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Thread: INTj Insight Much Appreciated!

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    Smile INTj Insight Much Appreciated!

    Hey LIIs! You guys are known for discovering rules in which the world is governed and works. I am curious in hearing any of these rules and insights you have found in order to help me learn a little more about my conflict and to perhaps foster my continued self-growth. Thanks!
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    I just shows my LII dad this thread.

    He went into a 10 minute lecture on how we need to fight for our rights and how governments make the oppressed look like the oppressed and vice versa. Nothing comes to you, you need to earn it. You need to stand up and fight for what you believe in. Nothing came to anybody if they didn't work hard for it.

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    i dont have any rules that I work by that I think others don't work by as to how the inanimate world is governed and works, nor have i discovered any. I would say that being TiNe I have "only" required that what I am told is logically consistent or makes sense to me. I think i do expect other people to act a certain way, or courteously, to notice my mood, but I don't think it is impossible for people not to be this way. So that might be a sort of rule that i live by, but it's not discovered by me.

    I just had a conflict with SEE today about this, she says I assume lots of things but this statement is uninformed (by Fe). I don't assume things without any reason, SEE does not think it is necessary to give information, mostly social in nature, so LII must make best guesses in order to function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    I just shows my LII dad this thread.

    He went into a 10 minute lecture on how we need to fight for our rights and how governments make the oppressed look like the oppressed and vice versa. Nothing comes to you, you need to earn it. You need to stand up and fight for what you believe in. Nothing came to anybody if they didn't work hard for it.

    haha- sounds like my LII dad too! gotta love 'em...
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    everything is based around balance/homeostasis - schizoprenia is the best example of this

    everyone's actions are based around cost/benefit of surviving...that may sound kind of simple, but so does hess's law (final enthalpy=each individual enthalpy added up)...I have seen this demonstrated over and over again.....even generosity is an example.

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    NOT everything is based around survival. All actions are done in an attempt to achieve happiness, with everyone's happiness being a little different. It it this we strive for, though: that thing beyond which to strive would be nothing, that thing we want for the sake of wanting, that thing that is ineffable but unmistakeable. It is not for some sort of evolutionary end(in practice this is what it achieves, but it is not what it is for emotionally), but rather for emotional satisfaction. Survival has nothing to do with why I'm posting this message right now.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Your DNA is mine. Mediator Kam's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Survival has nothing to do with why I'm posting this message right now.
    I have lost all respect for you as a human being.

    //niffmoment

    An LII never smiles, never laughs. Only if it's reallyyyy funny.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    I have lost all respect for you as a human being.

    //niffmoment

    An LII never smiles, never laughs. Only if it's reallyyyy funny.


    Maybe hardcore Ti ones, but, LIIs I know are always looking for jokes, or things to laugh at, or boosts to the mood. They can give way to the giggles now and then.
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    Maybe hardcore Ti ones, but, LIIs I know are always looking for jokes, or things to laugh at, or boosts to the mood. They can give way to the giggles now and then.
    Sorry, I think you're right. My dad must be hardcore Ti then.
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    Maybe he's just worn and old. You do laugh less as you age. A five year-old child laughs 500 times a day on average.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic View Post
    Maybe he's just worn and old. You do laugh less as you age. A five year-old child laughs 500 times a day on average.
    Maybe, now that you say that, he did a lot of "funny" stuff in the military and still laughs about things his compatriots did, but he's 56 now, lol.

    But damn, he is wise. I wish I was half as smart as him.
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    maybe he needs a good ESE in his life?
    Pre-2013 post are written with incomplete understanding.

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    Quote Originally Posted by UDP View Post
    maybe he needs a good ESE in his life?
    He has a ESI to be honest. My parents are old-fashioned, so it's good they are both introverts.
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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    NOT everything is based around survival. All actions are done in an attempt to achieve happiness, with everyone's happiness being a little different. It it this we strive for, though: that thing beyond which to strive would be nothing, that thing we want for the sake of wanting, that thing that is ineffable but unmistakeable. It is not for some sort of evolutionary end(in practice this is what it achieves, but it is not what it is for emotionally), but rather for emotional satisfaction. Survival has nothing to do with why I'm posting this message right now.
    happiness is basically surviving to the fullest. You actually are posting this message out of survival because it illustrates your ideas, thus reassuring your perception of the universe and giving you the feeling that other people are listening, making you valuable and thus increasing your survival.

    put it this way: you can't be happy if you're dead. if I'm stranded on an island and I'm offered food or sex, I'm taking food, although sex would make me "happier", the way you're speaking of it.

