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Thread: Richard Wagner

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    Default Richard Wagner

    Which type was he?

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    Opening passage of his biography:

    he contents of these volumes have been written down directly
    from my dictation, over a period of several years, by my friend
    and wife, who wished me to tell her the story of my life. It was
    the desire of both of us that these details of my life should be
    accessible to our family and to our sincere and trusted friends;
    and we decided therefore, in order to provide against a possible
    destruction of the one manuscript, to have a small number of
    copies printed at our own expense. As the value of this
    autobiography consists in its unadorned veracity, which, under
    the circumstances, is its only justification, therefore my
    statements had to be accompanied by precise names and dates;
    hence there could be no question of their publication until some
    time after my death, should interest in them still survive in our
    descendants, and on that point I intend leaving directions in my
    will.
    The contents of these volumes have been written down directly
    from my dictation, over a period of several years,
    by my friend
    and wife,

    role

    who wished me to tell her the story of my life.

    vulnerable

    It was
    the desire of both of us that these details of my life should be
    accessible to our family and to our sincere and trusted friends;

    - conscious/unconscious transition rationale;

    suggestive; complex relationship here.

    and we decided therefore, in order to provide against a possible
    destruction of the one manuscript, to have a small number of
    copies printed at our own expense.

    HA reaching to id.

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    Although SEI is often thought of as a "default" type assumption for composers and other artists, I don't think the method you suggest is really reliable.

    Let me say that idea of typings text is very interesting (and I would say that I'm interested in typing texts themselves, which is even a different thing from typing people by texts they have written). However, what you're doing is taking one piece of text that's just a sort of practical introduction, and isn't even necessarily indicative of the heart of what Wagner was all about. I mean, we all write practical sorts of things....think of the emails people write for business or personal errands. Do we really want to be typed by that?

    But even if this were a representative passage that got to the depth of Wagner's character, how do you justify the decisions you've made here?

    So he's dictated his autobiography to his wife. Why does that mean he's acc-? Are you thinking that the fact that it was "over a period of years" must refer to just because he mentions years (time)? And if so, why would it be role? He merely said that he dictated something. People of all types probably dictate things. He was busy and he had a devoted wife who wrote down his every word. So?

    His wife wanted him to tell the story of his life. How do you get PoLR from that?

    He wants his friends to know about his life. Why is that suggestive ?

    He had some additional copies printed so the manuscript wouldn't get lost. Why is that HA anything, let alone HA?

    I think you simply decided he's SEI, and then you read these things into what wrote in that little letter/intro thing. I don't see how apart from having already decided on a type, one could possibly come up with those things from that passage, sorry.


    For what it's worth, Socionics benchmarks by Russian Socionists think Wagner as SLE. I can see why, although I used to think of him as acc-Ni before I knew about Socionics.

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    The fascist type.

    I'd say he was an EIE. Listen to five minutes of 'Ride of the Valkyries' and you will be in agreement.
    Ideas don't determine who's right. Power determines who's right. And I have the power. So I'm right.

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    Notice the characteristic SEI cleft lip.





    He seems to have had only weak awareness of political motives; in fact, what political intrigues he engaged himself in were always problematic for him. was his weakness in every regard.

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    i've heard wagner typed as SLE and EIE by teh russians. see here. i have no personal opinion and am merely passing along this information.

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    Well we should not be given to arrogance....

    I actually completed a paper on Wagner last week. I am quite versed on the details of his life. I floated around EIE, IEI, ILI, LII... even LSE. None of them fit; indeed, only SEI truely captures his character. (I tried LSI and no, I feel no supervision with regard to Wagner.)

    If you think about it, it actually makes a lot of sense. Wagner knew how to create a scene, skillfully interweaving plot elements to create dramatic effect.

    :Edited for factual accuracy.:

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    Here's a good source on Wagner: http://users.utu.fi/hansalmi/wagner.html

    And more about his personality: http://query.nytimes.com/gst/fullpag...=&pagewanted=1
    It is easier for the eye of a camel to pass through a rich man than for a needle to enter the kingdom of heaven.

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    Actually wait, let me check that out on "Triumph of the Will".... You may be right about that, ifmd95.

    ...Yes, you are. OK, let me take that out of my post, because it's not factually accurate.

    Yes, I meant SEI. Sorry.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    Wagner knew how to create a scene, skillfully interweaving plot elements to create dramatic effect.
    You often have interesting ideas and insights, but what I don't get is what seem to me to be arbitrary reasons. Why would knowing "how to create a scene, skillfully interweaving plot elements to create dramatic effect" prove SEI? Surely there were good dramatists who weren't SEI?

    Wagner had strong political sentiments that got him in trouble. But even if that demonstrated weak or devalued , why would it prove PoLR?

    Similarly, you had something in there about some that you detected must have been his 7th function. If you got the impression of , why would you conclude that he was expressing his 7th function?

