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Thread: Benazir Bhutto

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    Question Benazir Bhutto

    Any thoughts?





    Last edited by silke; 06-19-2014 at 12:36 AM. Reason: updated links
    Lefty
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    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    Yes, I agree with that typing. Also VI's as one. History of corruption (economic and political) but saw herself as a good guy. Very proud and brave, a fighter. Perhaps also a murderer (political assassinations).
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Yes, I agree with that typing. Also VI's as one. History of corruption (economic and political) but saw herself as a good guy. Very proud and brave, a fighter. Perhaps also a murderer (political assassinations).
    Do you see any long history of and use in her? Why do you think she is not and or and or and or whatever else? Nearly every politician of every type have a history of economic and and political corruption and sees themselves as good. Most humans think of themselves as good ...even the best type of person there is. I am not sure that being brave and proud and a fighter makes her an ENFj. There are other types who have these qualities in more abundance than an ENFj perhaps. Also, in Pakistan and many other countries the quickest way to discredit your opponent is to accuse them of fraud. This woman was never even convicted of fraud. I am really suspicious of all these typings of people as ENFjs on the forum, it is like ENFjs are more powerful, famous and more prevalent than every other type or something.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan View Post
    Do you see any long history of and use in her? Why do you think she is not and or and or and or whatever else? Nearly every politician of every type have a history of economic and and political corruption and sees themselves as good. Most humans think of themselves as good ...even the best type of person there is. I am not sure that being brave and proud and a fighter makes her an ENFj. There are other types who have these qualities in more abundance than an ENFj perhaps. Also, in Pakistan and many other countries the quickest way to discredit your oponent is to accuse them of fraud. This woman was never even convicted of fraud. I am really suspicious of all these typings of people as ENFjs on the forum, it is like ENFjs are more powerful, famous and more prevalent than every other type or something.
    What you pointed out reminded me of an article in the WSJ that I read a couple days ago. It highlighted how the military rulers ran the show in Pakistan for the longest time, how they were responsible for hanging her father and accusing her government of mismanagement and corruption (leading to her self exile). Seems similar to what happened to Thaksin earlier this year by the military in Thailand (the charges of corruption.)

    I personally don't know much about her other than what I've been reading in the papers lately, just wanted to agree on that point of fraud.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    on russian web at socioniko.net there is an article on that a lot of enfjs are "social preachers".
    Yes, but that does not mean that all "social preachers" are ENFjs or even that all ENFjs are "social preachers". It is debatable whether Bhutto is even a "social preacher" as such.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    The consensus (of one) on Socionix seems to be Delta extravert. I'm actually inclined to agree with that. She seemed more Si>Se, IMO.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    yes? chillout lol

    i don't even know who is Bhutto. i'm just saying 'cos it might help the discussion.
    lol, I see.

    P.S sorry, I do not know your type,from just this one line I get the [strong]feeling I am communicating with an ISFp, correct?
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan View Post
    lol, I see.

    P.S sorry, I do not know your type,from just this one line I get the [strong]feeling I am communicating with an ISFp, correct?
    Oh dear God, you did NOT just ask what dee's type was. :wink: (HintHint.)
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    Oh dear God, you did NOT just ask what dee's type was. :wink: (HintHint.)
    Baby, thanks for attempting to deliver me from ignorance. In my somewhat flimsy defence, I do not always read those type threads but I did see it after.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Yeah I don't really read them either. Especially when they get as long as that. There's just a few people here who are "controversial" whose type discussions never end. Ever.
    "How could we forget those ancient myths that stand at the beginning of all races, the myths about dragons that at the last moment are transformed into princesses? Perhaps all the dragons in our lives are princesses who are only waiting to see us act, just once, with beauty and courage. Perhaps everything that frightens us is, in its deepest essence, something helpless that wants our love."
    -- Rainer Maria Rilke, Letters to a Young Poet

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    Yeah I don't really read them either. Especially when they get as long as that. There's just a few people here who are "controversial" whose type discussions never end. Ever.
    True, I think I might even have clicked on that thread before today as the poll structure looked familar. Here's hoping a type will be found for all of them pretty soon.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Megan View Post
    Do you see any long history of and use in her? Why do you think she is not and or and or and or whatever else? Nearly every politician of every type have a history of economic and and political corruption and sees themselves as good. Most humans think of themselves as good ...even the best type of person there is. I am not sure that being brave and proud and a fighter makes her an ENFj. There are other types who have these qualities in more abundance than an ENFj perhaps. Also, in Pakistan and many other countries the quickest way to discredit your opponent is to accuse them of fraud. This woman was never even convicted of fraud. I am really suspicious of all these typings of people as ENFjs on the forum, it is like ENFjs are more powerful, famous and more prevalent than every other type or something.
    Yawn. Obviously the typing was in shorthand and a shot from the hip. I do see your point about there being an abundance of ENFj typings on the forums, but then again it is entirely possible that people here put up an abundance of ENFj types for us to type isn't there. I disagree there is an agenda to make ENFj's typings to inflate the importance of ENFj's.

