LSI-ILI Benefit Relations (ISTj & INTp)

[reyn_til_runa]

i have an ISTj friend and although we get along at times, we always come back to disagreeing about the same issues.

1 - in arguing with this ISTj, i told him he can't see the bigger picture. he responded, "no, YOU can't." i clarified that by "bigger picture," i did not mean the literal future, which i suspected he had thought. sure enough, he started talking about plans for the literal future, how i have no concept of these plans, and that he has no idea what i mean by bigger picture. i told him that i meant looking beneath the surface, searching for truth, discovering the root of a problem, and as a result of doing these things, arriving at a more accurate perception of things. this process seems foreign to him although he'll do lip service to understanding it.

related to the confusion with "bigger picture" is the misunderstood concept of correction for the sake of learning. 9/10 times, when i've pointed out a discrepancy or problem, and sought to correct it, he's considered it petty, not understood it at all, or completely denied there was a problem. i tried telling him several times that being discriminating is necessary to making improvements, but he doesn't seem to get it and continues to perceive my corrective tendencies as annoying, unnecessary, negative, argumentative, etc.

2 -next ongoing conflict which i havent been able to understand fully but which seems related to Fe/Fi: he seems to interpret playfulness as affection and mocks me when i am playful as if i'm coming on to him. this REALLY does not work. why is this? also, he has the irritating habit of asking, half jokingly, why i am worshipping him. ?? he will say this when i have not even remotely complemented him. what is this hang up with repelling playfulness yet seeming to have a need to be praised,or perhaps just interpreting innocuous comments as praise?

3 - third, our logical standpoints often put us at an impasse. he often considers my logic irrelevant to his points and i consider his logic irrelevant to mine. i mean when we are getting down to the technical points of an argument.

4 -then there's trouble with Se. would be nice if the ISTj could offer me some of the Se i need, but it's way too forceful, nagging, basically confirms that i will do anything BUT what he suggests. if he "advises" me to quit smoking, he expects a postive reaction or some effort to quit. baffling. i told him many times that i will quit when i feel like it and that he should stop worrying about it. doesn't seem to make a bit of difference. it's as if "as his friend" i am expected to perform to his "healthy" standards, which i must say, don't seem all that healthy or realistic to me.

i don't mean to bash ISTjs at all, but would like a little more insight into the type and into their relationships with INTps. i don't see much appeal for the long term although i think there's possibly an attraction to each other in the early stages and that they can be good "distant" friends, not too wrapped up in each others' lives.

[Expat]

Very interesting.

1 - in arguing with this ISTj, i told him he can't see the bigger picture. he responded, "no, YOU can't." i clarified that by "bigger picture," i did not mean the literal future, which i suspected he had thought. sure enough, he started talking about plans for the literal future, how i have no concept of these plans, and that he has no idea what i mean by bigger picture. i told him that i meant looking beneath the surface, searching for truth, discovering the root of a problem, and as a result of doing these things, arriving at a more accurate perception of things. this process seems foreign to him although he'll do lip service to understanding it.

It would be useful if we knew exactly what you were talking about, but from what I understand of your personality and style, it seems that you were using your but with some ; that annoys him since his works more limited to his and goals. By that I mean the following -- his "big picture" is more an extrapolation of his logical understanding of reality; a typical unhealthy manifestation of this in LSIs is an inclination to go for conspiracy theories.

Your bigger picture, I suspect, takes to another level, enlarged by , and extrapolating your understanding of things as they are.

related to the confusion with "bigger picture" is the misunderstood concept of correction for the sake of learning. 9/10 times, when i've pointed out a discrepancy or problem, and sought to correct it, he's considered it petty, not understood it at all, or completely denied there was a problem. i tried telling him several times that being discriminating is necessary to making improvements, but he doesn't seem to get it and continues to perceive my corrective tendencies as annoying, unnecessary, negative, argumentative, etc.

You are probably using arguments that he sees as irrelevant and missing the point, as if you were "nit-picking for the sake of nit-picking", and he sees that as negative : you are nit-picking for the sake of annoying him.

2 -next ongoing conflict which i havent been able to understand fully but which seems related to Fe/Fi: he seems to interpret playfulness as affection and mocks me when i am playful as if i'm coming on to him. this REALLY does not work. why is this? also, he has the irritating habit of asking, half jokingly, why i am worshipping him. ?? he will say this when i have not even remotely complemented him. what is this hang up with repelling playfulness yet seeming to have a need to be praised,or perhaps just interpreting innocuous comments as praise?

