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Thread: activity relations (as opposed to duality)

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    Default activity relations (as opposed to duality)

    From this thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Joy
    I said this about SEE's in another thread:

    They also use me as a resource for information. If there's something they want to know about, they ask me because they know that even if I don't know anything about it, I'll dig up a bunch of information, sort through it and find what's useful and most likely accurate, and then organize it for them in a manner which makes sense to them.
    I'm generally good at finding and sorting through a bunch of information from various sources, getting a feel for the subject/concept, which sources are most reliable, and which information makes the most sense. I find that SEE's (and a couple of people who are either SEE or IEE) tend to ask me to do this for them more than any other type. I find out what they're trying to accomplish with the information, then find whatever information would be useful to them. If I give them a lot of information, I generally summarize the information and give them an example or analogy.
    I think that activity relations are easier to develop than duality for two reasons:

    1.) It's easier to fulfill someone's hidden agenda with your first function than it is with your second. In a way this is because (going back to a theory I mentioned a while ago) in a way, the first function is who we are, and the second is what we do. The first function is default mode. It's what we're in which we're most confident. When in a confusing or difficult situation, it's the function we turn to. This also explains why activity relations are so enjoyable. It's fun when someone can't get enough of what you do best, especially when others don't encourage it as much (from my observations we usually have to filter our words/actions from our first function through our second and third to make sure we don't piss people off). Our activity partners readily admire our use of our first function, something which we enjoy getting sincere compliments on almost as much as our hidden agendas.

    Perhaps an example of this would be myself and my massage therapist. We usually talk through my massages (lol), and she's often said that she loves the way I explain things. She said that even when there's a lot of complicated information that would require time and effort for most people to really understand, I explain it in such a way that allows even her to understand it, which (according to her) is saying a lot. "And not only can I understand it pretty easily, it's also an interesting way of looking at things."

    2.) We'd rather ignore our 7th function when we can. Our 7th function isn't difficult, but it can be rather annoying when people want you to use it more than you already feel you should. The interactions between the third and seventh functions are largely how duals balance each other. We're likely to feel compelled to behave a certain way when it comes to our third functions because it's what's expected of us or what we're supposed to do. Our dual's tell us that it's not necessary, perhaps even in an irritable manner (it's their 7th function, after all). This doesn't necessarily immediately stop us from feeling compelled to behave that way or do a certain thing, and we end up going back and forth a little bit with our dual's until a solution is reached. Sometimes it's reached by our dual allaying our concerns, and sometimes it's reached by our dual conceding that we're probably right and we should be acting that way or doing that thing. This is probably the top cause of whatever friction there is in dual relations (the second is possibly our expecting our dual's first function to be infallible).

    When we're interacting with our activity partners, they won't expect us to address things related to our 7th functions. Instead, they may expect us to address things related to our 8th (and their 3rd) functions. When people ask us to use our 8th function, it can be fun for a little bit, then seamlessly turn back to our 2nd functions (because we see them as being more important). Our activity partner appreciates that when they bring up their concerns related to their 3rd function, we entertain them briefly (can be sort of fun) and then in effect tell them that what's really important is the information related to their 5th function, the function that they have a greater need for fulfillment of than any other function (yet didn't realize it).

    There are other reasons that activity relations are easy/enjoyable as well, of course, such as the dichotomies (we share the positivist vs. negativist and tactics vs. strategists dichotomies, yet one person is still an asker while the other is a declarer, which helps make for enjoyable conversation). Of course, there are also reasons that activity relations aren't as beneficial or stable as duality relations (such as temperament compatibility, which is a really big deal).
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    Very good post...... will have go through it again and see if there are any parts I disagree with when I have more time. Anyway I like it.
    Suomea

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    Well I do think that someone asking me to use the 7th function is annoying after some time when im with my lookalike.

    and the activity partner does not ask me, youre right.

    BUT i do sometimes make fun of their polr. before i realize what im doing.

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    I come bearing an example of a scenario which illustrates why duality is better/healthier/more balanced than activity relations.

    Disclaimer: What I'm about to say is based on my opinion of someone's type, however, it's possible that not everyone agrees with my typing of this individual. (He mentions his mirror in this quote, but I'm more paying attention to FDG's actions than to the ISxj.)