    (As an aside on the Bhutto argument: Pakistan is incredibly corrupt, and Bhutto was part of that for a long time. Bhutto's niece is convinced Bhutto had her own brother murdered (the niece's father).

    The problem with socionics typings is that they are so subjective. Even the most respected experts come up with a number of different type suggestions for the same individuals, even in cases where the biographies of the person typed is well known and researched, or a contemporary famous person. It gets a bit silly when a famous person gets say 5 different type suggestions, by 5 different experts, when there are 16 types to chose from in socionics.

    I personally don't use +/- Se, Ne, Fi etc mathematics much when I type, let those who are comfortable with that method do so. I prefer to go with feel, patterns, observed behaviours and character traits, and experience etc, when I type. That is why I like to type a lot here, I see it as training to gain more experience, and if somebody else comes up with a more accurate typing so much the better. (And it can be quiet and boring here when people don't post much so I might type just to get the ball rolling )
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    Default Benazir Bhutto: Type and Analysis

    VI: far off eyes which nonetheless meet her speakers. Her eyes are constantly shifting to meet her interlocutor's.

    What follows is a critique of various analyses between experts on who Bhutto was and how she lived. Special attention is given to the IM elements various observations would appear to represent.

    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/south_asia/7165255.stm
    "Bhutto successors face tough challenge"
    With her charisma and long political experience, Ms Bhutto had evolved into a shrewd negotiator with a sharp sense of timing.
    Strong TeNi

    Analysts credit her with negotiating her way back into the country after an eight-year-long exile, and building up an impressive election campaign - all by exploiting the needs of the military rulers as well as her former political rivals.
    Use of Fi to assist Te.

    [...] the PPP leadership would have more time to focus on the "unfinished agenda" of Ms Bhutto, forcing the government to give in to PPP demands for fair elections.
    +Ni


    http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/asiapcf/12/30/
    plate.bhutto.commentary/index.html

    This dynastic dame of Muslim Pakistan was notoriously high-handed, dismissive of contradictions, endlessly content to be surrounded by rear-kissing acolytes, power-driven, short-tempered, snakily self-serving and a creature who required considerable creature comfort in the elegance department.
    power-driven = Se HA

    She would have denied this all, probably. She would say there was no truth to the corruption cases pending against her and her husband in Switzerland, Spain and Britain; she denied knowing anything about the beyond-opulent diamond necklace that rests in a bank box paid for by her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, himself having served time for corruption; and she would have railed as calumny the widespread charges that she and her family over the years had raked in enough money stored in Switzerland from looting Pakistan that they were close to being able to afford to purchase their own country.

    Whatever the truth of all these charges, this child princess of Pakistan -- she was only 35 when she first became prime minister -- was obviously not a woman of cheap tastes. As the young twig is bent, so grows the tree: the early education at Lady Jennings Nursery School in Karachi, the college degree from Harvard, further study at Oxford.

    There was the apartment in the Barbican section of London, the occasional family reunion in the French Riviera, the lavish family home in an up-market section of Dubai, and the sense -- as the British-Pakistani historian and author Tariq Ali has memorably put it -- that Benazir viewed her Pakistan Peoples Party (PPP) as her personal "family heirloom."
    Her upbringing appears to have set her Se set point very high... (an example of the effect of conditioning on IM, it would appear) And from above, we concluded her Ni was positive, therefore her +Se was positive, too. She had an insatiable thirst for power and wealth, one that had been raised far above the norm.

    Interesting note about her party: she appears to have seen it as an object, something which could be energized. I'll talk more about this in the link at the end of this post. (some of my analysis is not suitable for general discussion.)

    [/quote]
    For inside the box of a puzzle that was Mrs. Bhutto was the essence of Pakistan, with all its irresistible attractions and off-putting contradictions.
    [/quote]

    Fi inside of Te.

    Please note that the shiny gift box from her came with a lock, but when we took it home, we found that it had no key. Somehow we jiggered it open, but found nothing inside. But the more we -- the people, the journalists, the historians -- pry open the glistening Benazir box, the more we will say that there was a whole lot there, contradictions and all.
    N forgets the key... Se says "I've given you this and that's enough. The rest is mine."

    The only type consistent with the preceding observations is ENTj.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-01-2008 at 12:01 PM.

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    Hmm, politicians are tricky to type. What is the real person and what is the created and trained and coached political persona? What is beyond the media hype and spin?