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    No. I've tried to kill myself before and totally and fully wanted to die.

    "happiness is basically surviving to the fullest. You actually are posting this message out of survival because it illustrates your ideas, thus reassuring your perception of the universe and giving you the feeling that other people are listening, making you valuable and thus increasing your survival."

    Makes complete sense until you confuse the result of "increasing my survival" with desiring to increase my survival. I mean, the content isn't right(because that's not why I posted my message), but the logic is flawless up until that point.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    happiness is basically surviving to the fullest. You actually are posting this message out of survival because it illustrates your ideas, thus reassuring your perception of the universe and giving you the feeling that other people are listening, making you valuable and thus increasing your survival.
    That doesn't make any sense. How does that increase one's chances of survival? Perhaps the survival of one's ideas, in the memetic sense.

    put it this way: you can't be happy if you're dead.
    True, but in postmodern society death is among the least of our worries. The fact that you have to resort to a stranded-on-an-island metaphor demonstrates this.

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    I think there are a lot of conditions that we instinctively hold to be equal to death compared to certain more beneficial states.

    Take for example the state of living on ones own without friends, family or significant other; a state we instinctively think of as 'social death'.

    While one 'part' of us at any moment in time must always be alive, certain other parts of us may at times lay dormant. Our desire being to fully realize our strengths, I think we are 'programmed' to seek out conditions in which as many parts of us are alive and active as possible.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Makes complete sense until you confuse the result of "increasing my survival" with desiring to increase my survival. I mean, the content isn't right(because that's not why I posted my message), but the logic is flawless up until that point.
    Ok, I agree, I kind of went off on a tangent...atleast you appreciate my hair-splitting ways

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    That doesn't make any sense. How does that increase one's chances of survival? Perhaps the survival of one's ideas, in the memetic sense.
    you can't look at it literally. not every situation is life or death. but she made that post because it benefitted her in some way. people will never deliberately do something that they believed would not benefit them, unless they actually wished to die, which would simply mean that they believed that death would benefit them more than life, thus reasserting the principle.

    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    True, but in postmodern society death is among the least of our worries. The fact that you have to resort to a stranded-on-an-island metaphor demonstrates this.
    I use such a metaphor to strip away all the fallacies and illusions of modern society. To see humans at their essence, you cannot look through the window of society....that would completely muddy it. we have "laws", codes that we live by....it's all bullshit....

    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat
    Take for example the state of living on ones own without friends, family or significant other; a state we instinctively think of as 'social death'.
    yeah, exactly.....we strive to survive based on cost/benefit....if all of our family dies, we suddenly "feel" there is nothing to live for, making death a better option....it's all perception and action vs. consequence....real primitive shit

    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    No. I've tried to kill myself before and totally and fully wanted to die.
    yeah, but before that, you wanted to live. it was just the situation and your perception of what was going on that made death more appealing than life. btw, what was it like to almost cross over? I tend to be attracted to the concept of death, not depressed enough to consider suicide, but will muse to myself on certain things and like to explore the other side....

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    "yeah, but before that, you wanted to live. it was just the situation and your perception of what was going on that made death more appealing than life. btw, what was it like to almost cross over? I tend to be attracted to the concept of death, not depressed enough to consider suicide, but will muse to myself on certain things and like to explore the other side...."

    Horrifying.
    "To become is just like falling asleep. You never know exactly when it happens, the transition, the magic, and you think, if you could only recall that exact moment of crossing the line then you would understand everything; you would see it all"

    "Angels dancing on the head of a pin dissolve into nothingness at the bedside of a dying child."

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    Quote Originally Posted by MysticSonic
    Horrifying.
    yeah, I guess there's a big difference between thought and action.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    you can't look at it literally. not every situation is life or death. but she made that post because it benefitted her in some way. people will never deliberately do something that they believed would not benefit them, unless they actually wished to die, which would simply mean that they believed that death would benefit them more than life, thus reasserting the principle.
    I agree with the principle, but benefit != survival. Evolutionary psychology has shown that cooperation can lead to overall increases in fitness, so people aren't always happiest doing what leads directly to their survival.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush
    I agree with the principle, but benefit != survival. Evolutionary psychology has shown that cooperation can lead to overall increases in fitness, so people aren't always happiest doing what leads directly to their survival.
    well, people act out of self-benefit...you're right, benefit doesn't always = survival...so i guess we should go with peoples' perceptions of the best possible life guiding their actions....survival plays a big part, but because we are advanced intellectually, there is more to it.