This is a disconnect on his interpretation of your not-so-clear . You "give off" some kind of that he has no doubt in his about being "worshipping him"; his "need to be praised" is typical dual-seeking. If you want to see an extremely unhealthy example of this, see the Enver Hoxha video in the "LSI videos" thread.

3 - third, our logical standpoints often put us at an impasse. he often considers my logic irrelevant to his points and i consider his logic irrelevant to mine. i mean when we are getting down to the technical points of an argument.

This is standard versus disconnect. What you see as most relevant to the case he sees as secondary, and vice-versa.

4 -then there's trouble with Se. would be nice if the ISTj could offer me some of the Se i need, but it's way too forceful, nagging, basically confirms that i will do anything BUT what he suggests. if he "advises" me to quit smoking, he expects a postive reaction or some effort to quit. baffling. i told him many times that i will quit when i feel like it and that he should stop worrying about it. doesn't seem to make a bit of difference. it's as if "as his friend" i am expected to perform to his "healthy" standards, which i must say, don't seem all that healthy or realistic to me.

His serves his understanding of how things should be, which includes you not smoking. End of story.

i don't mean to bash ISTjs at all, but would like a little more insight into the type and into their relationships with INTps. i don't see much appeal for the long term although i think there's possibly an attraction to each other in the early stages and that they can be good "distant" friends, not too wrapped up in each others' lives.

Relationship of benefit -- you are the beneficiary. That means that he's interesting to you due to his Se and even, in an amusing way, to his Ti. You, however, probably annoy him due to (1) your (to him) over-focus on Ne, your stronger Ni that mocks his HA, and your low concern for Fe which he craves the most from people.

[FDG]

Sensing + thinking = do this!
Intuition + thinking = let's do it this way instead

As you see, it's a never-ending cycle.

(as opposed to sensing+feeling= we could do this if that's okay with you? and intuition+feeling=mmm i kind of see what i should do, maybe later and now we might do this instead)

[Blaze]

Sensing + thinking = do this!
Intuition + thinking = let's do it this way instead

As you see, it's a never-ending cycle.

(as opposed to sensing+feeling= we could do this if that's okay with you? and intuition+feeling=mmm i kind of see what i should do, maybe later and now we might do this instead)

absolutely. kinda describes ILE-SLE relations a little bit too. but less cantankerous than the LSI-ILI one, where they have different kinds of logic.

also, i think reyn when he tells you to quit smoking it's coming from his 8th function/Si where he goes around telling everybody about what they need to do to take care of their health. i wouldn't personalize this. tell him that every problem you have, you have it because you smoke. lol. why won't this window open? it must be because i smoke. then he'll back off that one.

i do agree with expat on how you have added Ne to the possibilities equation. this would really slap his polr then.

[implied]

With ISTJs the only way to get along with them is doing it their way. Like if they want you to help them, forget about your own life you have to do exactly as they say.

yeah, which i think is probably nearly impossible for an INTp. i assume this would be seen as a suppression of one's own personality, at least on the part of the INTp.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

it's as if "as his friend" i am expected to perform to his "healthy" standards, which i must say, don't seem all that healthy or realistic to me.

Well I ain't gonna lie and say that shit doesn't fuck up your lungs royally and makes em ugly, but it's usually a multitude of unhealthy lifestyle factors that fucks people over. Nobody likes nagging, but maybe he really does care about you and he just doesn't want anything bad to happen. But I agree it puts you in a lose-lose situation. Do what he says, well then you're his bitch now. Don't do what he says, and well - you'll end up being fucked over by the cigs because life likes to spite people that way. Why that shit and alcohol is socially acceptable, and pot isn't- is beyond my comprehension. Kinda like how people feel once you hit 18 then it's fine, you can be spat on and throat fucked like nobody's business but have soft, gentle sex with a kid and that's somehow soooooo wrong and the Worst. Sin. Ever. God, people annoy me soooo much.

I take very good care of myself so I don't get that, but people nag me about getting a job and conforming to social norms and other such things. Which I end up actually being happier if I obey, just because they treat me sooo much better if I do. ((And we all like to be treated nicely by people even if we do hate 'em)) It's like, you don't want to be a bitch but sometimes ya gotta be....I guess.

