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Thread: Correlates Between Socionics IM and the Brain

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    Default Correlates Between Socionics IM and the Brain

    This thread is an attempt to directly correlate cognitive psychology to IM elements. Additionally, it introduces a new hypothesis of element damage as a means of correlating brain damage to problems processing the IM elements as described by Augusta. Some of the correlates may prove difficult to define; it is important to distinguish actual element processing in the mind from say, the minute relationships between cells which would be better described as IM aspects. Your comment (and constructive criticism) are appreciated.

    Note: this thread will be updated as new conclusions are reached.


    Se corellates

    Vision

    - Edwin Land's retinex theory of color constancy:
    "The cortex compares information from various parts of the retina to determine the brightness and color for each area."

    - opponent-process theory of color perception:
    "color perception in terms of paired opposites: red vs. green, yellow vs. blue, white vs black."

    - motion-sensing rods of the retina

    - Color blindness: Se receptor damage

    - feature detector cells in the primary visual cortex discern edges and delineating marks by means of contrast between other discerned features.



    Ni corellates

    - the supplementary motor cortex "is important for planning and organizing a rapid sequence of movements".

    - the prefrontal cortex "calculates probable outcomes of various actions and plans movements according to those outcomes."



    Si corellates

    Vision

    -The eye's function is carried out by highly complex Si interactions between different cell systems in the eye; these cell systems react in response to the external stimulie of light.

    -The means by which the brain percieves visual information is an Si internal reproduction phenomenon. Damage to this system can cause blindsight.

    -The phenomenon of quick eye movements (saccades) is an example of evolved disconnection between Si feedback paths.

    General

    -All sensory disabilities (deafness, blindness, etc.) are effects of a disconnect between Si's reception and internal replicant systems. (which are responsible for the reception's perception) These are due to either pathway damage/poor development, or damage/poor development to the systems themselves.



    Ne corellates

    - shape constancy allows us to recognize an object's shape independent of changes in space. (a big duck and a small duck are both ducks, is one example.)

    -visual agnosia implies a partial degredation of Ne's functions. Given that visual agnosia arises from damage to the temporal cortex, it is suggested that part of Ne's processing is conducted there.


    Fe correlates

    - mirror neurons allow an individual to identify with others' actions.



    Shared Processes

    Se/Ni-Ne/Si

    - Young-Helmholtz color-cone theory:
    "color perception through relative rates of response by three kinds of cones, each kind maximally sensitive to different kinds of wavelengths."

    Se/Si

    - the somatosensory cortex is a processor of the relationship between Se and Si.

    - motion blindness implies a feedback system disconnect between Se and Si.

    - the sensation of pressure is a Si feedback system combined with Se depth analysis.

    -Sensesthesia is a phenomenon of blurring between normally distinct element processes. (for example, saying the elements "have color") This phenomenon can be correlated to Jung's statement in Psychological Types of "functions fused with other functions, and parts of functions" as "archaic." (but as always with Jung's vaguities, "archaism" should be taken as lightly and critically as possible.)

    Ni/Se

    - The prefrontal cortex plans its actions in direct response to sensory information. ("lights, noises, and other sensory signals that lead to movement.")

    - The motor cortex "produces a readiness potential before any voluntary movement"; the implications for cognition are such: planning occurs in response to suggestions of movement; thus planning is always contingent on movement. This is very important to us as Socionics proponents, because it is an empirical affirmation of Augusta's philosophy that the aspects are seeking each other: Ni only responds to suggestions of movements, which is exactly what Augusta has hypothesized. It is a partial affirmation of Augusta's dual-seeking theory, and of socionics' fundamental principle. The readiness potential theory, although proven beyond doubt in many studies, has been rejected by some psychologists on purely philosophical grounds. In the larger historical context of our time, Augusta's dual nature theory may be poised to not only put these concerns in context, but to provide foundations for an entirely new direction in philosophy.

    An instance of explicit Ni dual-seeking at the aspect level may be evident in the disorder agnosognia. Patients with agnosognia, who have the condition due to damage of the right motor cortex. The motor cortex's sensory monitoring system -- a means of relationship of Ni to Se, what might think -- fails to function, preventing the brain from affirming whether its motor commands are being obeyed. (the means of ascertaining one's own paralysis.) The premotor cortex, however, plans movement regardless of whether or not it receives feedback. The implication is that planning in response to movement is an end in itself.


    All statements are sourced from Biological Psychology, a text by James W. Kalat.
    Last edited by tcaudilllg; 12-23-2007 at 11:59 AM.

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    If these correlations are actually true, then there would be a good argument in favor of stating that ILI and SLI are the Socionic types most susceptible to Asperger's and Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

    But, again, that would depend on these correlations being entirely true. I find some of these to be rather well-thought-out, yet still exceedingly dubious. Would this mean that all blind or deaf people have to be intuitives?
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    Quote Originally Posted by Iconoclast IX View Post
    If these correlations are actually true, then there would be a good argument in favor of stating that ILI and SLI are the Socionic types most susceptible to Asperger's and Autistic Spectrum Disorders.

    But, again, that would depend on these correlations being entirely true. I find some of these to be rather well-thought-out, yet still exceedingly dubious. Would this mean that all blind or deaf people have to be intuitives?
    You misunderstand. These are correlations to COMMON PROCESSES, the IM elements themselves. Not types.

