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Thread: IM element descriptions

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    Default IM element descriptions

    Does anyone know where to find clear and accurate definition of each of the functions. I am trying to teach someone about socionics but most of the definitions I find are a lttle to abstract for the average person to get a good understanding of what the function is about. I thought these descriptions might be okay: http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=5...er=asc&start=0

    Does anyone have any better descriptions or disagree with the ones from that link?
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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Those are not element descriptions. These are:

    - internal statics of objects
    - internal dynamics of fields
    - external statics of objects
    - external dynamics of fields
    - internal dynamics of objects
    - internal statics of fields
    - external dynamics of objects
    - external statics of fields

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Those are not element descriptions. These are:

    - internal statics of objects
    - internal dynamics of fields
    - external statics of objects
    - external dynamics of fields
    - internal dynamics of objects
    - internal statics of fields
    - external dynamics of objects
    - external statics of fields
    these are not descriptions. they describe nothing. they are definitions, more specifically very bad Ti-blather definitions.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Those are not element descriptions. These are:

    - internal statics of objects
    - internal dynamics of fields
    - external statics of objects
    - external dynamics of fields
    - internal dynamics of objects
    - internal statics of fields
    - external dynamics of objects
    - external statics of fields
    Somehow I don't think those would be useful to teach to someone new to socionics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    these are not descriptions. they describe nothing. they are definitions, more specifically very bad Ti-blather definitions.
    Wrong. They are arguably the most fundamental piece of theory to observing and implimenting Socionics in real life, in my opinion. You just have to fully understand what they mean.

    And regardless...

    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy89 View Post
    Does anyone know where to find clear and accurate definition of each of the functions.
    Last edited by Gilly; 12-23-2007 at 05:02 AM.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy89 View Post
    Somehow I don't think those would be useful to teach to someone new to socionics.
    If you introduced someone to Socionics and were able to start them off with these, they would have a good chance at developing a functional understanding of the theory in a short space of time. I wish for the life of me that someone had plopped these in my lap and insisted I learn and understand them the moment I arrived at the forum; I would do as much for newbies here if they weren't rejected as "Ti-blither" by just about everyone.

    External: observable by the senses
    Internal: deduced from information gained via the senses
    Static: not necessarily affected by the passing of time
    Dynamic: necessarily affected by the passing of time
    Object: anything represented in language by a noun
    Field: a connection between things represented by nouns

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Man these are strict logical definitions, quit piddling all over them. You're just rambling.

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    Quote Originally Posted by coolguy89 View Post
    Does anyone know where to find clear and accurate definition of each of the functions. I am trying to teach someone about socionics but most of the definitions I find are a lttle to abstract for the average person to get a good understanding of what the function is about. I thought these descriptions might be okay: http://oldforumlinkviewtopic.php?t=5...er=asc&start=0

    Does anyone have any better descriptions or disagree with the ones from that link?
    I posted Augusta's to the Articles section. Check 'em out.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Wrong. They are arguably the most fundamental piece of theory to observing and implimenting Socionics in real life, in my opinion. You just have to fully understand what they mean.
    these definitions are completel bullshit and you will never change my mind.


    end of discussion, for me.

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    those descriptions are just neat little abstract phrases. A newbie wouldn't know what they meant if he didn't understand the nature of each function. they make sense, and are fundamental in the sense that they are succinct, but not the most important.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    External: observable by the senses
    Internal: deduced from information gained via the senses
    Hmmmm....

    I think this would apply to some but not others. It doesn't entirely work for Te and Ti, for example.

    Generally speaking, it works for Si, Ni, Fe, and Se though.

    Object: anything represented in language by a noun
    Field: a connection between things represented by nouns
    Interesting. I'll have to think about this a bit. On first glance it looks good. An object is a person, place, thing, or idea. A field is a connection or relationship between people, places, things, or ideas.