[Adam Strange]

I found this thread by looking for ILI-LSI relations.

My new next-door neighbor is a freshly-divorced English ILI with two kids in college. The house next to mine is pretty expensive, and when we first got to talking, he told me that the only way he was able to afford it was to screw his ex-wife out of her share of the marriage settlement and leave her in England. This surprised me, because ILI's are normally not that unfair, although they can easily be that cold. But it basically put him on my shit list.

About a month after he moved in, I was in the back yard and I heard a drunken woman's voice calling to me from the second floor balcony of his house. It was his new GF in a loose bathrobe, and she is pretty clearly an LSI. He came out in his own bathrobe and waved to me.

That was about a year ago, and they might be married by now, IDK. I don't talk to him much. But I do see them get in and out of their car sometimes, and he is looking more and more withdrawn and she is looking more and more frustrated and pissed off. This thread goes a long way toward explaining why.

It'll be interesting to see how this develops. She is a University professor, and not a pushover by any means.

Karma, dudes.

[FDG]

LSIs overall are pretty immune to every form of criticism, in my experience. Something they share with all the static-postivists but their creative makes it more obvious.

This trait can sometimes be useful in complicated situations where a strong will and high self esteem are important - and where perhaps criticism is a more of a political putdown than something with constructive intent.

Can be dangerous when they choose the wrong path, or insist on dealing with people in their own "correct" way.

EDIT: both Se creative types share a reforming attitude towards other people. Their duals solve this by having lots of hobbies and other friends (even our dear Strats said that a problem in the ILI-ESI relation is that the ILI is around the house too much and receives too much creative Se from the ESI).

They (the Se creatives) are also often quite unaware of this characteristic in themselves. This is where their supervisor can be useful. EIEs and LIEs will never criticize them on this, too much of a pussy and too scared it's going to breach their relation with them.

[Alomoes]

I'm reviving the thread, cause it's an actual useful thing to talk about. I also don't believe the question was satisfactorily answered. Also, Adam Strange, great minds think alike.

Yeap. My dad's probably a good comparison. You're essentially talking to Lobo. The main man. The main man don't want no help none of the time. That's annoying cause you're main feature is to give useful insights. He's essentially looking for someone to give him useful projects for an ample, reward. By useful, I mean yeah. Also. Don't bother talking big picture with him. He enjoys minute details, and thinks anything grandiose is stupid and a waste of time.

He's essentially best seen as the worlds greatest freelance worker. He'll move jobs a lot, hates sitting in one spot (in the big picture), and doesn't like to be tied down. Expect a job he can drive long distances on or fly long distances on.

Remember, he's also introverted. You're introverted. You're both going to be standing around trying to prompt the other person to do something. I'm extroverted, so it's better with me. Comparison, my bro is ESFp, and we don't hang out much cause he tries to imperialize his views on me and vice versa. So like I need water and coffee. He's like, you don't need it. I'm like, you're right, I can wait, but it's more efficient for me not to wait. So he's successful in logical manipulation, not once, but twice before I say yes, I do want the coffee, I'll do it cause it's cheap. 3 bucks for a jumbo ice coffee and jumbo water. So yeah, we piss each other off with prolonged contact.

Back to you guys. So INTp and ISTj are introverted. You're both going to piss each other off. Why? The prompting makes each other uncomfortable. This'll drive you apart.

So essentially, what I do is I never talk anything ambiguous around him. I talk my technical skill in code, which he doesn't understand, but appreciates. Your Fe polr is also going to piss him off. You're going to want to make it excessively clear that you mean no harm. He cannot tell at all. Fi/Ne super ego means he doesn't value that ability at all.

Also, forceful nagging is to be expected. I learned to drive off him. It was a traumatic experience, but I'm an excellent driver now.

Lastly, he wants to be told happy things about himself and others he likes, and feel included in the group. He's willing to go as grim as possible, but he's complex. If you say you're similar, he'll take it as a compliment, assess you, and then you'll either pass or fail. You'll likely fail, but he'll see what you mean. So that's my advice for you.

Also, he's an excellent driver. You're with nobody else safer, even if he has a billion traffic violations.

Lastly, with constructive criticism, you're going to hurt their feelings, and then you're going to have to apologize to them, unless they respect you, which is easier to get out of an ENTj than an INTp. Less of their polr, which is threatening.

