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Thread: What is this sene of duty and loyalty?

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    Default What is this sense of duty and loyalty?

    Perhaps you can help me understand this. I do not.

    This post is about a sense of duty, or a sense of loyalty, or a sense of serving - and I don't understand what it stems from. It was always there, and I see how in some types it comes naturally from the environment around them. But I don't know how to address it. Maybe it is because I do not have much cultural influence, or "environmental tradition", that I do not know how to address this issue.

    But it is still there. When I go down to core motivations, it is there.
    (I am realizing that I am terrible at introspection)


    I just don't understand why it is such a big deal for me. Is it just an SJ thing?
    I've seen various SJs dedicated to things in different ways - is it sort of just a part of their psychological make up?

    I just want to understand more about this sort of thing.
    Last edited by UDP; 12-24-2007 at 11:55 PM. Reason: spelled "sense" incorrectly in title
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    The Troll Slayer Hitta's Avatar
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    +Se
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    *coughLSIcough*

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    LOL yeah I'd say Se. I was going to say ISFj, but Gilly's suggestion works too.
    It ain't what you don't know that gets you into trouble. It's what you know for sure that just ain't so.
    -Mark Twain


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    Why would this be one 'type' over another?

    No one is addressing the real issue.
    Why is this ONLY Se related?

    Real life examples (separated by colons):

    ESFj - dedicated to family and religion. Anchor of the family;
    ISTj - extreme dedication to religion (fundamentalist); extreme dedication to job
    ISFj - dedication family, sacrificing at great lengths for family's well being.; mlitary
    ESTj - dedication to religion & military; dedication to military


    Reading this post and at first glance saying, yup, this just means UDP is Se creative! is pretty shallow. It seems to disregard that I have no internal system, no less one I am trying to "enforce" upon others.

    Why would an ESFj or ESTj not relate to this?
    Last edited by UDP; 12-25-2007 at 12:02 AM. Reason: Ok, I will edit this to remove "SJ"ness so it is more socionically palatable
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Why would this be one 'type' over another?

    No one is addressing the real issue.
    Why is this ONLY Se related?

    Real life examples (separated by colons):

    ESFj - dedicated to family and religion. Anchor of the family;
    ISTj - extreme dedication to religion (fundamentalist); extreme dedication to job
    ISFj - dedication family, sacrificing at great lengths for family's well being.; mlitary
    ESTj - dedication to religion & military; dedication to military


    Reading this post and at first glance saying, yup, this just means UDP is Se creative! is pretty shallow. It seems to disregard that I have no internal system, no less one I am trying to "enforce" upon others.

    Why would an ESFj or ESTj not relate to this?
    There is no time like now to start to introspect. It's good for the soul, imo.

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    from toronto with love ScarlettLux's Avatar
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    *rolls eyes*

    Come on, you're so transparently easy to see through.

    I mean, take a look at your signature describing LSEs ... "something something, sense of duty"

    You clearly wanted us to confirm your LSE-ness and you get mad when others suggest something more sensible.

    But I hope you are not LSI.


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    Quote Originally Posted by ScarlettLux View Post
    *rolls eyes*

    Come on, you're so transparently easy to see through.

    I mean, take a look at your signature describing LSEs ... "something something, sense of duty"

    You clearly wanted us to confirm your LSE-ness and you get mad when others suggest something more sensible.

    But I hope you are not LSI.
    Some kind of personal vendetta? I personally enjoy the presence of LSI's, it's refreshing.
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    I wanted people to explain why the Sj types feel a sense of duty. Or someone to cast light on why/how different types (such as ISTj and ESTj) view duty differently.

    For all the people who think I am trying to come off as a certain way - don't you think I would realize that it is not working by now? Seriously. What is the value of trying to 'appear' to be one type over another? Blah blah blah - we've been here before.

    It seems to be to the point where I cannot ask anything about socionics that is related to my type without all this baggage coming up about what type I am. Look, 3 out of 4 posts in this thread have directly commented on my type - instead of actually discussing the matter.

    You clearly wanted us to confirm your LSE-ness and you get mad when others suggest something more sensible.
    That is not true.
    Your post would imply, what, that I am ESI - if you don't want me to be LSI?

