/When you build a shell/Build an army in your mind/You can't sit still/And you don't like hanging around the crowd/They don't understand//You dropped by as I was sleeping/You came to see the whole commotion/And when I woke I started laughing/The joke's on me for not believing//We are not your kind of people/Speak a different language/We see through your lies/We are not your kind of people/Won't be cast as demons/Creatures you despise . . ."
I really can't argue with Ni-ENFj for her. She reminds me a lot of my Aunt, who's definitely Ni-ENFj...yet can be easily mistyped as Gamma SF (Se-ego and Fi-ego).
Two threads produced exactly two years apart discussing the same person?
Shirley not.
ESE-Si
I am Milk.
Last edited by vesstheastralsilky; 11-28-2018 at 06:37 PM.
~* astralsilky
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
per Gulenko reasoning & some others, but not mine. Some of their collected descriptive portraits might work but fail functional analysis and fit ESE-Si, the Si which could make some of them mistype as a P.
~* astralsilky
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
LOL
Spoken like a true LSE!
~* astralsilky
Each essence is a separate glass,
Through which Sun of Being’s Light is passed,
Each tinted fragment sparkles with the Sun,
A thousand colors, but the Light is One.
Jami, 15th c. Persian Poet
Post types & fully individuated before 2012 ...
For some reason I doubt in EIE for Shirley
LOL I don't remember writing the above, I was just here to say I think Shirley is EIE, haha
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