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    Altruistic behavior leads to complete failure of every theory that doesn't take it into account. If we model the utility function of subject 1 as U(sub-1)(X), for values of X that are above survival level you have U(sub-1)(X)=X+(alpha)U(sub-2)(X) with 0<alpha<1 (and its estimation is very difficult because it's not a linear function)
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Altruistic behavior leads to complete failure of every theory that doesn't take it into account. If we model the utility function of subject 1 as U(sub-1)(X), for values of X that are above survival level you have U(sub-1)(X)=X+(alpha)U(sub-2)(X) with 0<alpha<1 (and its estimation is very difficult because it's not a linear function)
    hmm...ok....well, if you're saying that genorosity and honesty contradict the survival theory, I'd say that those too are forms of survival, whether it's getting on someone's good side through a gift or telling the truth because you think it will benefit you.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    hmm...ok....well, if you're saying that genorosity and honesty contradict the survival theory, I'd say that those too are forms of survival, whether it's getting on someone's good side through a gift or telling the truth because you think it will benefit you.

    That's way too cynical. What about enjoying seeing another person smiling?
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    That's way too cynical. What about enjoying seeing another person smiling?
    that is an example of an event that smoothly benefits your universe, producing a smile on your face. the wave interactions of giving a gift and seeing someone smile could be conceptualized as your output into the universe, like risking, hoping for benefit, while the other person receives a wave that they feel benefits them and they understand why it was sent out, thus feeling flattered and happy - which means everything is running smoothly, even moreso because nothing can go wrong, no dissonance - and when you receive this message, the same thing happens to you.

    my whole wave interaction shit came from here: www.spaceandmotion.com.....it basically has some really compelling evidence for their "theory of physical reality"....there's some hard math that I didn't really focus on, but a lot of good information....once I was able to understand this concept decently, I could apply it to a lot of stuff.

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    The saddest truth about introverted logic is that when it's not implemented into the real world it's nothing but a defense mechanism for my long gone ego. The worst truth for an INTj is that he's defective, figure it out.

    Through my eyes humans are no different than bacteria. Now, do you really want to hear this?

    If you want insight, get it from an INTp. He/she might teach you that life is about feeling, not ones and zeros.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intjguy
    The saddest truth about introverted logic is that when it's not implemented into the real world it's nothing but a defense mechanism for my long gone ego. The worst truth for an INTj is that he's defective, figure it out.

    Through my eyes humans are no different than bacteria. Now, do you really want to hear this?

    If you want insight, get it from an INTp. He will tell you that life is about feeling, not ones and zeros.
    I like your thinking. we are the same as bacteria in essence because we are both products of the universe. I'm not so sure about the INTp thing. you would probably see that in an INFp.

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    Quote Originally Posted by intjguy View Post
    The saddest truth about introverted logic is that when it's not implemented into the real world it's nothing but a defense mechanism for my long gone ego. The worst truth for an INTj is that he's defective, figure it out.

    Through my eyes humans are no different than bacteria. Now, do you really want to hear this?

    If you want insight, get it from an INTp. He/she might teach you that life is about feeling, not ones and zeros.
    Whoa...

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    that is an example of an event that smoothly benefits your universe, producing a smile on your face. the wave interactions of giving a gift and seeing someone smile could be conceptualized as your output into the universe, like risking, hoping for benefit, while the other person receives a wave that they feel benefits them and they understand why it was sent out, thus feeling flattered and happy - which means everything is running smoothly, even moreso because nothing can go wrong, no dissonance - and when you receive this message, the same thing happens to you.

    my whole wave interaction shit came from here: www.spaceandmotion.com.....it basically has some really compelling evidence for their "theory of physical reality"....there's some hard math that I didn't really focus on, but a lot of good information....once I was able to understand this concept decently, I could apply it to a lot of stuff.

    I think it would be a good question to ask if the value of that karma wave exceeds the value of the altruistic act.
    "Far better it is to dare mighty things, to win glorious triumphs, even though checkered by failure, than to take rank with those poor spirits who neither enjoy much nor suffer much, because they live in the gray twilight that knows not victory nor defeat."
    --Theodore Roosevelt

    "Twenty years from now you will be more disappointed by the things that you didn't do than by the ones you did do. So throw off the bowlines. Sail away from the safe harbor. Catch the trade winds in your sails. Explore. Dream. Discover."
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    Quote Originally Posted by intjguy View Post
    The saddest truth about introverted logic is that when it's not implemented into the real world it's nothing but a defense mechanism for my long gone ego. The worst truth for an INTj is that he's defective, figure it out.

    Through my eyes humans are no different than bacteria. Now, do you really want to hear this?