    Why bother. I don't even want to talk about my type - that is why there is frustration. I just want to talk about socionics.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    Some kind of personal vendetta? I personally enjoy the presence of LSI's, it's refreshing.
    I believe I broke her heart; she was set on me being her dual
    Everyone seems to want me to be Se and give them a good spanking.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Why would this be one 'type' over another?

    No one is addressing the real issue.
    Why is this ONLY Se related?

    Real life examples (separated by colons):

    ESFj - dedicated to family and religion. Anchor of the family;
    ISTj - extreme dedication to religion (fundamentalist); extreme dedication to job
    ISFj - dedication family, sacrificing at great lengths for family's well being.; mlitary
    ESTj - dedication to religion & military; dedication to military


    Reading this post and at first glance saying, yup, this just means UDP is Se creative! is pretty shallow. It seems to disregard that I have no internal system, no less one I am trying to "enforce" upon others.

    Why would an ESFj or ESTj not relate to this?
    An Si-creative's "sense of duty" is pretty much limited to taking care of people around them and their dynamic physical needs. But if you're talking about some high goal that you've set for yourself, then that's Ji.

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    Ah, thanks. That differentiation helps somewhat grasp at another sort of difference: what you yourself are comfortable with, and what you need and want help with from other people. The essence of ego block vs superid block
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Perhaps you can help me understand this. I do not.

    This post is about a sense of duty, or a sense of loyalty, or a sense of serving - and I don't understand what it stems from. It was always there, and I see how in some types it comes naturally from the environment around them. But I don't know how to address it. Maybe it is because I do not have much cultural influence, or "environmental tradition", that I do not know how to address this issue.

    But it is still there. When I go down to core motivations, it is there.
    (I am realizing that I am terrible at introspection)


    I just don't understand why it is such a big deal for me. Is it just an SJ thing?
    I've seen various SJs dedicated to things in different ways - is it sort of just a part of their psychological make up?

    I just want to understand more about this sort of thing.

    Perhaps, but it is most definitely an LSE sort of thing. Expanding upon the Si creative function contributing to the caregiver romance style, in acting rationally with being a judging type also protects the rational infantile. I'm new to this forum and do not know you well enough to type you, but Gilly could be correct in that you're an LSI- feeling a sense of loyalty and serving points to the pragmatic club.

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr. michael View Post
    feeling a sense of loyalty and serving points to the pragmatic club.
    Can you explain your reasoning?

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Can you explain your reasoning?
    Sure. I was referring to the STs as serving the NFs' deeper meaning and mission in life. For example, an ISTj's "to believe" hidden agenda.

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    Being LSE, I'd guess you would have a problem with say, letting +Ti manipulativeness guide your sense of profit. (X is manipulable in way B, therefore there is profit to be made by his manipulation.)

    Or at least I think that's what it's about. Does any of this ring a bell for you?

    But if it were about loyalty, that would be +Te trying to influence +Ti. I remember in FFIX Steiner said something to the effect of, "I think the world of you, and I will follow you straight into hell if I must", after Zidane had his "depression walk."

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    Duty to what? Loyalty to what? I don't understand this from your posts.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post

    An Si-creative's "sense of duty" is pretty much limited to taking care of people around them and their dynamic physical needs. But if you're talking about some high goal that you've set for yourself, then that's Ji.
    Yes, I agree with THA.

    As for this (damn quotes):

    Real life examples (separated by colons):

    ESFj - dedicated to family and religion. Anchor of the family;
    ISTj - extreme dedication to religion (fundamentalist); extreme dedication to job
    ISFj - dedication family, sacrificing at great lengths for family's well being.; mlitary
    ESTj - dedication to religion & military; dedication to military
    I don't think they describe essentials to these types at all. You (UDP) are selecting IRL examples that may be correct as to their types, but socionically their drives are different:

    ESFj: the "family dedication" is due to Si-creative as THA said; the religion thing, when true (it is not true for all ESFjs, not at all) is perhaps part of their Ti-dual-seeking. But people are religious for many different socionic reasons.

    ISTj: they are only extremely dedicated to their religion if it fits their sense of "cosmic order", Ni and Ti. Likewise, their dedication to their job is part of a sense of "how things have to be".

    ISFj: what you described is all due to Fi: they have to be like that to be the kind of persons they feel they should be.

    ESTj: what you described is not necessarily true at all. I don't think ESTjs are particulatly dedicated to religion or to the military, as a type; when they are devoted to military service, it's because they're doing what has to be done for accomplishing the job they agreed to.

