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Thread: Wtf-sfp?

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    Default Wtf-sfp?

    I'm either:

    a) An ESFP who doesn't like parties and large groups, who spends more time alone than most ESFPs, and who likes being 'onstage' but would hate being 'a leading lady', to follow the performer analogy.

    or, b) An ISFP who is very outgoing and spends MUCH more time in the company of others than most ISFPs; and while I thrive more off of being with people I truly like (the few and far between) than being alone, I get drained around those I don't like.

    A little help, please?

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    Tell us a little about yourself. I for one am a ISFp-Fe, and I see where you might be confused.

    Do you seem to enjoy talking, talking, talking? Does it seem that you can "read" people's faces for emotions?
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    MBTI != socionics.

    read socionics.us.

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    MBTI != socionics.

    read socionics.us.

    Right, I was thinking she should read the ESFp and ISFp pages of wikisocion so she could check the ego descriptions.

    ESFp

    ISFp
    D-SEI 9w1

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    Alright... I'm either an ISFp or an ESFp, sorry about the capitals. I know they're not the same, and it's a very bad habit I have capitalizing them anyway.

    Looked up subtypes for a few hours after your responses and I couldn't find any clean-cut descriptions of the two or an analysis of specific differences, which I was kind of hoping for seeing how confused I was in the first place.

    I've always typed as E before, and so I'm thinking that I'm a sensory ESFp. I'll keep analyzing as I go and try to (dis)confirm this. Thanks for the help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charismatik View Post
    Looked up subtypes for a few hours after your responses and I couldn't find any clean-cut descriptions of the two or an analysis of specific differences, which I was kind of hoping for seeing how confused I was in the first place.

    subtypes are not important to socionics theory. forget about them. seriously; they serve very little purpose other than to allow Ti idiots a way to demonstrate that they have no idea what they're talking about.

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    Hmm, it seems like you're viewing introversion/extroversion as a dichotomy independent of functions, like in MBTI. However, a lot of ISFps test as "extroverted" since they have extraverted feeling in their ego block, so you shouldn't base your type off of this.

    ISFp and ESFp have completely different quadra values and valued functions. Check out the quadra descriptions here and see which one you relate to more:

    Alpha Quadra
    Gamma Quadra

    Might also help a lot to look up which functions you prefer if you haven't already...
    delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sabo View Post
    Hmm, it seems like you're viewing introversion/extroversion as a dichotomy independent of functions, like in MBTI. However, a lot of ISFps test as "extroverted" since they have extraverted feeling in their ego block, so you shouldn't base your type off of this.

    ISFp and ESFp have completely different quadra values and valued functions. Check out the quadra descriptions here and see which one you relate to more:

    Alpha Quadra
    Gamma Quadra

    Might also help a lot to look up which functions you prefer if you haven't already...
    Yea, I've taken the Jung test, and I came out as a moderately expressed extrovert, ESFp.

    oh yeah, that was perfect, the quadra description.
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    Charismatik, Alpha and Gamma are opposing quadras. The former values Fe/Ti and Si/Ne; the latter Te/Fi and Se/Ni. SEE and SEI are different types in the following way. I'll use the method I described to my dad to tell him how he was incompatible with my mum (he's an IEI, my mum's an IEE)

    Both SEE (ESFp) and SEI (ISFp) are good at Si, Se, Fi and Fe, and bad at Te, Ti, Ne and Ni. However, what SEE values SEI doesn't (Se and Fi), and what SEI values, SEE doesn't (Si and Fe). On top of this, while the SEE is bad with Te, Ti, Ne and Ni, they still value Ni and Te (as they are a part of a Ni/Se, Te/Fi valuing quadra). SEI does not value Ni and Te (it is part of Ne/Si Fe/Ti valuing quadra), wheras SEE does. Instead, SEI values what SEE does not; Ne and Ti. Hence, SEEs search for someone who is good in Ni and Te when looking for a partner i.e. an ILI (INTp) and SEIs search for someone who is good in what they value - Ne and Ti - when doing the same thing i.e. an ILE (ENTp) is a perfect match for an SEI.

    Read the link niffweed posted. It is the best source for socionics learning.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Read about the quadrants, and it helped a little; and I think I'm still leaning towards ESFp.

    Here's a question: is it possible that I'm in the middle of transitioning? I've been a solid ESTp for most of my life, but about a year ago I experienced something that caused a big change in the way I behave and the way I view things. Analyzing how that's affected me, it could make sense that I'm changing to ISFp. I'm also concerned about possibly being thrown off by taking situations into account that happened before this, and using them to determine me an ESFp when in reality, I may not fit that type at all anymore.