    Static: not necessarily affected by the passing of time
    Dynamic: necessarily affected by the passing of time
    I don't necessarily agree with this though... I mean, everything changes over time. I tend to think of "dynamics" as "activities" or "movement". "Static" can be best understood through looking at latin...

    Personally, it helps me understand "static" when I look at the root of the word static, and other associated roots:

    sist, sta, stit

    assist, persist, circumstance, stamina, status, state, static, stable, stationary, substitute
    The root STA-STO-STIT-SIS meaning "stand" has the following 25 "everyday words".
    assist, circumstance, constable, consistent, constant, constitution, destination, destiny, distance, equidistant, establish, existence, inconsistency, instability, instantaneous, institution, obstacle, persist, reconstitute, stage, stanza, static, statue, substitution, superstitious.
    Other related words:
    Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stable Norm, Normal, healthy, homeostasis ... Stadium Sta Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Staff Distaff, ... Stake Sta Stadium Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stalactite Sta Stadium Stake Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stalagmite Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stale Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stalemate Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stalk Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stall Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stallion Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stan Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stand Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Standard Status, Statistical, State ... Stapes Ear Star Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Stat Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay State Status, Statistical, State, Standard ... Statement Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Station Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Statist Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statistic Statue Stature Statute Stay Statistic Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statue Stature Statute Stay Statistical Status, State, Standard ... Statue Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Stature Statute Stay Stature Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Statute Stay Status Statistical, State, Standard ... Statute Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Stay Stay Sta Stadium Stake Stalactite Stalagmite Stale Stalemate Stalk Stall Stallion Stan Stand Star Stat Statement Station Statist Statistic Statue Stature Statute
    So... It's not exactly something that doesn't change... it's more something that isn't changing at that very moment. Generally, I look at it as dynamics being activities and statics being states.

    If there's a red ball, the statics of it are the color, size, shape, consistency, potential, definition, etc. The dynamics would be what it's doing, what's happening to it, how it's changing, etc.

    The state of something can change. The change itself is dynamic though.

    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    these definitions are completel bullshit and you will never change my mind.


    end of discussion, for me.
    We talked about this at one point before... you ended up saying that they're not complete/total bullshit, they're just useful. If you recall, to say that it's bullshit is to say Socionics is bullshit. If you want a theory that does not implement these meanings, go back to Jung (or MBTT).
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post



    We talked about this at one point before... you ended up saying that they're not complete/total bullshit, they're just not useful.
    frankly there's no difference.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17
    frankly there's no difference.
    seeing no difference between bullshit and lack of usefulness is just gamma values...

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    This post is under construction.

    So anyways, information aspects:

    Se: the readily observable or apparent state of a person/thing/situation (color, shape, size, value, strength, speed, etc.)
    Ne: the potential or hidden state/characteristics of a person/thing/situation (hidden talents, undeveloped abilities)
    Te: the readily apparent activities of a person/thing/situation (the movement of an object or the workings of a situation)
    Fe: The internal or "beneath the surface" changes of a person/thing/situation (for example, emotional changes)

    Si:
    Ni:
    Ti:
    Fi:


    As information elements (that is, as mental processes or as used by an individual):

    Se: Seeing and understanding the outward/readily apparent traits, characteristics, or states of people and things around you. There's a big focus on strength, force, ability, and power.
    Ne: Seeing and understanding the potential, undeveloped, or hidden state/characteristics/traits/capabilities of a person/thing. An example would be seeing an object as being used for something it's not currently being used for (a shoe as a doorstop) or seeing evidence of qualities in a person that could make them be good at something else, such as undiscovered aptitudes (he'd be a good leader, actor, whatever)
    Te: Seeing and understanding the readily apparent activities of a person/thing, such as seeing the best way to accomplish something. There's a big focus on effectiveness and/or efficiency. (Though I'm not certain I understand this in SLI's, to be honest.)
    Fe: Seeing and understanding the underlying, unseen, or internal changes or activity in people/things/situations, such as someone becoming sad or the emotional climate in a situation/atmosphere becoming happier.