    And, again, if you talk about some high goal, that is indeed or , like THA said.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    ...been here longer than the fucking monarchy Ezra's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    ESFj - dedicated to family and religion. Anchor of the family;
    ISTj - extreme dedication to religion (fundamentalist); extreme dedication to job
    ISFj - dedication family, sacrificing at great lengths for family's well being.; mlitary
    ESTj - dedication to religion & military; dedication to military
    Right, this is bullshit. LSI have "extreme" dedication? Why extreme? And I'm pretty certain LSIs can be as dedicated to the military as the LSE can. No SJ is any more dedicated to anything than any other is. At least not in this way they're not. Also, you've not explained why you think this e.g. "the LSE is dedicated to the military moreso than the other types because of their Te dominance" or whatever.

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Duty to what? Loyalty to what? I don't understand this from your posts.
    Yeah, this is important, UDP. You have to outline specifics, otherwise you'll get all kind of feedback. For example, is it a loyalty to the people you care about, or is it a duty to something bigger; something more supreme?

    Right, I don't know if you identify with the following, UDP, but as an ESTJ in MBTT and an SJ (Guardian) in Keirsey's version of things, I definitely feel a sense of duty, and I feel others should follow it too. This is duty and loyalty to family, and wanting to help society in some way is also slowly becoming evident i.e. law enforcement; being a lawyer. It's slowly becoming less about the money for me, and more about serving the society that has brought me up, because I think it is a good society, and I want to maintain it.

    This definitely transfers into Beta ST. Definitely. LSIs, with their sense of what should be, and SLEs, who I believe carry a weaker form of concern for duty, are both dutiful.

    It's a desire as well, not just a conscience saying 'remember your duties, Ezra'. Now, as ironic as it sounds, I don't feel a need to do a duty to this country and to the Queen, despite my 'servant' status. So yes, I am in the OTC, but this is not about duty, or training to do my duty. This is about gaining a good reputation for having certain qualities which will help me with my duties later on in life, when I am free to do so (right now, I'm tied down in debt etc.). I certainly feel proud about my ambitions, because I believe they are inherently good, and will benefit others, as well as myself, because it'll make me feel morally, spiritually and physically healthy.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Ezra View Post
    Right, this is bullshit. LSI have "extreme" dedication? Why extreme? And I'm pretty certain LSIs can be as dedicated to the military as the LSE can. No SJ is any more dedicated to anything than any other is. At least not in this way they're not. Also, you've not explained why you think this e.g. "the LSE is dedicated to the military moreso than the other types because of their Te dominance" or whatever.
    This was largely misinterpreted by people it seems - when I listed ESFj, ISTj, ISFj, and ESTj. They were not vague generalizations that were true for everyone of the type, I was just coming up with a few examples I know - it was an attempt to try to get people to talk about them.

    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I don't think they describe essentials to these types at all
    -- you're right, they don't. And they were not supposed to.

    ============


    Yeah, this is important, UDP. You have to outline specifics, otherwise you'll get all kind of feedback. For example, is it a loyalty to the people you care about, or is it a duty to something bigger; something more supreme?
    From my perspective, this is exactly what I wanted the discussion to be about. So asking me about loyalty is kind of backwards - I wanted other people to comment on how the different types go about it. This is in fact the question I am asking to the forum.


    More later
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    cunnilingus epilepsy inducer
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    Why does he need to ask the question and is the information that he presents about himself actually true?

    I'm sorry but I don't get why we try to type people when they look like they're presenting us with dodgy information.

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    UDP's Avatar
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    This thread is not me asking about my type.


    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    (First post of this thread)

    Perhaps you can help me understand this. I do not.
    ....
    I just want to understand more about this sort of thing.

    So, what has been gained from this thread?

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    An Si-creative's "sense of duty" is pretty much limited to taking care of people around them and their dynamic physical needs. But if you're talking about some high goal that you've set for yourself, then that's Ji.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Don't forget the the thehotelambush's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dr. michael View Post
    Sure. I was referring to the STs as serving the NFs' deeper meaning and mission in life. For example, an ISTj's "to believe" hidden agenda.
    That's a pretty weak connection, although STs are concerned with practical implementation for that reason. Also, I wouldn't go based on Ganin's writing if I were you.

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