A question for all you victims out there

[Creepy-female]

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[redbaron]

Whoa. You are right on the money with this. But I never realized I felt this way, really, until you spelled it out. Very fulfilling, yes. I recently became friend with an SLE and he knows I like fast cars and motorcycles. So once this fall he pulled up in his new Audi and offered me a ride. I said I would like to but maybe another time. So he kept saying "are you sure?" and I asked if he'd let me drive (pushing him, seeing what he would say) and he said yes! I kept saying no because I was in a previous conversation with someone else who was standing right there. He finally backed down but it was kind of fun to watch him pressure me. It definitely felt good and different from most people who would accept my first answer (how boring!).

[Animal]

Why do people keep asking that?

Anyway, here what I wrote:

I used to do that until I apparently got so good at saying "No" that even ESTps would back off after the first time and so I was all left on my lonesome until one week when I decided just to say "Yes" the first time around and an ESTp asked me if I wanted to go dancing and I said "Yes" against my initial inclinations and you know what it was fun.

[Wittmont]

Unfortunately I don't know any ESTp's close where I live now. But going on past experience when I have met my dual (and I did not know about duality back then) I have never thought in terms of making a conscious game of "hard to get" out of it. I may have been slow at getting fired up (heh) at first but as you say ESTp's are great at that, and once they have me going I have enjoyed the mental game of interacting with them tremendously. But now for sure if I knew an ESTp was wanting to do stuff with me I'd just say ok and take it from there.

[lefty]

i was preoccupied with vampires when i was young. i also had a reoccuring nightmare about werewolves and yes it does seem it could tie into the freudian concept of primitive scene. when i was sexually active as a teenager i liked forceful sex and to be bitten and as i got older i still enjoyed a bit having my throat squeezed. i can be quite prudish, go without sex for long periods of time, dislike unwanted sexual attention, but harbor a bit of a nympho tendancy inwardly.

[aka-kitsune]

I don't generally play "hard to get" games like that. If I want to go, I go, if not, I don't. Occasionally, the company I'm with will induce me to go somewhere I wouldn't normally (like Applebee's); I give in for the sake of cameraderie. But I don't tend to get dramatic and engage people to plead and beg me to do something.

Perhaps I just don't feel that anyone really would insist anyway.

But I do appreciate the occasional brazen overture...

[FDG]

Whoa. You are right on the money with this. But I never realized I felt this way, really, until you spelled it out. Very fulfilling, yes. I recently became friend with an SLE and he knows I like fast cars and motorcycles. So once this fall he pulled up in his new Audi and offered me a ride. I said I would like to but maybe another time. So he kept saying "are you sure?" and I asked if he'd let me drive (pushing him, seeing what he would say) and he said yes! I kept saying no because I was in a previous conversation with someone else who was standing right there. He finally backed down but it was kind of fun to watch him pressure me. It definitely felt good and different from most people who would accept my first answer (how boring!).

Ah so when you reject people after they insist, you actually like it?lol

(I say this because an INFp I had a brief relationship with behaved the same way)
(I can insist a lot, for say...3 months, but after that, damn, it gets boring! I can insist for hours, however after I insisted I feel bad for having done so)

[Blaze]

Whoa. You are right on the money with this. But I never realized I felt this way, really, until you spelled it out. Very fulfilling, yes. I recently became friend with an SLE and he knows I like fast cars and motorcycles. So once this fall he pulled up in his new Audi and offered me a ride. I said I would like to but maybe another time. So he kept saying "are you sure?" and I asked if he'd let me drive (pushing him, seeing what he would say) and he said yes! I kept saying no because I was in a previous conversation with someone else who was standing right there. He finally backed down but it was kind of fun to watch him pressure me. It definitely felt good and different from most people who would accept my first answer (how boring!).

infp man does this too. but sometimes he will not give in....others he will. :-) i usually pressure him though. i'll have to ask him if he likes it....i would think there could be a gender difference here.

[Kristiina]

I wouldn't really say I play hard to get. But I do expext the other person to be absolutely sure. I say things in a sort of "maybe"-tone and I expect the other person to remove the maybe. Lately, when other people are having a smoking break, I often start talking that I want a cigarette too. I don't say that I'm going to have one or that I should. I say "I want to" and the right answer is "you can't have one!". I do that with select few people. I'm afraid of someone saying, "I can give you one." :-o I don't know what I'd do. I might even smoke it depending on the circumstances.