    If you want insight, get it from an INTp. He/she might teach you that life is about feeling, not ones and zeros.

    i would have to say that you have some insight into the LII mindset. you must have a high level of self awareness. however, you're bashing yourself a little bit too much. discussions that i have with LII's are among the most productive i've ever had. they tend to gravitate to over arching theories that explain a lot of things; i tend to gravitate toward theories that explain smaller spheres of activity. between the two of us, we come up with cogent wholes that can be applied to many many things. i cannot think of a better relation for understanding reality.

    so don't say that nobody wants to hear what an LII has to say. i do. i don't think the problem is Ti. the problem if the LII is male is Se polr. this sucks for them, since in our culture men are valued mostly for this. if the LII is female Se polr is not as much of a problem. but in my opinion, LII's more than make up for this with their strengths. i think acknowledging their need for Fe types is paramount, as well as acknowledging how much they value Fe is paramount. once you get with people who really appreciate and support you, you'd be surprised by how much your weaknesses fade away and how much your strengths bloom.

    socionics says it has to be your dual...i'm not so sure about this. i think it can be your dual, semi dual, illusionary, or activity partner.

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    Good post SunshineLively I often see how much a positive Fe environment means to a LII I know well. Fe is like water to a flower for her.
    INFp

    If your sea chart does not match reality, go with reality (Old mariner saying)



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    thanks Wittmont....all that Fe helps ILE's quite a lot too, hahaha. ;-)

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    "intjguy=The saddest truth about introverted logic is that when it's not implemented into the real world it's nothing but a defense mechanism for my long gone ego. The worst truth for an INTj is that he's defective, figure it out."

    You just have to look beyond yourself, guy. What i have discovered is that i need other people. We sometimes don't know how to ask for help. LII's tend to try and solve everything by themselves, which obviously is a self-defeating unwise strategy. The feeling of defectiveness comes rather from disappointment that some things can't be accomplished by yourself alone. i've learned it from wonderful SEI's and SEE's that i happen to interact with in time. I've got to say i am astonished how natural it is for them to grasp this damn simple fact of life. We do have things to learn from them and that's ok, because they can also learn things from us. That's just how life works, i guess.

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    LII's seem to have that "me against the world" attitude,and I like that in them. Unfortunately, they sometimes take it too far, which makes me sadddd.

    I am going to tell every LII I know(and I know a couple) to stop feeling defective and start feeling the , because Fe makes the world go around.

    With their and my , we'll rule the world together. They can govern and be all smart, and I can appease the people with my witticisms. Sounds like a plan, no?
    D-SEI 9w1

    This is me and my dual being scientific together

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    liveandletlive's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kamangir View Post
    LII's seem to have that "me against the world" attitude,and I like that in them. Unfortunately, they sometimes take it too far, which makes me sadddd.

    I am going to tell every LII I know(and I know a couple) to stop feeling defective and start feeling the , because Fe makes the world go around.

    With their and my , we'll rule the world together. They can govern and be all smart, and I can appease the people with my witticisms. Sounds like a plan, no?
    spoken like a true ISFp!

    intjguy- that's a very LII post as well IME and IMO. I know you probably don't want to hear advice from your conflict, but here it goes... everyone benefits from your in one way or another so don't think that it's useless. I know that you think that you think people are similar to bacteria in that everything we do and are is calculable, but i think you're not giving your enough credit. All the LIIs I know are very polite and courteous and that puts everyone at ease too! I know that this may not help you feel any better, but you should know that it's not as bad as you may think.
    ESFp-Fi sub
    6w7 sx/so/sp

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    I don't think "conflictors" is the best way to describe the relation. First there is no conflict, at least from the distance we do admire each other (i believe). Then when we get to interact more closely I for one find SEE's frustrating (i.e. not responding to my needs) and i think it is mutual.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sunshine Lively View Post
    i don't think the problem is Ti. the problem if the LII is male is Se polr. this sucks for them, since in our culture men are valued mostly for this.
    Please elaborate. I have no Se friends.

    I appreciate your post liveandletlive.

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    Altough we live in totally different worlds, LII's and SEE's are alike in some way. Like we have this passion inside us "that fire in the soul" that we can do exceptional things because of it, but it can also destroy us. Which is why we need someone with a balanced temperament (EJ or IP) that can give a direction in which to go

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    LIIs, you astound me.

    So does the rest of Alpha, by the way.
    type #33
    but maybe LSE, and maybe E3w4(p)

    Quote Originally Posted by BulletsAndDoves View Post
    It's why you have a mana bar, not a rage bar.

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