    I'm going to continue to consider this with an emphasis on more recent thoughts and behaviors, and see if I notice any strong patterns one way or the other. I believe I'm either transitioning or recently transitioned with past events throwing me off; any insights on this possibility?

    And thanks again for everyone's help!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charismatik View Post
    Read about the quadrants, and it helped a little; and I think I'm still leaning towards ESFp.

    Here's a question: is it possible that I'm in the middle of transitioning? I've been a solid ESTp for most of my life, but about a year ago I experienced something that caused a big change in the way I behave and the way I view things. Analyzing how that's affected me, it could make sense that I'm changing to ISFp. I'm also concerned about possibly being thrown off by taking situations into account that happened before this, and using them to determine me an ESFp when in reality, I may not fit that type at all anymore.

    I'm going to continue to consider this with an emphasis on more recent thoughts and behaviors, and see if I notice any strong patterns one way or the other. I believe I'm either transitioning or recently transitioned with past events throwing me off; any insights on this possibility?

    And thanks again for everyone's help!
    Depends who you ask -- most socionists will say that your type can't change, but some would challenge that. No one knows for sure.

    Regardless, remember that socionics is not about external personality traits and behavior -- although your type can impact those. Socionics deals with internal thought processes, motivations, etc. This is why typing yourself by looking at descriptions is probably not the best way of finding your type, and why learning about the different functions is a better way to go.

    Out of curiosity, does either of these descriptions sounds like you more than the other:

    A strong ability to recognise internal physical states in themselves and others, to understand how these states are reached, and to recreate and avoid these physical states.

    Individuals who possess Si as a base function are drawn to situations that satisfy their inner physical experience. Whenever Si base function individuals are taking part in something that involves recognising, recreating, or analyzing physical states, they feel a great deal of personal power and enthusiasm.

    The avoidance of discomfort is one of the primary motivations of these types. Feelings of internal discomfort can arise from a tense psychological atmosphere, working too hard and sapping the body's resources, being pressured by other people or by numerous "things to do," and from unsatiated or oversatiated physical needs. These types tend to quickly recognize and be quite vocal about discomfort that arises and either take clever measures to dissipate it or simply get out of whatever is bothering them. They are very receptive to other people sharing feelings of discomfort with them and can help alleviate the tension and offer good solutions.

    Where as Se types focus on the desires of others and makes a judgment on what is correct to desire based on that information, Si types spend less time concentrating on the wants of others and follow their own innate desires. This is why Si types can be known to follow their own excetric hobbies and interest (along with Ne), comforts and needs without any concern for anyone or anything else (along with a weak emphasis on Ni).
    vs...

    The individual feels at home among people who are actively doing something and interacting with each other directly (visibly), and is able to organize people, move them around as necessary, and guide them in achieving a specific goal. He or she likes obedience and even subservience in others, since it allows him to "make things happen" more effectively.

    He is keenly aware of territorial conflicts and confrontational behavior occurring around him. He very quickly becomes confrontational when others try to make him move or get him to do something in an aggressive or confrontational way. He quickly recognizes when people are trying to get each other to do something or are trying to organize him for some purpose. He also spontaneously uses aggression to achieve his own goals.

    He wants to make all decisions himself about what he will do, wear, eat, look like, etc., and resents any attempts by others to make these decisions for him. However, he is willing to make use of other peoples' ideas, advice, and creativity, as long as he plays the most visible role.

    He enjoys testing his will in challenging situations and views life as a sort of obstacle course, full of adversity and challenges, that must be weathered and conquered.
    And does either of these descriptions sound more like you than the other:

    The individual has great respect and admiration for people who are always pursuing something new and different and are not tied down to material things. He easily becomes attached to people who believe in his potential and praise him for his unique skills.

    The person rarely emphasizes his talents, unique experience, or singularity publicly, but prefers to seem like "your average guy" so that others can relate to him easily. However, uniqueness and talent are often hidden under the surface and come out in close personal relationships. These types are sensitive about their talents and uniqueness because so often uniqueness creates distance between people rather than closeness. These types dream of having their uniqueness recognized, welcomed, and fostered by a close group, but "just in case" avoid emphasizing their uniqueness and talents in new or large group situations.
    vs...