When someone asks me my opinion, I also end up giving a maybe-response. "We could go to this restaurant. It should be okay... although it's not quite what we wanted... and it's not a nice place, but if you REALLY want, we could go there... if you REALLY REALLY think it's REALLY a good idea? Do you want to go there?". People with weak Se just can't play that game and say "okay".

[ScarlettLux]

I wouldn't really say I play hard to get. But I do expext the other person to be absolutely sure. I say things in a sort of "maybe"-tone and I expect the other person to remove the maybe. Lately, when other people are having a smoking break, I often start talking that I want a cigarette too. I don't say that I'm going to have one or that I should. I say "I want to" and the right answer is "you can't have one!". I do that with select few people. I'm afraid of someone saying, "I can give you one." :-o I don't know what I'd do. I might even smoke it depending on the circumstances.

When someone asks me my opinion, I also end up giving a maybe-response. "We could go to this restaurant. It should be okay... although it's not quite what we wanted... and it's not a nice place, but if you REALLY want, we could go there... if you REALLY REALLY think it's REALLY a good idea? Do you want to go there?". People with weak Se just can't play that game and say "okay".

Lmao, so true... this entire thread rings a familiar bell with me.

I am very wishy-washy in my decisions. I am constantly looking for some sort of solid feedback. Someone to believe in, to trust.

That's why I have problems with dating =/ Asking me what I want to do? Not a good idea. Hahaha, now I sound like a total push-over when that could be farther from the truth. It's not that I want the other person to dictate my every move, but just take the reins when I am naturally an indecisive person. Somehow, to me, a guy deciding something shows me their and their strength... it makes me feel safe. I think a lot of Victims want to feel "safe" with their Aggressor partner, who can fend off danger of all sorts =D

[eliphalet]

I wouldn't really say I play hard to get. But I do expext the other person to be absolutely sure. I say things in a sort of "maybe"-tone and I expect the other person to remove the maybe. Lately, when other people are having a smoking break, I often start talking that I want a cigarette too. I don't say that I'm going to have one or that I should. I say "I want to" and the right answer is "you can't have one!". I do that with select few people. I'm afraid of someone saying, "I can give you one." :-o I don't know what I'd do. I might even smoke it depending on the circumstances.

When someone asks me my opinion, I also end up giving a maybe-response. "We could go to this restaurant. It should be okay... although it's not quite what we wanted... and it's not a nice place, but if you REALLY want, we could go there... if you REALLY REALLY think it's REALLY a good idea? Do you want to go there?". People with weak Se just can't play that game and say "okay".

OMFG, onetreehilluver does this aaall the time, and I just wanna rip her head off. Then it really sucks cause we play this game of "Well, I'll go if you want to" back and forth, and we can't decide on anything. Sometimes I choose the opposite of what I know she wants on purpose because, well, just because. What would an ISTj say in this situation anyway?

[Kristiina]

OMFG, onetreehilluver does this aaall the time, and I just wanna rip her head off. Then it really sucks cause we play this game of "Well, I'll go if you want to" back and forth, and we can't decide on anything. Sometimes I choose the opposite of what I know she wants on purpose because, well, just because. What would an ISTj say in this situation anyway?

lol. Some time ago in some ISTj thread it was mentioned... ISTj would decide for the ENFj and he would pick the option that's the best compromise. The best for both.

[Ms. Kensington]

hm.. but how would the ISTj be playing a game? Like, yeah its a really really good idea because...? Ah I see. Like low-Se person says, sure, lets go there its fine, i dont really care. Se person seems to act like they care about where they go.

[redbaron]

Somehow, to me, a guy deciding something shows me their and their strength... it makes me feel safe. I think a lot of Victims want to feel "safe" with their Aggressor partner, who can fend off danger of all sorts =D

Yes. exactly. My husband is an ESE caregiver. Not bad but I feel like he pays too much attention to me and tries to ask me what I want all the time, never wanting to make a "wrong" decision himself and doesn't show the complete confidence I would like. I love it when he acts alone such as buying tickets for the opera without telling me and then just saying "we're going". I love that. He's getting better about it.

[xyz]

Everybody's gotta get out of their comfort zone sometime. Or else life is too boring.

[lefty]

do you think its possible that people are more than one classification? i know an estp who has caretaker characteristics.

[lefty]

Lmao, so true... this entire thread rings a familiar bell with me.

I am very wishy-washy in my decisions. I am constantly looking for some sort of solid feedback. Someone to believe in, to trust.