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I think that more than being bold people think I'm stupid at doing certain things, especially ISxjs (like training when it's very cold, mountain climbing etc etc)
    FDG, in typical Se dominant fashion, is showing disregard for his 7th function and strongly favoring his 1st function. Basically, when someone expresses concern over our lack of attention to our 7th function, we generally say that we know what we need to know and are someone irritated that they thought we didn't, and that it's the matters related to our first function that really matter.

    (If someone said "you're going to get sick or injured if you do stuff like that" he might say something to the effect of "I know how to avoid getting sick or injured. I hardly every get sick. In fact, most people get sick a lot more often than I do. Weren't you sick a few weeks ago? And six months before that? I haven't been sick in years. I'm a lot healthier than you are, so you can shut the fuck up and mind your own business." In this situation, this would be a good example of irritation when others tell you that you need to pay more attention to your 7th function than you already think you do. It also fits with the descriptions of the 7th function which say it's "aggressive" or "arrogant". Obviously, his response may differ depending on who the comment about his 7th function was coming from, but you get the general idea.)

    If he was with his activity partner, his activity partner would be less likely to offer criticism or concern regarding her 4th function (his 7th function), and this lack of concern may result in the couple being less balanced and effective. If she did express concern regarding her 4th function (his 7th function), he may respond by telling her that they're strong or that they can do it or offer some other Se motivation, which his activity partner would most likely readily accept and enjoy. Perhaps he (or she?) would end up sick or injured at some point as a result of this lack of attention to Si.

    If he was with his dual, his dual would express concerns about her 3rd function (his 7th function), but wouldn't let it go as easily as his activity partner would. It would take more effort to calm her concerns about her 3rd function. The idea is that while it may not be as fun, it's better for us because it gives the partnership a better balance in every function.

    Our hidden agenda is an area in which we want to believe we're strong. Our dual seeking function is an area which we very much need but for which we are less likely to hold illusions of strength. A Se dominant saying something like "cmon, we're strong, we can do it!" would energize someone with a Se hidden agenda, but someone with a Se dual seeking function would be more likely to say something along the lines of "maybe you're strong, but I'm not as strong as you are and I'm not sure I can do this... and what about *insert repetition of her concern for her 3rd function (his 7th function) here*?"

    Now, going back to what FDG said, this time focusing on the ISxj:

    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    I think that more than being bold people think I'm stupid at doing certain things, especially ISxjs (like training when it's very cold, mountain climbing etc etc)
    People with Se for their 7th function do stuff like that sometimes, too (not showing proper concern for their Si PoLR in favor of their Se hidden agenda). If they're with a someone with Si for a 7th function, chances are that person is contributing to the ENxj's disregard for Si. If they're with someone with Si for an 8th function and Se for a 7th function, the response would likely be more along the lines of "if you want to use Se effectively, you need to take Si things into consideration... so don't go running when it's below 0 outside". (Keep in mind that ISxj's are excellent at "budgeting" Se. They use what they have effectively and try to avoid spending it in excess, which is just the kind of input that ENxj's need in order to avoid burn out/illness/injury.)
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    Creepy-Diana

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    The example assumes that an ISxj would think FDG's stupid for doing that specific thing, but the specifics aren't really important. It's the overall idea that's being presented that matters. What he said just gave me an idea, that's all. Assume for the sake of the example that whatever it is that FDG wants to do does have a degree of potential danger to it, such as frostbite or whatever... so I guess, when he says "cold", assume that it's really cold.
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    Joy, I don't like this stuff. An ISxj telling me I'm being stupid at takin too many risks could as well be trying to protect my Si PoLR. I am against starting threads over questioning people's types honestly, I won't even try to reply to this stuff, it only added to my dislike towards you.

    The fact is, I've never gotten sick or injuried from it. Besides, I agree entirely with Diana's posts, but I also think it sometimes might not be type related? I've seen even say, ESFjs overdoing themselves that way.