    Si: Seeing and understanding
    Ni: Seeing and understanding
    Ti: Seeing and understanding
    Fi: Seeing and understanding

    ("Understanding" something means that you know how to make use of information related to it, so having strong Ne, for example, could mean that you're good at making use of or exploring hidden potential in people/things.)
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    Having studied these definitions for several months and having tested them against experience I have had to conclude that internal/external and object/field (yes, extrovert/introvert too) are bogus dichotomies. They're descriptions of a similarity, not actual technically existing commonalities.

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    Quote Originally Posted by strrrng View Post
    seeing no difference between bullshit and lack of usefulness is just gamma values...


    While I don't agree, this is funny.

    ("Total bullshit" means not at all accurate, especially when you're talking about definitions. "Bullshit" can mean useless though, when used in contexts.)
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    Quote Originally Posted by labcoat View Post
    Having studied these definitions for several months and having tested them against experience I have had to conclude that internal/external and object/field (yes, extrovert/introvert too) are bogus dichotomies. They're descriptions of a similarity, not actual technically existing commonalities.
    It took me, and the only people I know of who have a working understanding of these definitions, much longer than "several months" to gain said working understanding.

    Gilligan, for example, has a working understanding of these definitions (at least the ones that I've discussed with him). Anndelise has a good conceptual understanding of them. I'm not sure about others. I very much doubt there are more than a few (if that) other people here that understand this part of the theory though.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy

    While I don't agree, this is funny.

    ("Total bullshit" means not at all accurate, especially when you're talking about definitions. "Bullshit" can mean useless though, when used in contexts.)
    he was using bullshit in a subjective manner, more like he didn't like the definitions (Ti blather)...so it seemed like his Te was just coming out.

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    perhaps (that's what I assumed you meant, and chances are you're right... though I have a difficult time with the concept that something is useless just because you don't understand how to use it...)

    Personally though, the whole theory of Socionics has made much, much more sense and has been a lot more useful (and functions have been easier to spot in others) once I was able to grasp most of these meanings. Like I said though, it took a while.
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    I started here (and, to some extent, here). This is also a good resource.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I think this would apply to some but not others. It doesn't entirely work for Te and Ti, for example.

    Generally speaking, it works for Si, Ni, Fe, and Se though.
    Sorry, but my arrogant Joy alarm is going off. Please explain yourself. Do you have any proposals?

    I don't necessarily agree with this though... I mean, everything changes over time.
    Yes, because you're dynamic The Constitution of the US hasn't changed in a while. There's Ti for you.

    So... It's not exactly something that doesn't change... it's more something that isn't changing at that very moment. Generally, I look at it as dynamics being activities and statics being states.
    This is exactly the same as what I'm saying. It has a "state" that is not necessarily affected by time. It could, but the point of observing it with a static function is that is has not.

    And niffweed, go get some pussy. You're just plain wrong this time, ole buddy ole pal. I use these definitions daily in my typings of people and they work just fine.

    For the record I am of the opinion that this site:

    http://www.socionics.us/theory/information.shtml

    which Ezra already posted, is probably the best source for learning about the functions.

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    Thanks for the help all. @ Gilly: I don't fully understand the definitions you have given me yet so I would not try to teach them to someone else, but I will work on understanding them.
    “No psychologist should pretend to understand what he does not understand... Only fools and charlatans know everything and understand nothing.” -Anton Chekhov

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    Personally though, the whole theory of Socionics has made much, much more sense and has been a lot more useful (and functions have been easier to spot in others) once I was able to grasp most of these meanings. Like I said though, it took a while.
    yeah, same.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    Personally though, the whole theory of Socionics has made much, much more sense and has been a lot more useful (and functions have been easier to spot in others) once I was able to grasp most of these meanings. Like I said though, it took a while.
    +2

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Sorry, but my arrogant Joy alarm is going off. Please explain yourself. Do you have any proposals?
    A lot of Ti isn't observed through the senses. I'm not sure that anything Ti is, really... not without being connected to another information element.