    The individual is attracted to people who are confident in their ability to evaluate where present trends are leading and to choose the opportune moment to initiate action, or to refrain from it. The individual is impulsive but at the same time desiring of not going too far in his impulsiveness and unsure of his own ability in this area, so people who are confident on how far to go and when to stop are admired and their company is desired. The individual also longs for a sense of greater meaning in his life beyond the immediately physical and enjoys the company of people who can show him the light in that area.
    Identifying more with one of them in the first pair and/or one of them in the second pair could be a strong indication as to your type.
    delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Charismatik View Post
    Read about the quadrants, and it helped a little; and I think I'm still leaning towards ESFp.

    Here's a question: is it possible that I'm in the middle of transitioning? I've been a solid ESTp for most of my life, but about a year ago I experienced something that caused a big change in the way I behave and the way I view things. Analyzing how that's affected me, it could make sense that I'm changing to ISFp. I'm also concerned about possibly being thrown off by taking situations into account that happened before this, and using them to determine me an ESFp when in reality, I may not fit that type at all anymore.

    I'm going to continue to consider this with an emphasis on more recent thoughts and behaviors, and see if I notice any strong patterns one way or the other. I believe I'm either transitioning or recently transitioned with past events throwing me off; any insights on this possibility?

    And thanks again for everyone's help!
    What? So you went from SLE to SEI to SEE? I don't think so.

    I can understand your being confused between SEI and SEE, but that can be remedied. Not SLE though. Unless this was simply a grammatical error, in which case I retract my statement.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Charismatic, you might want to start over from scratch and not assume any type for yourself before you figure out more about the functions.

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    You sound SEE to me.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    What? So you went from SLE to SEI to SEE? I don't think so.

    I can understand your being confused between SEI and SEE, but that can be remedied. Not SLE though. Unless this was simply a grammatical error, in which case I retract my statement.
    ... yes, wow, I apologize, that was a grammatical error. I've always typed as ESFp, and I think I may be changing to ISFp.

    Sabo: I realize that socionics is more thought-oriented than behavior-oriented, and that's why I'm unsure about the change. It may be that I was not objective enough in my introversion before and that I was always an ISFp, that I am the less-party-girlesque subtype of ESFp, or that I've changed. And another question on changing; the most significant change in me was a new way of looking at subjectivity and objectivity (which happens to be an E/I trait, I believe). Could this new viewpoint have switched me over, or does that sound too unlikely?

    Thanks for posting those descriptions, by the way! In the first set, the first description really rang true for me- the only difference being that I don't often 'avoid' uncomfortable states, I usually jump in headfirst (in a very ESFp manner) and try to fix them. More often than not I can keep at it until I succeed, but I do retreat if I find the situation unfixable. However, the first and last paragraphs of the second description in the first set were also very accurate.

    I think this is where most of my trouble lies: I don't prefer being center stage like ESFps or appearing to be "average" like ISFps. My ideal place in a group or organization would be a significant, known position, rather high up but not at the very top. I'm a classic VP or even Public Relations girl. I like people knowing who I am and being able to pick me out as different or unique, but I'm never the center of attention at parties.

    That being said, I tend to happily take on significant leadership roles in almost everything I join, and proceed to lead with a very ESFp style. I can be around others without getting cranky almost constantly when doing something I like or believe in, but when I have downtime I usually think to spend it alone before considering seeing what friends are up to.

    Does this help?

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    I like people knowing who I am and being able to pick me out as different or unique, but I'm never the center of attention at parties.
    So you have a deep feeling inside to be different?
    Last edited by Mediator Kam; 01-01-2008 at 06:35 PM.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Charismatik View Post
    ... yes, wow, I apologize, that was a grammatical error. I've always typed as ESFp, and I think I may be changing to ISFp.

    Sabo: I realize that socionics is more thought-oriented than behavior-oriented, and that's why I'm unsure about the change. It may be that I was not objective enough in my introversion before and that I was always an ISFp, that I am the less-party-girlesque subtype of ESFp, or that I've changed. And another question on changing; the most significant change in me was a new way of looking at subjectivity and objectivity (which happens to be an E/I trait, I believe). Could this new viewpoint have switched me over, or does that sound too unlikely?

    Thanks for posting those descriptions, by the way! In the first set, the first description really rang true for me- the only difference being that I don't often 'avoid' uncomfortable states, I usually jump in headfirst (in a very ESFp manner) and try to fix them. More often than not I can keep at it until I succeed, but I do retreat if I find the situation unfixable. However, the first and last paragraphs of the second description in the first set were also very accurate.