    I remember reading an article in the Guardian where Bhutto said she was having dinner with her family and friends, when one day out of nowhere Jack Straw (the British cabinet minister) called her and suddenly she was back in from the cold. She was an political outcast, in exile, with no hope of ever returning to Pakistan and then suddenly the Brits/US rolled out the red carpet for her return.

    I am not saying that the logic behind your typing is incorrect. I am just not sure about your sources. With junk sources it is difficult not to end up with a junk typing.
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    Assume that an INTj has done their homework before making their assertion.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Assume that an INTj has done their homework before making their assertion.
    Meh, appeal to INTj authority
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Obviously the typing was in shorthand and a shot from the hip. I do see your point about there being an abundance of ENFj typings on the forums, but then again it is entirely possible that people here put up an abundance of ENFj types for us to type isn't there. I disagree there is an agenda to make ENFj's typings to inflate the importance of ENFj's.
    Somehow I doubt that more ENFjs are put up here for V.I than any other type. Why would that be? I have even seen ISTps get typed as ENFj here.


    (As an aside on the Bhutto argument: Pakistan is incredibly corrupt, and Bhutto was part of that for a long time. Bhutto's niece is convinced Bhutto had her own brother murdered (the niece's father).
    That is merely hearsay and nothing was proven against Bhutto herself. While it is possible that she might have done corrupt things, that is not known to any reasonable degree beyond speculation and again she was not convicted of anything.

    The problem with socionics typings is that they are so subjective. Even the most respected experts come up with a number of different type suggestions for the same individuals, even in cases where the biographies of the person typed is well known and researched, or a contemporary famous person. It gets a bit silly when a famous person gets say 5 different type suggestions, by 5 different experts, when there are 16 types to chose from in socionics.
    Well to be honest, I think if one is going to [seriously] make a type suggestion then it is helpful if they produce some reasonable argument to support their ideas if possible. I agree with you that a lot of the typing even by experts who appear to know what they are talking about seems subjective. I doubt that there are even any real experts in socionics.


    I personally don't use +/- Se, Ne, Fi etc mathematics much when I type, let those who are comfortable with that method do so. I prefer to go with feel, patterns, observed behaviours and character traits, and experience etc, when I type. That is why I like to type a lot here, I see it as training to gain more experience, and if somebody else comes up with a more accurate typing so much the better. (And it can be quiet and boring here when people don't post much so I might type just to get the ball rolling )
    O.K so you are typing by your feelings, I will not discount this method, to be a bit cynical it is probably as good a method as any existing ones on the forum. However in this case, you have not outlined any specific patterns or related information based on the woman's life and work and the behavior and character traits you have outlined could be attributed to several other types and it is not clear why you have attributed these traits to one particular type. I took your post kinda seriously mainly because of the political significance of the person being typed but in light of what you are now saying I guess I should have seen it as more you just trying to alleviate boredom and getting the ball rolling. I cannot really tell how these things are meant to be taken.
    Socionics: XNFx
    MBTI: INFJ

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    Quote Originally Posted by Wittmont View Post
    Meh, appeal to INTj authority
    Or, you can do the homework yourself.

    You can do it here:
    http://gos.sbc.edu/b/bhutto.html

    Really, she's ENTj.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Baby View Post
    Yeah I don't really read them either. Especially when they get as long as that. There's just a few people here who are "controversial" whose type discussions never end. Ever.
    why should type discussion end?
    Lefty
    ENFJ

    "I'm Sick of Old Men Dreaming Up Wars for Young Men To Die In," George McGovern.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    this at least the third time in just the past two weeks that you've fallen back on either ad-hominem or "to-authority" bologna .

    (dual-type itself may be bologna too, but maybe your self-exertion typing got something right.)

    and while at very first glance i was tempted to criticize Wittmont for suggesting the BBC and CNN may be "junk" - you had better consider that many of your quotes are very editorial, describing subjective personal qualities perhaps more than matters of fact.

    regardless i don't even agree with much of what you've extrapolated from the quotes. your very first quote even: since when is political experience and negotiation necessarily Te? "charisma" wouldn't incline me to think Te base. (although i'm not ruling it out. -- i don't know enough about the woman.)

    Why not give up the attitude and learn something? I'll bet hitta agrees with me. Labcoat, too. And a bunch of others.

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    Quote Originally Posted by ifmd95 View Post
    has labcoat even typed Bhutto yet?

    even if hitta has, does his track record warrent anyone giving a damn - without first scrutinizing his reasoning?

    i'd like to learn more, but at this point i think you're only demonstrating my last point about you falling back on fallacy rather than fact.
    Your position on this is so ridiculous that... I have nothing more to say.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 01-04-2008 at 01:59 PM.

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    nevermind
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    kind of rational, isn't she? so proper and upstanding

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    she and her husband, Asif Ali Zardari, are ENFx - ISTx duals. i can't tell if beta or delta.

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