    Here's how I see internal vs. external.

    external: readily apparent, readily observable, measurable, immediate, outward, etc.
    internal: hidden, below the surface, inward, underlying, abstract, etc.


    Yes, because you're dynamic
    I had considered that possibility and decided to post what I did anyways because I knew you'd correct me if I'm wrong. I personally don't think that dynamic types can ever really understand statics the way static types do. All of our conscious functions are either static or dynamic, after all.

    It has a "state" that is not necessarily affected by time. It could, but the point of observing it with a static function is that is has not.
    I see static as a snapshot of reality, in a way. Whether it changes or not doesn't affect that snapshot. If (when) it changes, there will be new snapshots, sort of like a slide show, I suppose.

    But that doesn't really capture my understanding of the concept of static. Static means state, or state of being. So in a way...

    static: what it is
    dynamic: what it's doing

    But again, I can only see through dynamic eyes. I can only see statics from the perspective of dynamics.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Those are not element descriptions. These are:

    - internal statics of objects
    - internal dynamics of fields
    - external statics of objects
    - external dynamics of fields
    - internal dynamics of objects
    - internal statics of fields
    - external dynamics of objects
    - external statics of fields
    I'm still trying to wrap my head around a few of them, but for the most part, these actually seem like really good definitions. Providing these definitions plus examples seems like a much better way to start someone off with socionics than saying that Ti is "structural logic" and Te is "business logic" and Ni is "intuition of time" and blah blah blah. It would also be a good way to avoid a lot of the misconceptions about the functions that pop up.
    delta nf (?) ... 4w5 (?)

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    There are two ways to avoid misconceptions:

    1. Explain everything in great detail, providing lots of examples of what you mean
    2. Use unintelligable definitions and descriptions
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Wrong. They are arguably the most fundamental piece of theory to observing and implimenting Socionics in real life, in my opinion. You just have to fully understand what they mean.
    That is a big "just". Like Joy said, it takes a long time, and even though you understand the element dichotomies intuitively, I doubt that you could explain them correctly to another person ("observable by the senses" doesn't even begin to capture what external really means).

    Understanding of socionics has to propagate back and forth between observation and theory; you can't have one without the other, and this is how I still am learning socionics.

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    Let's fly now Gilly's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Rick View Post
    There are two ways to avoid misconceptions:

    1. Explain everything in great detail, providing lots of examples of what you mean
    2. Use unintelligable definitions and descriptions
    To you, maybe. Don't undercut what you don't understand.

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    Joy, I like "measurable/unmeasurable" for external/internal.

    Again, I'll mention the constitution as something that hasn't been affected by time. In a TeSi sense, yes, the actual piece of paper and the ink have "changed," but their TiSe effect on the way the country is governed is not.
    Last edited by Gilly; 12-24-2007 at 03:40 PM.

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    Chapter I

    In which the Keep Vitharn is established and passes from the first generation of rule to the second.

    Count Vitharn, who built and appointed his keep from the mud of Dementia, gathered to himself any who would pledge themselves as liege. Nearby tribes of Fanatics were united as vassals to protect his lands and line, and thus the Count lived out his days in the Isles. He and his Countess Mawean bore Csaran and Nweala, the first son and daughter of Vitharn.

    Csaran's mother and father believed that with the proper political influence, Csaran could certainly usurp Sheogorath and carry the Shivering Isles into a prosperous age. For his part, Count Vitharn refused even to acknowledge Sheogorath, thinking himself and his heirs irrefutable rulers of the Isles.

    This, of course, amused the Madgod to no end, and so he allowed the marriage of Csaran to Sheen-in-Glade, daughter of an Argonian midwife who believed that the mortal sphere would afford her daughter nothing but hatred and oppression.