Reforming attitude is interesting. You're not wrong, I'd just use different words. Motivating attitude. They mean well, but I can't work without specific required things to occur, meanwhile, he's always working, so he doesn't get it. Not a big deal.

Betterhanded hit it right on the nose. He's very technically minded, so ironically, he'll have problems with money without a good healthy income and someone to reduce costs. Ni will do this by suggesting work arounds, but we're going to focus too much on reducing spending and streamlining processes, and that's just not feasible for him. He's more of a tinker all day till he gets it, kind of guy. Mechanics is an art, I guess. He'll figure out one solution, and then he'll just do that solution, even if there's a better one, unless someone else shows him a better solution. I'm not that technical about it, so I'll actually probably try explaining the solution, which he appreciates, but that don't help him.

So answers.

1. He's wrong, you actually can, he can't though, and will affirm his incorrect viewpoints until someone else politely corrects him probably without him even realizing it. Don't fight him on this. It is not worth it. This is actually a core thing that messes with him around you. Gotta be excessively clear about your reasoning, and he still might not understand your motive. Ne polr, baby. "y u have all this cash here? We should spend it" Meanwhile, it's your retirement fund. Best thing to do is to tell him fine, but not all of it. And then you're gonna go on a bender. Shoot. Hold on, I'll fix it. Get him season passes to something he really likes. He loves going on trips. You'll have to go with him to show you're in the group. Actually, tell him that what comes out of the pot goes back in the pot, and that's the best answer. He'll see the reasoning there, I think, just in a different way than you'd expect. Emergency fun bucks. If you blow all the money now, you'll not have any latter.

2. He can't tell if you're coming onto him or not.

3. Sorry to say, your logic is not useful to him, but watching him work probably is. If you hired him to just work for you, that'd be the most optimal arrangement, but there are better methods of learning, so you won't. A lot of helpful videos on the internet are probably by this guy though, especially if he owns his own company. I can see him/her being in a lot of the cooking videos I watched.

4. You're not wrong. Don't think of Se as a thing to acquire though. I think of it as motivation. You can get motivation outside of social relations though, so you're probably fine. I really can't. Hence the equitable trade of Ni for Se, but no good results will come out of extremely close contact. Just seeing him every so often is good, but he'll probably get frustrated that I'm shooting the moon, when he worked bottom up.

Also ILI kiddos, why you have a thing for these people? They're not good for you. You're probably not a kid, it's a joke, and they'll probably show up everywhere wherever you work if it's not too technical like socionics. Like, that's how you avoid them. If you pick an easier task to master, like architecture, or even engineering to a degree though, you'll still see them everywhere. Like, they're the best budget architect on the market, cause they undercut everyone, and do the job to an exemplary level. Just don't expect Frank Loyd Wright or Tesla. Expect the biggest truck with the largest wheels on the planet, or the largest TNT bomb producible. That kind of thing. Not that monster trucks ain't cool, I enjoy them for their utility at crushing things, they enjoy them for the awesome scale of it.

You can explain this to him, just try and put him as superior to you in technical skills, and he'll probably appreciate it more. Cause he is. Unironically. Just tell him you'd be best managing money, because that's not a technical skill. And that's how the benefit works. All Ni you have will go out to him through Te, which he don't need or care about but understands with effort. So then he's like, this is stupid, I don't need this, I'm out. But he'll be like we might have something here, and then do you favors for essentially exactly that he said. He still does my mom favors, even though that won't change a thing about her analysis of him, cause rightfully so, she should've done the finances. Damn financial wizard. Still would rather do her taxes for her, but she's sending it off to grandpa, who is actually certified to do it. Damn certifications. Literally my one weakness is I can't get certified very well. I need someone to cert me plox. Well, that, and the weakness of dying of a mosquito biting me cause I'll never notice I have malaria. Good news, I am certified, just not officially. I'm an unofficial professional socionics dude, which is a branch of psychology that I'll be starting soon^tm.

Thonk we're done. Hope this helps people, and that it's true and good. I don't know what you'll do with this information, but I catered it to the perspective of an ILI while leaving enough irrelevant details to piss them off but also be useful to other people. That's a joke. Some people can't tell, so I explain that to cater to those people.

Also, when I mean Lobo, I mean old Lobo. The one that got real fat in issue something. Should've made new Lobo old Lobo's kid. That'd be actually make sense. Good plot twist as well.