That's why I have problems with dating =/ Asking me what I want to do? Not a good idea. Hahaha, now I sound like a total push-over when that could be farther from the truth. It's not that I want the other person to dictate my every move, but just take the reins when I am naturally an indecisive person. Somehow, to me, a guy deciding something shows me their and their strength... it makes me feel safe. I think a lot of Victims want to feel "safe" with their Aggressor partner, who can fend off danger of all sorts =D

i love it when my istj boyfriend tells me i can't do something, because he feels its unsafe.

[lefty]

hm.. but how would the ISTj be playing a game? Like, yeah its a really really good idea because...? Ah I see. Like low-Se person says, sure, lets go there its fine, i dont really care. Se person seems to act like they care about where they go.

my theory is that the istj also serves as a playmate to the enfj.

[Wittmont]

Yeah, it's definately possible. If each person only demonstrated one specific attitude and nothing else, not only would people be really easy to type, but it would also be pretty monotonous.

We truly would be caricatures and stick men if we were nothing but our main socionics attitudes.

[Blaze]

do you think its possible that people are more than one classification? i know an estp who has caretaker characteristics.

i do. my ex husband SLE was like this.

[Kristiina]

my theory is that the istj also serves as a playmate to the enfj.

yeah, I actually agree with that. I really need people to have clear opinions and if both don't agree, then I need the other person to be able to fight for their opinion! I think the frequent response "I don't care" could be the worst thing to hear from a person. (aside from real insults of course).

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

Then after the date, he said he didn't think I was very interested in him... this confused me because I was interested in him. It was sort of like my default mode of behavior didn't work.

I get it. No, really I do. It's like to him it was watching an un-sexy bottom boy that wasn't enthusiastic. (Boring!) Whether you're naturally yang or naturally yin is beside the point, I believe. I think.... we all just want people to be proud and confident of who they are whether it be the up-front damage dealer that's all manly and sweaty or the little timid caring guy in the background that heals his boyfriend. And I think people oftentimes mistaken wanting to be led, with that oomphy Se-ness as somebody that needs to just sit there and kind of act devoid of passion....or something.

I mean, being all dominant with you is fun, but if the pleasure is just ALLLL in your head, how does he know? It's like sometimes we can be so purely passive ....it can actually turn our tops off. And if he's not a total asshole, he wants you to be happy as well as give it to you as rough as we like it.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I just can't figure out what I want. I go back and forth on it, sway here and there... At first I didn't mind being so indecisive and self-confused in this way, as others often thought it was "cute." But as I got older I got tired of being "cute."

Yeah. You want to be hot like how you view them. I get that. It's like I think self-actualized, happy people already have their duals inside them. There's really no other way to look at us when we're being that pathetically passive and 'Fuck me' ish.

'Cutie' is the worst. Gag.

[redbaron]

do you think its possible that people are more than one classification? i know an estp who has caretaker characteristics.

yeah, it's called dual type theory!

[ScarlettLux]

yeah, it's called dual type theory!

You really believe in that? I just can't take tcaudillg seriously

[Blaze]

yeah, it's called dual type theory!

i don't really get how to type yourself using this theory. but you and i seem to use our third functions more confidently than would be expected by classical socionics theory, so i am curious how you arrived at your dual type.

[Hot Scalding Gayser]

I do, however, think there just may be something to these top-bottom, yang-yin statements you are always making...

Actually I was making fun of those beliefs more than I was supporting them. You'll get me after I post more....anyways.

[lefty]

i would say there is a downside to being a victim. i know that that's almost comically obvious. now that im 30 i dont let myself get as emotional as i used to. i almost think the victim role is like similar to being a prostitute. the older i get i feel like everything is always pushing me back to taking care of myself...almost like waves pushing you back to shore. and i think men sometimes have sensed the lonely aspect of me and appealed to that, but i feel like the victim aggressor is almost such an exaggerated role that it might have more difficulty being sustained in reality. i used to feel heartbroken by men, but anymore i feel a lot of heart break being offered from men. and even they mean for me to feel that ... i dont want to anymore.

aggressors have pain, stupidity, bad choices and bullshit they have to deal with themselves. the victim role to me means to some extent that no matter what partners do or have done i had to stand by and let them feel the weight of their own choices and any lashing out on my part was limited.

it's a difficult dance. you want love to be enticing enough that you come back to it, but by coming back to it you risk it being enticing.

something else is that erich fromm said in the art of loving that sadomasochism is a false answer to love. do you think there are sadomasochistic implications to aggressor victim roles? fromm said that orgiasm, social belonging and sadomasochism dont really satifsy the answer for the need of love.

[ClaudiaM]

bump

[Reuben]

No is not an answer, it is a sign of cowardice, idiocy, and procrastination.