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    Dude; socionics is an algorithmic phenomenom; it describes a way of processing information. I don't have much faith that any of what it describes can be correlated to the physical part of the brain. I hope you know what you're doing.

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    I have absolute faith in what I am doing. How could I possibly be wrong, considering the IM elements are PROCESSORS which must have a physical analogue? Additionally, research has confirmed that different kinds of nerve cells manage different functions. I hypothesize that there is a nerve cell specialization for every processing component of each element.

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    Well, let's forget about socionics for a moment, can we?

    The brain is a complex circuit, it has an electric and a chemical part:

    * The electrical part is ordered (rational).
    * The chemical part is random (irrational).

    There are several factors that describe the properties of the parts listed above. For example:

    For the chemical part, there is a speed factor for both releases of chemicals and perseverance of their effects whit in the system. An emotionally subdued person is slow to react chemically speaking, while the opposite is true for an emotionally driven one.

    For the electric part, there is a speed factor when it comes to creating and destroying synaptic connections. If they are built and destroyed quickly, there is a tendency to be open to new experiences, procedures and ideas. It's the root of creativity, but over time what is learned tends to get lost if it's not too strongly held. If they are slowly created and destroyed, there is a tendency to be reluctant to try new approached and a greater tendency to stick to procedures, traditions and overall stable and static environments.

    Chemical reactions inside the brain are complex in that they are not only variable in their amount, but on their type too. There are many kinds of chemical "signals" and there is a possibility that many behaviors are "essential", but they usually revolve around two basic options: excitation and inhibition.

    When coupled with the electric circuit of the brain, those processes reward or punish lines of thought until the desired result is obtained. This happens at a micro scale, but it can grow up to be an observable pattern of thought.

    The electrical circuit of the brain contains two different variants in its composition: linear and relational logic (which is analog to serial and parallel circuits in electronics).

    Linear logic, just like a serial circuit, breaks open when a single element inside a chain gets out of the trend. Relational logic, on the other side, accepts elements in an ever increasing in complexity equation that must be balanced in order to find a common trend.

    By using the definitions above we can build a more realistic and less theoretical model than socionics. For example, what socionics calls an ENFj can be perfectly explained as follows:

    In an ENFj the electrical circuit is slow (which makes them 'j'), the chemical circuit is fast (which makes them 'F', but also 'E'). The 'N' is something I can't explain right now.

    I hope you can take the basic idea from there.
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    Labcoat has a good point; the "actual" IM elements, being more mental than physical, probably don't directly correspond to these kinds of processes. But there are certainly some interesting biological analogies.

    For example, I've been toying with the idea of "homeostasis" as a metaphor for Si.

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    Quote Originally Posted by thehotelambush View Post
    Labcoat has a good point; the "actual" IM elements, being more mental than physical, probably don't directly correspond to these kinds of processes. But there are certainly some interesting biological analogies.

    For example, I've been toying with the idea of "homeostasis" as a metaphor for Si.
    Well no, there is no direct analogue, because the IM elements are purely intuitive constructs; they transcend any kind of concrete definition. However, the neural processes I've described here do seem to implement them. On that basis they are correlates.

    Quote Originally Posted by mikemex
    For the electric part, there is a speed factor when it comes to creating and destroying synaptic connections. If they are built and destroyed quickly, there is a tendency to be open to new experiences, procedures and ideas. It's the root of creativity, but over time what is learned tends to get lost if it's not too strongly held. If they are slowly created and destroyed, there is a tendency to be reluctant to try new approached and a greater tendency to stick to procedures, traditions and overall stable and static environments.
    That's interesting. What you are describing could be a (partial) correlate for psychic domian theory.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg View Post
    Well no, there is no direct analogue, because the IM elements are purely intuitive constructs; they transcend any kind of concrete definition. However, the neural processes I've described here do seem to implement them. On that basis they are correlates.
    Ah, good point.

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    there is an article by russian socionist Philimonov (INTP) who now resides in the US, that explores exactly the same thing. it's at socioniko.net. i might post it later if i find it.
    In the U.S., you say? How could one get in touch with Mr. Philimonov?

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    Quote Originally Posted by dee View Post
    *yawn*

    I think it's "Filimonov", anyway. I can't seem to find a socionics-related Philimonov on Google, but Filimonov is suggested.

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    Mikemex, that was really interesting and actually may have a lot of explanatory potential. Bravo. Not sure of the exact (if such a thing exists) correlation to socionic types, though. It seems you are thinking along the same lines as Viktor Talanov, who created a new model "T" to replace model A, based on neurophysiological characteristics such as what you've described here. I'm just beginning to look into it, and there is an article on it at Wikisocion.
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    I'm skeptical about the chemical/electrical distinction. Can anybody who knows neurology confirm that it makes sense?

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    ok, the endocrine system probably has something to do with ethics.

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    I was thinking :

    Left brain : Sensing and Logic
    Right brain : Intuition and Ethics

    Outer brain : Logic and Intuition
    Inner brain : Sensing and Ethics

    (these hypotheses are based on the Ned Herrmann's Model)

    Front brain : Dynamics
    Back brain : Statics

    Upper brain : J+ and P- elements
    Lower brain : J- and P+ elements

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