    I suppose we should also ask, if Wagner was SEI, whether that's his information metabolism or his information exertion type.

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    Metabolism. His exertion type appears to have been ESFj.

    Another citation:
    How deeply the homeless artist, hard pressed by life and tossed
    to and fro, longed to feel himself at home in a sympathetic
    family circle, was proved by the fact that a year after his
    friend's death he married his widow, and from that time forward
    became a most loving father to the seven children that had been
    left behind.
    How deeply the homeless artist, hard pressed by life and tossed
    to and fro,

    -

    longed to feel himself at home in a sympathetic
    family circle,

    This seems + slave to me

    was proved by the fact that a year after his
    friend's death he married his widow,

    metabolism, slave

    and from that time forward
    became a most loving father to the seven children that had been
    left behind.

    metabolism, slave

    In this entire statement, only generalities are named, and they are all generalities of role. Whenever you talk about general capacities of a person or thing in the context of a social situation, you are using your role function.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg

    -
    Okay, that passage, by itself, seemed to suggest . Where is this from by the way?
    Anyhow, how can you tell from the passage whether it's "+" or "-"?

    Whenever you talk about general capacities of a person or thing in the context of a social situation, you are using your role function.
    Why?

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    It's from his biography, Mein Leiben (Project Gutenberg has it) and I can tell its sign by virtue of its suggestion of hardship and difficulty.

    Why?
    Because you don't have specifics. If you had a detailed understanding, then the function wouldn't be weak, would it? So it's an acceptor in the context of an original product of your own creation, and you are describing what society is like in view of that which you have created. Because it is completely of your own creation, that which populates it is appropriately formless and general. Of course, your dual can give it form and meaning by supplanting the arbitrarity with detail.

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    I think the case for Beta for Wagner is very strong, whether EIE or SLE I can't say.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Quote Originally Posted by Expat
    I think the case for Beta for Wagner is very strong, whether EIE or SLE I can't say.
    It's so cute how you take inferior positions just to maintain your sense of order.... It's not like I'm asking you to sell your soul by considering my point.

    Another quote from Mein Leiben, taken AT RANDOM.

    I took care to
    understand the grave Shakespearean theme only in this sense. I
    could see only the gloomy strait-laced viceroy, his heart aflame
    with the most passionate love for the beautiful novice, who,
    while she beseeches him to pardon her brother condemned to death
    for illicit love, at the same time kindles the most dangerous
    fire in the stubborn Puritan's breast by infecting him with the
    lovely warmth of her human emotion.
    Again, -Fe, with a complementary discussion of +Fi. (and you can see the slave Si too)

    Expat, even Augusta was aware of dual-type theory. (she explicitly hints at the phenomenon in one of her letters as a rationale for type confusion, or "multitypeness") If you like I can link to it, though I suspect you've read these letters already, yes? There is no meaning to avoiding discussion of it any longer.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    It's so cute how you take inferior positions just to maintain your sense of order.... It's not like I'm asking you to sell your soul by considering my point.
    It's so "cute" how you presume to know my motivations in joining this discussion.
    , LIE, ENTj logical subtype, 8w9 sx/sp
    Quote Originally Posted by implied
    gah you're like the shittiest ENTj ever!

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    Then why didn't you participate in the debate, other than just siding with one side or the other? Why didn't you offer rationale? In the absence of concrete data as regards your intentions, I am left only to assume a connection to your fundamental empiricist motive.

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    @Expat:
    Alright, so you had a rationale to join the discussion on the basis of either +Ti or -Ti. I'm goiing to assume that you did it on +Ti. For you to label him successfully, you need +Ne, which you will deduce the final form of on the basis of a tight -Ni sequential analysis. However, it will be on the basis of empiricist -Ti that you make the analysis in the first place, so your range of observation is restrained to what empiricism deems profitable in recognizing as dichotomous.

    But I'm not sure where -Fi and -Fe are coming into that, though I wish I did....

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    Quote Originally Posted by tcaudilllg
    I can tell its sign by virtue of its suggestion of hardship and difficulty.
    Apart from whether the passage suggests hardship and difficulty, why would mentioning something about hardship and difficulty mean one was expressing
    "-"...i.e., blocked with ?

    Are you saying that that comes with some sort of suggestion of struggle and drama is necessarily Alpha ?
    And in comparison, the comes with the suggestion of a comfortable, relaxing, soothing, home-like atmosphere is Beta ? ...because it's "+"?

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    In the Classical Composers thread: http://www.the16types.info/vbulletin...hread.php/5550

    EIE and SLE were both suggested.

    I had always thought EIE and would not have thought to to type him SLE. I'm not sure how a SLE classical composer would express himself and how it might be shown through Wagner's writings over a typing of EIE .

    One thing is that I don't see a SLE making a piece of music that is around 16 hours long (and subjectively very tedious)...although admittedly that can be performed as four distinct operas (...but still, they are also long and tedious ).

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