    I think this is where most of my trouble lies: I don't prefer being center stage like ESFps or appearing to be "average" like ISFps. My ideal place in a group or organization would be a significant, known position, rather high up but not at the very top. I'm a classic VP or even Public Relations girl. I like people knowing who I am and being able to pick me out as different or unique, but I'm never the center of attention at parties.

    That being said, I tend to happily take on significant leadership roles in almost everything I join, and proceed to lead with a very ESFp style. I can be around others without getting cranky almost constantly when doing something I like or believe in, but when I have downtime I usually think to spend it alone before considering seeing what friends are up to.

    Does this help?
    Charismatik, I'm afraid to say, you're still looking at socionics from a dichotomical point of view rather than a functional point of view, meaning your views are too tainted by MBTT. Basically, what you're saying is that either you have Si+Fe ego block or Se+Fi ego block, and these two types are VERY different. Compare the user bionicgoat (an SEI (ISFp)) with liveandletlive (an SEE (ESFp). You need to spend some time looking at wikisocion.org's descriptions of SEE and SEI to decide who you really are. I'd guess that you're apt in Se, Si, Fe and Fi, but you have to decide what you value. Either you value Se and Fi or Si and Fe.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Charismatik, I'm afraid to say, you're still looking at socionics from a dichotomical point of view rather than a functional point of view, meaning your views are too tainted by MBTT. Basically, what you're saying is that either you have Si+Fe ego block or Se+Fi ego block, and these two types are VERY different. Compare the user bionicgoat (an SEI (ISFp)) with liveandletlive (an SEE (ESFp). You need to spend some time looking at wikisocion.org's descriptions of SEE and SEI to decide who you really are. I'd guess that you're apt in Se, Si, Fe and Fi, but you have to decide what you value. Either you value Se and Fi or Si and Fe.
    Well, she read them, but she's still focusing on MBTT. Hell, I still use a mix of MBTT/Socionic defintions in my daily life, and use full Socionics when I want to focus in more on functional definitions/model A because they are so in-depth. You can tell me I'm wrong 100 times over and curse me for even mentioning MBTT, but I'm still going to look at it like this.

    Yes, Si+Fe and Se+Fi are very different, but the behaviors that arise from them are similar, and Charismatik is focusing on behaviors, which MBTT is all about. Maybe it's a SF focus on personal relations/behaviors that draws us to MBTT and not the totally abstract ideas of Socionics. Yeah Socionics is 50x better, no contest there, but maybe my brain can't handle it xD.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    So you have a deep feeling inside to be different?
    Yes, and I always have. When I was younger I used to struggle to differentiate "what I wanted to do" versus "what everyone else was NOT doing". It's the reason I played the viola instead of the violin in middle school, for instance, and probably why I was attracted to more obscure sports.

    I know I'm a little MBTT-centric, but I do favor a mix like Kamangir said and find the socionics side a little harder to grasp. I find, on the purely socionic side, I see myself in multiple descriptions more easily and have a harder time identifying with just one. I was hoping that elaborating on the source of my confusion might unlock something relevant in someone's mind, as I'm a little stuck where I am right now.

    I'll keep reading everything I can find, but any more insights would be greatly appreciated!

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    hmm, I have that strong feeling to be different than everybody else too, and I struggle with it because it usually ends up as me getting the worse end of it

    Anyway, if you struggle with multiple types, then we will need to focus on behaviors rather than function definitions, because pure abstract socionics doesn't seem to be helping much.
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    I don't know much about VI, but would it help at all to post a picture or two?

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    VI is by no means an exact art, but please, go ahead. Some people here are skilled at it.
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    VI is a complete waste of time.

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    Hmm... what d'you get on these two tests? Each one will take 1 or 2 minutes tops...

    http://www.socionics.us/tests/1/0.htm
    http://www.people.iup.edu/rdxm/v6/ptest_intro.htm

    Tests aren't the most accurate way of determining type, but they can help in deciding between two completely different types like ISFp and ESFp.
    delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post

    Anyway, if you struggle with multiple types, then we will need to focus on behaviors rather than function definitions, because pure abstract socionics doesn't seem to be helping much.
    exactly wtf does that mean??

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    idk, attempting to understand where Charasmatik is coming from, which is a hell of a lot more than you ever do.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    idk, attempting to understand where Charasmatik is coming from, which is a hell of a lot more than you ever do.
    charismatik is coming from not very much of a background in MBTI. she's sort of looking in the right places to find the information himself/herself.

    i see no basis whatsoever for either of your last two comments.

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    I could say that I see no basis in you living, but that is inappropriately crass.
    I also thought you couldn't understand English.