    Sheen-in-Glade was as excellent a Countess to Csaran as any in the Isles could ask for, wanting nothing but to bring pride and honor to her adopted house and Court. For years her mind was untouched, even living as she did in the heart of Dementia. Alas, none may reside too long in the Isles without the blessing of Lord Sheogorath, and so Sheen-in-Glade was finally pushed to the brink by the infidelity of her Husband, the Count.

    Csaran was obsessively nepotistic, and distrustful of anyone with whom he shared no blood relation including his bride. Though Sheen-in-Glade bore a son by the Count (who disappeared from the Isles in his twentieth year), it is known that the two shared their bed with decreasing frequency as Csaran's paranoia grew, and he found himself in the arms of his birth-sister Nweala, who bore of their incestuous affair the heir apparent, Cesrien. There are those of us who remember personally the reign of Cesrien, and his contribution to the fall of Vitharn.


    Chapter II

    In which the birth of Count Cesrien heralds a glorious, bloody, and brief age for Vitharn.

    Violent-natured and quick of temper, Cesrien sought enemies where there were none. His early days on the seat of Vitharn saw the extermination of every tribe of man, mer, or beast within sight of the keep, until none were left.

    During his brief reign, much of the southeastern coastline of Dementia was unsafe to travel, littered with the corpses of trespassers in the lands of Vitharn, staked to trees as territorial markers. Beside his sadistic temper, Count Cesrien of Vitharn was known also for his slow wit and ailing health.

    Indeed, Cesrien was born with legs that seemed mismatched in length, and breathed with a laborious rasp. As a youth, tutors were hard-pressed to school the dull boy. Midwives and nurses surrounded him, attending his every ailment with balms and vapors from every corner of the Isles, but when he came of age he sent them away, often becoming violent in their dismissal.

    Perhaps showing the influence of his father, Cesrien became increasingly introverted, allowing only a select few courtiers in his presence. He was seen in pubic only when organizing his vassal Fanatics for yet another raid on the countryside.

    Atypically adhering to the desperate counsel of his advisors, Cesrien paused in his plundering to take a wife and ensure the continuation of Vitharn's noble line. The increasingly ill Count chose a vibrant peasant women as his betrothed, from a Heretic Commune in the wilds of Mania. Indeed, Countess Jideen could not have been any more his opposite. Vassal Fanatics, long loyal to their ancestral agreement with Count Vitraen, were inflamed by this heresy, and tensions grew as the health of Cesrien finally failed, and his young son, Cirion, ascended the throne of Vitharn.

    Chapter III

    In which conflict besets Vitharn and the Irenic Count Cirion is overwhelmed.

    Young Count Cirion had scarcely been seen in public before his hasty coronation in the bailey of Vitharn Keep. Some say he still bore bruises from beatings at the feeble hand of his father during his final hours during the ceremony. Had Cirion been old enough to govern, his gentle, reserved demeanor may have been enough to ease the seething tension among the Vassal tribe, but his mother, Countess Jideen was forced to assume many of the duties her husband had so long ignored.

    By all accounts, Jideen was a fit Countess; loved by her people -- but the leaders of the Vassal Fanatics could not contain indefinitely their personal sentiments of outrage at her Manic heritage. Despite her exceedingly tactful attempts at diplomacy, the animosity against her was deep-seated, and grew over the years. It is perhaps admirable that the Vassals remained true to the oaths so long.

    When Cirion finally came of age to rule, the sheepish boy-Count tried in earnest to ascend gracefully, but his fear of the world was so great that even the shadow of a passing bird would startle him visibly. He was all but unable to address the people publicly, and when he attempted to placate the Vassals -- still outraged by his Mother's heritage -- he could scarcely contain his fright, and some say that he even soiled himself before fleeing the throne chamber.