    Your analysis of just one, only one sentence of mine over all the posts I have done is also an extreme example of a logical fallacy and I won't even comment how absurd it is that you can make a case only over it. It's honestly surprising to me that somebody cannot consider some basic principles of argumentation when she's going to make such an important point like using a person as an example for a thread of his :S what if you're wrong there, even the first post will be completely wrong :S I think you should truly double-check more things before writing them down.

    The fact that your information may be easy to understand doesn't imply its correctness, basically. You didn't even try to "prove" my type there, you just started with the supposition I'm SLE and worked your way up form there. That's not exactly a procedure that leads to correct, unbiased results.

    I don't know how you do it, but every time I read a post of yours, you're able to spoil my mood. Nobody in the world has the same capability.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG
    Joy, I don't like this stuff. An ISxj telling me I'm being stupid at takin too many risks could as well be trying to protect my Si PoLR.
    Yep. That's what I was saying they do for ENxj's, something an ESxp may not do as well.

    I am against starting threads over questioning people's types
    This thread has NOTHING to do with you. I thought of an example because of something you said, that's all. The idea in the example works whether you personally Se dominant or Ni creative (because, like I said, it's not about you specifically). I'm sorry if I gave you the impression that I was trying to make a case for your type. (If I was trying to do that, I would have gone about it entirely differently, and I most certainly wouldn't have done it in this thread. )
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    It's okay.
    Obsequium amicos, veritas odium parit

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    I think activity partners sometimes go along with each other's ideas easily, sometimes too easily. Has anyone else noticed this?
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    Makes sense.
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    Our hidden agenda is an area in which we want to believe we're strong. Our dual seeking function is an area which we very much need but for which we are less likely to hold illusions of strength.
    not sure i agree with this part. for myself i feel much stronger in dual seeking than hidden agenda. like, i absolutely hate throwing parties or having to do anything that gets Fe mood going. i'm not good at it and i definitely need help with this. for dual seeking, i feel like i can do this. not as well as somebody who is leading or creative in this area, but well enough to not need it from somebody else or miss it too much if i don't get it.

    perhaps this is different for rationals vs irrationals?

    ILE

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    I think it's easy to be unaware of how much we need our dual seeking function until it's actually being fulfilled. Even then, perhaps it's easy to not entirely realize how important it is to you until you find yourself without it.
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    Quote Originally Posted by FDG View Post
    Joy, I don't like this stuff. An ISxj telling me I'm being stupid at takin too many risks could as well be trying to protect my Si PoLR. I am against starting threads over questioning people's types honestly, I won't even try to reply to this stuff, it only added to my dislike towards you.

    The fact is, I've never gotten sick or injuried from it. Besides, I agree entirely with Diana's posts, but I also think it sometimes might not be type related? I've seen even say, ESFjs overdoing themselves that way.

    Your analysis of just one, only one sentence of mine over all the posts I have done is also an extreme example of a logical fallacy and I won't even comment how absurd it is that you can make a case only over it. It's honestly surprising to me that somebody cannot consider some basic principles of argumentation when she's going to make such an important point like using a person as an example for a thread of his :S what if you're wrong there, even the first post will be completely wrong :S I think you should truly double-check more things before writing them down.

    The fact that your information may be easy to understand doesn't imply its correctness, basically. You didn't even try to "prove" my type there, you just started with the supposition I'm SLE and worked your way up form there. That's not exactly a procedure that leads to correct, unbiased results.

    I don't know how you do it, but every time I read a post of yours, you're able to spoil my mood. Nobody in the world has the same capability.
    I'll support you on the people telling me shit I do is dumb when they don't understand. In fact, I've gone running when it was cold outside and I had a pretty bad cough, and I've been totally fine. Better even.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Joy View Post
    I think it's easy to be unaware of how much we need our dual seeking function until it's actually being fulfilled. Even then, perhaps it's easy to not entirely realize how important it is to you until you find yourself without it.
    perhaps. myself, it makes me think one of two things: either become more aware of your dual seeking and you develop it as you get older or i am SLE not ILE. but either way, i feel like i need way more help with hidden agenda than with dual seeking.


    @Salawa: that's what i've been pondering for sure.

    ILE

    those who are easily shocked.....should be shocked more often

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    Are you now thinking that discojoe is an SEE, Joy?
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    No.
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