    Yes, she's looking in the right places to find the information, but we cannot expect to convert her entirely to socionics in 1-2 days, or a week for that matter. Nor can we focus directly on socionics, because as we do, she continues to pull away into MBTT mode. I'd rather be accomodating to her MBTT side, because I am familar with its' workings, and it would be easier on her.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    I could say that I see no basis in you living, but that is inappropriately crass.
    I also thought you couldn't understand English.

    Yes, she's looking in the right places to find the information, but we cannot expect to convert her entirely to socionics in 1-2 days, or a week for that matter. Nor can we focus directly on socionics, because as we do, she continues to pull away into MBTT mode. I'd rather be accomodating to her MBTT side, because I am familar with its' workings, and it would be easier on her.
    and would additionally provide him/her with yet more bad information, thus inhibiting her ability to understand what information is socionically relevant and what is not and ultimately delaying any real understanding.

    i have no problem anyway with you giving her advice on where to look (besides the obvious fact that i don't think you're competent). however, you still haven't answered my question, which pertained to what the hell you mean by the differences between "abstract socionics" and "behavioral socionics."

  30. #30
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    and would additionally provide him/her with yet more bad information, thus inhibiting her ability to understand what information is socionically relevant and what is not.
    You're free to give the best information in the world man, but it seems that you enjoy to ridicule and otherwise denegrate any view that does not conform to your "inane" view of Socionics. Socionics is psychology, psychology is not even close to being an exact art, so There can be many different views of a behavior. Therefore I am free to construe any information he/she gives us as well as you can.

    What I consider "abstract socionics" and "behavioral socionics" is(obviously I'm wrong ):

    "abstract socionics": Reinin dichotomies such as democratic, merry. +/-, determining VI from statues, telling if music exudes Fe, Ne, etc. Once you get into detailed explanations of PoLR hits, I get kinda confused.

    "behavioral socionics": intertype relations, how the model A works in real life scenarios, especially how the IM functions work in each of the blocks, how it affects people's behavior, and understanding why a person would act in set scenarios.

    Of course, this is really subjective and stupid. You probably enjoy everything socionics has to offer, so this list is worthless to you.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    You're free to give the best information in the world man, but it seems that you enjoy to ridicule and otherwise denegrate any view that does not conform to your "inane" view of Socionics. Socionics is psychology, psychology is not even close to being an exact art, so There can be many different views of a behavior. Therefore I am free to construe any information he/she gives us as well as you can.
    yes, you are. it doesn't mean i have to agree with you, and it doesn't mean i can't criticize you if you know nothing.

    What I consider "abstract socionics" and "behavioral socionics" is(obviously I'm wrong ):

    "abstract socionics": Reinin dichotomies such as democratic, merry. +/-, determining VI from statues, telling if music exudes Fe, Ne, etc. Once you get into detailed explanations of PoLR hits, I get kinda confused.

    "behavioral socionics": intertype relations, how the model A works in real life scenarios, especially how the IM functions work in each of the blocks, how it affects people's behavior, and understanding why a person would act in set scenarios.

    Of course, this is really subjective and stupid. You probably enjoy everything socionics has to offer, so this list is worthless to you.
    actually, though your terminology is rather strange, you hit it right on the dime here. everything you listed under abstract socionics i consider a total waste of time, and everything you listed under behavioral socionics i consider relevant.

  32. #32
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    ok cool.

    carry on niff.
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  33. #33
    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    Yes, Si+Fe and Se+Fi are very different, but the behaviors that arise from them are similar, and Charismatik is focusing on behaviors, which MBTT is all about.
    No. Keirsey is about observable behaviours. MBTT is about thought processes.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    No. Keirsey is about observable behaviours. MBTT is about thought processes.
    i won't even bother.

  35. #35
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    I've been doing a lot of reflecting and such, and getting the opinions of other socionics-knowledgeable people I know in real life... and I'm leaning more confidently towards ISFp. I'm going to keep paying attention, though, until I've proved this or disproved this to myself, because I'm not entirely certain.

    Thank you again to everyone for your input, and I also really appreciate your accomodating my MBTI streak. I'm working on it!

  36. #36
    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    congrats, if you are indeed SEI, welcome to the fold.

    It's great here.
    Last edited by Mediator Kam; 01-05-2008 at 04:18 AM. Reason: lolol
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

  37. #37
    Charismatik's Avatar
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    Thanks for the warm welcome and again for the help, I really appreciate it!

    And I can tell, I'm loving it here already.

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