    Certain as the march of fate, the tolerance of the Vassal Fanatics snapped, and warriors encircled Vitharn. The Count's personal guards were ill-suited to repel the attack and the siege lasted a single day. Since the day of that battle, no living soul has wandered away from Vitharn. Local myth tells of a tireless struggle between the spirits of the Fanatic vassals and Vitharn's meager defenders, damned by the treachery of Fanatics and the cowardice of Cirion to replay their final moments in perpetuity.

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    Quote Originally Posted by niffweed17 View Post
    frankly there's no difference.
    I think they are useful for Ti types.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    Joy, I like "measurable/unmeasurable" for external/internal.
    It works well for a lot of things, but not everything. There are Si things, for example, that I wouldn't call measurable. Personally, I have yet to find and English word that encompasses the meaning of internal or external.

    Again, I'll mention the constitution as something that hasn't been affected by time. In a TeSi sense, yes, the actual piece of paper and the ink have "changed," but their TiSe effect on the way the country is governed is not.
    Relative to what?
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    What about Si isn't measurable?

    Relative to time, silly. Yeah, ok, the Te manifestation of how the rules are followed obviously changes as well, but nonetheless, the rules themselves do not.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    What about Si isn't measurable?
    Yeah, really. I think Si can be measured in relation to a given system's setpoints, especially -Si. The closer to the set point you are, the better the -Si.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Gilly View Post
    What about Si isn't measurable?
    Anything experienced internally, for one. Maybe that's just my perspective of it though.

    Relative to time, silly. Yeah, ok, the Te manifestation of how the rules are followed obviously changes as well, but nonetheless, the rules themselves do not.
    Have not. Everything changes at some point. The length of time it stays the same is relative to the length of time that other things have remained the same. This country isn't that old. I'm not familiar with the length of time that other systems of government in other countries have been in place, so I can't really make any comparisons. I see all of this as irrelevant though.
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    Ok, HAVE not. Regardless, there is a constant state not necessarily affected by the pssage of time; these rules HAVE NOT been affected by time. Thus, my point.

    The things we experience internally could be measured if we were cut open. We don't necessarily measure them, but they can be measured.

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    eh

    I'm not agreeing or disagreeing, but I give up on the measurable Si thing.
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    The problem with the external/internal statics/dynamics objects/fields "definitions" is that you have to refer to other more descriptive conceptions of the IM Elements to "check" that your interpretation is right.

    If we were to think of Fi as "internal statics of fields" (or one could use any other IM Element as an example; I'm picking Fi at random), without considering how we want it to come out, we might have all sorts of ideas of what Fi is. One might, for example, use Ti in a way that seems "internal" and thus think that it's Fi. Etc.

    So, one must constantly rely on other information to "adjust" what "internal" or "external," etc. mean, to make sure that ones conception of the IM Element "comes out" the right way.

    Because of that, these aren't really definitions. They are merely dichotomies used to pinpoint the coordinates of each IM Element. I see no reason why calling Fi "internal statics of fields" is any better than calling it "compliant constructivist serious."

    But if any three dichotomies that can be used to pinpoint an IM Element are just as good as the ones mentioned, then how can they be "the definition"?

    They are all equivalent definitions, in the sense of mathematical definitions that pinpoint which IM Element one is talking about...however, none of them are true definitions, because one always has to refer to the *real* definitions which are the descriptive conceptions that evolved from Jung, Augusta, etc., against which one has to check this internal/statics/fields stuff which I think came from an early attempt to make Socionics seem more "scientific" rather than an legitimate effort to make it clearer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Jonathan View Post
    Because of that, these aren't really definitions. They are merely dichotomies used to pinpoint the coordinates of each IM Element. I see no reason why calling Fi "internal statics of fields" is any better than calling it "compliant constructivist serious."
    Oh but they are, if you understand them conceptually. Your definition only defines Fi types within the abstract system; it does not effectively describe the manifestation of the function itself.

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